BDSM and step families

[catalina_francisco]

Have to reflect Francisco's response. Children are human, parents are human, D/s couples are human......they are far from perfect and I would challenge anyone who professed to be so. The one thing you learn real quick when you have children or live in a household where they come under your care.....no matter how good your intentions, you are not always going to get it right and nor are they. Would be great if they came with an instruction manual and remote control, but they don't. When you include the dynamics of step families where there can be any number of underlying issues from both past and present, you are adding a whole new set of variables which require careful and caring work on a day to day basis.

Add to that under no circumstances do I believe a child shoud come under the agreements of a D/s relationship in terms of D/s rules and control, and who gets to make them......they do not have the maturity or opportunity to consent and thus are then made non-consenting participants whose rights as a child have been abused. If they are of an age where it is acceptable for them to know the type relationship their parent/s are in as in our case I think it is okay to explain as little or as much as you feel is necessary, but still is not okay to make them part of the D/s relationship and conditions you have entered into and should not be even considered to be acceptable to be so. If I knew a parent consented to include their child under the rules of the Dominant as one s/he has the right to control in whatever manner s/he sees fit, as a professional counsellor/social worker and parent I would have to seriously consider whether it required investigation on grounds of child abuse.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

I am honored that so many replies have arrived in this thread in My absense..wonderful well thought out and serious. I regret that I won't be answering each one individually as it would take an entire page with Myself running the entire length!

Of course as in all things there is no absolute right or wrong answer but points of view from the test of time are invaluable.

Unfortunately I see many relationships skid off of the map due to the Dominant...with the step children...shaking their heads in disbelief when they wake up one day to find themselves subless due to either an inability or a lack of desire to give bounderies to their children that would be expected in any relationship. The lack of follow through...whether W/we like to face it or not...is more difficult for many submissives to fathom than it might be in a vanilla relationship.

Communication is the first step but follow through must be the next...if the "parent" is not willing to at least try to maintain consistent boundaries for their children would it not be fair to accept the submissives needs to move out of the D/s relationship gracefully at some point?

D/s or not, I think anytime a step family is formed and there is little or no control over the children, you're in for a rough ride.

I agree. I wouldn't respect a dom/me who couldn't control their kids, but then I wouldn't respect a sub who couldn't either. At least not enough to be in a relationship with them.

 

[Netzach]

This was my thought, I don't see this as especially non-vanilla, then again, kids are a total non-issue for me. I did have a stepfather, though, and I certainly remember the process of hatred, rejection, melting ice and acceptance in my own young life.

Discipline between adults should not be carried out in front of minors in my world, end of rant. A good D/s household might appear to simply be a well-ordered one to someone growing up in it.

Blending families is always going to be a hard row to hoe, children are not tiny androids, not every child is as easy to manage as every other child.

YMMV.

Ok not going into a rant, I am going to display a lot of self control here, but I am going to use my swords to cut through the Gordian knot, because it is actually just like Alexander a very easy puzzle to solve. I really do not see much difference between a BDSM couple dealing with stepchildren and a vanilla couple dealing with stepchildren. BDSM should never touch the lives of innocent children.

I have a step son, Catalina has two children and one of them is a boy of 19 year old which is living with us. It is clear that although the two of us are living as a BDSM couple that part of our life is separate from our relationship with Catalina’s son. We have a TPE relationship but that is something between the two of us and the both of us made very clear that children fall outside the realm of BDSM. I would also never punish Catalina in front of any of her family.

A BDSM relationship is just like any other relationship just with a couple of extra ingredients. It is educating children together, it is sharing the responsibility together, and it is about communication and about respect, not only from the pyl towards the PYL but especially from the PYL towards the pyl and the pyl’s family.

There is a tendency to make believe that just because you are a dominant anything and everything just falls into place and everything is easy and without effort. I would like to see those Dominants take charge and control of a child with a personality disorder. Theatrics are all very nice but it comes down to not acting but living the reality of everyday life. BDSM is not IMHO something which is hard and uncaring and cold, it is vibrant full of colour and emotions. A PYL is not a divine being, a PYL has feelings and emotions and moments of strength and moments of weakness ignoring that is asking for trouble and an invitation to disaster.

Francisco.

 

[YinandYang]

Myself and my ex (their father) are the only two people who have a direct say in the choices we make for our children. If I was in a 24/7 BDSM relationship, that would still apply. Whilst i would welcome advice where my children were concerned, I would definately not welcome direct control from another. It is MY choice to be submissive, and that wouldn't stretch to having the children 'submit'. I would no more allow this, than push any situation on them where they couldn't make their mind up in a freewill way. I hope in this lifetime they can learn to make their own choices, and anyone who compromises that would not have free reign to hold the reins so to speak.

 

[Silverlily]

I'm having a little trouble ordering my thoughts, so I will revisit this later. But for now the thing foremost in my mind is what being a mother does to one.

(Note - I am in no way, shape, or form discounted or belittling the contributions or challenges of fatherhood. It is only that I am not one.)

Being a mother can really wreak havoc with one's demeanor. The cry of an infant can bring the most aggresive and in-charge woman to a stop with an instant and often undesirable change in plans. Conversely, that same child can give the most passive women a drive and will of steel should a detrimental situation occur.

I have to wonder how that would play into a fledgling D/s relationship.

 

[YinandYang]

As for allowing them to see or hear what goes on behind the closed door...no way! They don't have the understanding to cope with it at all. Even though they are very young, it would still apply when they are older too. Children are extremely fragile, and need stability...and seeing mummy tied up or hearing her scream would unsettle them alot! These are the reasons I only play when they are at their dads house.

 

[CutieMouse]

I'm having a little trouble ordering my thoughts, so I will revisit this later. But for now the thing foremost in my mind is what being a mother does to one.

(Note - I am in no way, shape, or form discounted or belittling the contributions or challenges of fatherhood. It is only that I am not one.)

Being a mother can really wreak havoc with one's demeanor. The cry of an infant can bring the most aggresive and in-charge woman to a stop with an instant and often undesirable change in plans. Conversely, that same child can give the most passive women a drive and will of steel should a detrimental situation occur.

I have to wonder how that would play into a fledgling D/s relationship.

I can say in my limited experience it creates a bit of an internal struggle- the desire to focus on D/s and submitting out of Love vs. the "Mommy gene" instinctually telling me the kids do need to come first in most ways because they are children (mine are all still rather small), while the PYL is a grown human being capable of far more rational thought/etc than the kids. Not a fun spot to be in, actually. I supect it's equally difficult for both parties.

 

[snowy ciara]

A good D/s household might appear to simply be a well-ordered one to someone growing up in it.

Pardon the snippage, please. I just wanted to isolate the point and jump up and down and point at Nets and yell 'ZACTLY RIGHT! There were 5 birth children in our family and 6 steps at various times. None of us knew what was going on with mum and dad in this matter. We just knew there were rules of civilized behavior for all of us, and it was an exceptionally well ordered house for the number of kids involved!

they are of an age where it is acceptable for them to know the type relationship their parent/s are in as in our case I think it is okay to explain as little or as much as you feel is necessary...

More snippage for the same reason. Again, 'zactly right. The three of us kids, (one elder brother, kat and me) who know of the relationship learned after we were grown up. I believe my brother found out when he came out of the closet when he was in his mid 20's. I found out when I was 19, under similar circumstances. It was shortly after this when kat found out, as I realized that there was a really good chance that kat and my parents could also run into each other at various interesting places. The thing is, we were all grown up and able to deal with the situation. You only give as much information as neccessary at the time. In our case, the information was important cause we were all in the same geographic area. We could very well have run into each other, and none of us wanted to know each other that well.

 

[Kajira Callista]

As Francisco said BDSM shouldn't affect the kids. Me and K are D/s except for the kids. Everything with the kids is discussed. There's normally not an issue, cause we have very similar discipline beliefs. We made sure of it before we got married. Our big things was covered by Snowy's mum. We don't undermine eachother, and we don't let the kids hear us arguing about them.

Even our D/s has one area of discussion. If I think it's gonna harm the kids, K know's I'm gonna balk. Our kids are the most important aspect of our lives, and nothing is gonna come between that. Frankly, if something were to happen to K, and I were to get into another relationship, my new Dom would have to understand and agree with that, or I'd dump him on his ass.

I think that having kids can definately make things difficult in finding a relationship, but I think that's typical in vanilla relationships, too. (Never mind, I KNOW it is.) I can see you being extra picky about your relationships, I would. But, I wouldn't plan on just cutting out D/s totally.

I'm not expressing what im trying to say to well here. I dont by any means feel children should be part of a D/s relationship, but to me that type of relationship would be the way i live my life. Maybe not in obvious ways all the time...or in front of the kids, but my head and heart would know i was owned. Im afraid that would make problems with a dominant if i were to go against his/her will in regular every day things, not just D/s relationship things.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm not expressing what im trying to say to well here. I dont by any means feel children should be part of a D/s relationship, but to me that type of relationship would be the way i live my life. Maybe not in obvious ways all the time...or in front of the kids, but my head and heart would know i was owned. Im afraid that would make problems with a dominant if i were to go against his/her will in regular every day things, not just D/s relationship things.

If a PYL cannot accept being over ruled on matters that concern the pyl’s children, they are not much of a PYL. Owning a submissive who is a mother/father is accepting that a part of the pyl will never be yours.

I am not going to stand here and say that is easy or that all PYL like it, but it is the reality of life. Many PYL will avoid relationships with a pyl who have children, but many PYL also understand that the part of the pyl that is mother or father can not be owned and should never be owned.

What the pyl has to accept though IMO is the advisory role of the PYL in those matters. Communication is the key here, talking and talking and talking. It is not easy, but at the end it is worth it. I have been overruled by Catalina, and I have an ego which is bigger then a skyscraper but she is the mother.

Francisco.

Edited to correct those endearing english foibles of the most loving Spanish Master in the universe. Sorry I was not around to do it when initially needed.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have been overruled by Catalina, and I have an ego which is bigger then a skyscraper but she is the mother.

Francisco.

LOL, now I would think of it more as we discussed as adults and mutually concerned and stressed parental carers and I provided a valid argument for my POV, or you in your infinite patience and generosity decided to grant me the chance to try it out before asking me specifically if necessary to accept your preferences in the matter at hand.

It is possible to maintain the choice of what you feel is right for your child/ren while still being owned. It is not easy at first (but I also think much of that exists in a vanilla type blending of families too)and takes some thinking outside the box and communication from both sides, but it can be part of that ownership. One way of thinking of it can be as an owned being, your child though not part of the D/s is one of the responsibilities your owner wishes you to maintain as part of your role and in a manner which is acceptable to you and them. Similarly if you had a pet (no I am not equating children to pets, but seems a good analogy) your owner gifted you with, or you had before the relationship began, that pet would normally not then automatically become the domain of your Owner to take care of and clean up after. They may pay for a vet consultation if the pet was injured or ill, or discuss any difficulties in the care of the pet, or even share the love of and daily antics of the pet, but the primary care giver role would be yours. Make sense?

Catalina

 

[sunfox]

Similarly if you had a pet (no I am not equating children to pets, but seems a good analogy) your owner gifted you with, or you had before the relationship began, that pet would normally not then automatically become the domain of your Owner to take care of and clean up after. They may pay for a vet consultation if the pet was injured or ill, or discuss any difficulties in the care of the pet, or even share the love of and daily antics of the pet, but the primary care giver role would be yours. Make sense?

Catalina

Damn right. I am the be all, end all, when it comes to the critters around here. But that's due to my knowledge more than anything else.. that and the fact that they only listen to me. *snickers*

But I agree with both of you, Francisco and Catalina.. it is possible to maintain both, I have to think. But it requires a special PYL to comprehend and honor the fact that he/she will not ever be able to hold dominion over that one part of the pyl's life. I imagine, KC, that there are plenty of PYLs out there who would quickly see that you were well worth the sacrifice of that small part in order to possess the whole, when it comes to you... just as quite a few of us can see that you would be worth that in spades.

 

[graceanne]

Even more; I hope that their are PYL's out there who would like that about you. They'd like that you're a good, responsible mother. It's shouldn't be something to work around, it's something to be respected.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

The way W/W/we try to work it

(as a Dominant/Switch/submissive poly group with the children in question belonging to the switch IE me)

My children are mine. We do discuss certain things that affect both my Sir and my submissive but in the end, my children equal my final say. My Sir has his own children (who do not reside in house) but if they did the result would be the same..His children, his final say.

As both catalina and Francisco have pointed out...the only things that work are constant conversation as well as knowing what everyone's limits are in response to the children in question.

Trinique knows how I feel about my kids and so if there are issues she knows to come to ME...I will endeavor to fix them. My Sir and I are contractually agreed to my handling of my children. They take precedence to everyone else and He has agreed to that.

Asfor the rest...it can all be fixed or worked with given enough time and energy from the couple in question.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

All this makes me wonder how I will handle things when I have children (and I will have them). I'd say up until this past month and a half or so I never would have contemplated adding a D/s aspect to any of it. I think of my sister with her three kids and I think of me in three or four years and wonder..."how the hell...."

My sister barely has time to do simple everyday things even in just her "vanilla" marriage and life. I call her almost every day, and whenever I do, there's always "Hold on..." or "One second..." or "Call me back tonight when the kids are in bed..." Granted, I don't plan on having three tykes in a row (literally) as my sister has, but I know just from spending extended time with my sister and her kids, and now Luna and hers, it is, to say the least, an enlightening experience.

You're always unprepared to some degree when you have children. No matter how much you read or hear or babysit...it doesn't compare to feeling the child inside you, carrying it next to you. *insert small remembrance prayer here* Everything else is just practice.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Blanket question...if the children in the home are running wild...blatantly disobedient...commanding the submissive and being allowed to do so is there respect within the D/s relationship?

No this is NOT about non consensual BDSM participation or knowledge that the children are subjected to but about (PEOPLE) living under one roof...one who just happens to be Dominant over another due to the concious choice and long standing desire for such a relationship.

When does disrespect become acceptable simply because the kids are loved and predate the subs existance? Are bounderies only for the submissive and if so why?

 

[graceanne]

Blanket question...if the children in the home are running wild...blatantly disobedient...commanding the submissive and being allowed to do so is there respect within the D/s relationship?

No this is NOT about non consensual BDSM participation or knowledge that the children are subjected to but about (PEOPLE) living under one roof...one who just happens to be Dominant over another due to the concious choice and long standing desire for such a relationship.

When does disrespect become acceptable simply because the kids are loved and predate the subs existance? Are bounderies only for the submissive and if so why?

No, there's no respect. But like I said, I wouldn't repect a vanilla person who couldn't control their kids. And even if I was in a 'nilla relationship, I sure wouldn't let some kid tell me what to do. Period. If I ended up in a relationship like that, be it D/s or 'nilla, I wouldn't stick around long.

Disrespect is never acceptable. Ever. And it doesn't matter the why's or wherefores. It's not showing love to allow your children to be brats. It's called spoiling your children.

I can see how it might cause a bit more problems in a D/s relationship, cause the dom/me is supposed to be in control, and if they can't control their own children, how can they control their sub? But it's a problem either way. Lets say it's the other way, the dom/me goes into the relationship, the sub has the kids, and they're brats. Not only are they brats, but the second that the dom/me tries to do anything, the sub gets in his face and tells him/her to back off; they're his/her kids.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Blanket question...if the children in the home are running wild...blatantly disobedient...commanding the submissive and being allowed to do so is there respect within the D/s relationship?

No this is NOT about non consensual BDSM participation or knowledge that the children are subjected to but about (PEOPLE) living under one roof...one who just happens to be Dominant over another due to the conscious choice and long standing desire for such a relationship.

When does disrespect become acceptable simply because the kids are loved and predate the subs existence? Are boundaries only for the submissive and if so why?

I for one do not tolerate disobedience or disrespect from my children ever (Domme mommy). They know what the rules are and are expected to follow them. My children...when they misbehave are punished differently then most. I don't and will never punish my child for telling the truth and/or admitting they knew they broke the rules, as long as a sorry follows. Suppose my SO doesn't agree with my approach but has decided to allow me total control of all the kids do....wouldnt something start to fester and slowly break down things between the adults? And then comes (in my little mind) that i wouldn't expect my dominant to sit back and allow the children to run all over him/her because I'm in charge of them........butttttttttttttt i would expect him/her to know how i do things and follow through as i would.and quite frankly that doesn't feel all so submissive to me. I think i would feel a little like olive oil being tugged on both sides by popeye and brutus.

 

[graceanne]

I for one do not tolerate disobedience or disrespect from my children ever (Domme mommy). They know what the rules are and are expected to follow them. My children...when they misbehave are punished differently then most. I don't and will never punish my child for telling the truth and/or admitting they knew they broke the rules, as long as a sorry follows. Suppose my SO doesn't agree with my approach but has decided to allow me total control of all the kids do....wouldnt something start to fester and slowly break down things between the adults? And then comes (in my little mind) that i wouldn't expect my dominant to sit back and allow the children to run all over him/her because I'm in charge of them........butttttttttttttt i would expect him/her to know how i do things and follow through as i would.and quite frankly that doesn't feel all so submissive to me. I think i would feel a little like olive oil being tugged on both sides by popeye and brutus.

I think Shadowsdream was talking about when they're running wild, or disrespectful. Frankly, in your case, and in any relationship, you need to discuss discipline beliefs and practices, and make sure that you agree, or can at least make it to a middle ground. Otherwise the relationship wouldn't work, BDSM or 'nilla.

 

[sunfox]

And then comes (in my little mind) that i wouldn't expect my dominant to sit back and allow the children to run all over him/her because I'm in charge of them........butttttttttttttt i would expect him/her to know how i do things and follow through as i would.and quite frankly that doesn't feel all so submissive to me. I think i would feel a little like olive oil being tugged on both sides by popeye and brutus.

They are your children. The Dominant should be capable of respecting that and your choice of method of raising them, imo.. nothing in that is not submissive.. it's being a good and consistent mother, which is admirable.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Blanket question...if the children in the home are running wild...blatantly disobedient...commanding the submissive and being allowed to do so is there respect within the D/s relationship?

*SNIP*

When does disrespect become acceptable simply because the kids are loved and predate the subs existance? Are bounderies only for the submissive and if so why?

In my opinion, children do not run the household...the adult(s) in question do. Whether the relationship is vanilla or based in the BDSM realm doesn't make a lick of difference.

My children KNOW that they will be punished for disrespecting an adult in my house (whether it is myself, my Sir or My submissive). My Sir and submissive KNOW that if they holler and scream at my children, we will have problems. These are things that have been discussed repeatedly between the 3 of us.

Disrespect from anyone in anyway is not acceptable. It is why I chose the lifestyle I did and why I keep control of my children like I do.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Blanket question...if the children in the home are running wild...blatantly disobedient...commanding the submissive and being allowed to do so is there respect within the D/s relationship?

No this is NOT about non consensual BDSM participation or knowledge that the children are subjected to but about (PEOPLE) living under one roof...one who just happens to be Dominant over another due to the concious choice and long standing desire for such a relationship.

When does disrespect become acceptable simply because the kids are loved and predate the subs existance? Are bounderies only for the submissive and if so why?

I still don't see this and D/s as being exclusively or otherwise connected. It is a problem many face in raising children, their own or step or adopted etc., D/s or vanilla. Perhaps the issues with the children are related to a disorder, and not just the popular ADD....that is not something which is simply controlled or even fixable because someone in that household is under the mistaken belief they hold omnipotent power and rights. It is life. Children are human and will not be perfect and will learn through their experiences and the relationships around them. It is not an easy 'one size fits all' issue, simply because every situation, every person (child and adult) involved is unique and different. Of course you get people who believe in the strictest measures until the children are scared into submission, but I don't see that as a solution, just a creation of more long lasting problems.

I also don't see the children as 'commanding the submissive' just because they act as children and do not fit the cut out image of perfection and may have problems. Children are not able to reason as an adult often is, so often behaviour such as described is not so much disobedience as a way of acting out their fears, anxieties, resistance to change, jealousies, pain, sorrow, loss, grief, and countless other emotions. It is not a stretch of the imagination to think they might have anxiety etc., over their parent's new partner. To assume it is disobedience and have a newcomer then come in and start reprimanding and disciplining them is only adding more pain and problems. I think if a Dom/me has a serious issue with the situation to the point they feel it is threatening their position as Dominant over a consenting adult submissive, they may need to do a reality check on their ego, what D/s is about and whether they are up for the ride.

Catalina

 

[FungiUg]

Submissive doesn't mean door-mat. A submissive chooses who to submit to (that's what makes it consensual.) Children should not be on the list of acceptable choices!

It's that simple really.

I think that using submission as an excuse to allow children to walk all over her is not on. By either the dominant or the submissive. Children need boundaries, and it's not healthy for them to learn they can walk all over adults.

I agree that this isn't related to BDSM. Rather, this is poor parenting.

 

[Temptress_1960]

From my little corner in lurkdom, I just have to ask.

What is a PYL?

 

[snowy ciara]

TEMPTY?!?!?! pouncing and hugging and froping PYL is a euphanism for Pick Your Label. Legend has it that one of the Scary Ones, (AA I believe) started it after another label war. Capped it refers to Tops, Dom/mes, Masters, Mistresses. What-Have-Yous. Non capped is a subbie, slave, bottom, whatever.


Yes, I meant froping. standing joke on another site where I've seen Tempty.