BDSM != Disrespect: help explaining that to hubby

[intothewoods]

If I would like to be treated respectfully, then I should treat others respectfully? hmm wow there's a concept. That happens to be how I treat people both men and women as a general rule, but in your case I will make an exception.

You see your not the type of person that I consider worthy of trying to earn their respect, nor do I desire or want it particualarly from you. And since that is out of the way, there is nothing which really compells me to care or give a rats ass what you think BiBunny.

You claim to be a switch and I can only hope that you are different in person than what you present of yourself online, because being proud of being a loud mouth arrogant bitch acting out in order to prove something to others or yourself is not what dominance is about. Its more about being self confident in who you are and doesn't require you to seek validation by bulling and pushing others around. I can look at the responses you have made to me here and it is clear to me that your self confidence is about as thin and as transparent as serand wrap.

If you knew anything about me at all, you would know that I have respect for those who have character and self confidence. as a dominant you have the mannerisms of a goat which is never a little 'aside" but can be found in just about every thread and post you make throughout the entire board on a constant basis. There is nothing about your dominant side that I respect or admire.

And when you say you are submissive BiBunny, I see you as someone who flounders as a whiney brat who again acts out for attention. None of which I find appealing or respect in anyway, shape, or form.

So wheather you are switching from being a...a loud mouth arrogant bitch acting out in order to prove something to others or yourself...or a...whiney brat who acts out for attention, there just isn't anything there that compels me to want, need or give any respect from/to you.

Now that that is clear, let me make a few other things clear to you. In this conversation there is only one of us who truly believes that men and women are equal and that would be me. All the things you have tried to say against me, about insecurities, delicate sensibilities, and now calling me an obtuse jackass, and who(in your words and judgements of me)...only humors women and doesn't believe women are equal to men....are nothing more to cover up, that the reverse is actually true. It is your insecurities, your delicate sensibilities, and you being the obtuse jackass and your inability to believe that a man is capable of believing that a woman is equal to man that fosters your mistrust of them.

The tatics you used to attack me are about as old as the Pot, meet Kettle phrase you use over and over. They only work against those men who feel guilty because there is some truth in them which that man doesn't want known and would rather fold and be bullied than stand up to scrutinization. But you see I am not one of them. I don't have any guilt because I know myself and know that I do respect women. There are some women I know who are beneath me, I know there are some women who are my equal, and I know there are some women who are better then me. The same is true for men, however what makes them above, equal or below me has nothing to do with thier sex as much as it has to do with the type of person they are.

So you see it has nothing to do with any precieved insecurities, or delicate sensibilities on my part as I am quite sure of myself and who I am and what I think and feel in regards to this. I also know that there are many women who would also say that I am very respectful and considerate of them.

You also need to learn how to read better and not just see what you want to see or hear what you want to hear....

"I never once said that Mazuri should point out that her husband was being an ass".

I never once said or claimed that you said that. Go back and quote it in any of the posts I made, the problem is you can't because I didn't say that but that hasn't stopped you from accusing me of saying it twice now. Must be nice to make things up in your own mind and believe they are true or factual.

"I have a hell of a time even figuring out what the hell you're trying to say with the long paragraphs and convoluted sentences."

I am sorry you have such a hard time figuring out what I type, perhaps that is due in part from your selective listing skills or that you comprehend things that only fit your view, so here is a summary to ensure that you understand this post.

I don't want or need your respect, nor do you display any qualities in which I respect or desire as a person. As a dominant you have the mannerisms of a goat, as a submiisive you are a whiney brat, both of which act out in order to get attention and non of which I find appealing in a person.

It wouldn't matter if you were male or female.

*points my middle finger downwards...and if that isn't clear enough for you then let me turn it up for you...Can you hear me now bitch?

Bitch? Really? Did we have to go there?

It doesn't see to me that you two were necessarily disagreeing. Bunny and grace's point was that the notion that a woman can't decide for herself what's demeaning is, well, sort of demeaning. RJ's point is that the OP's husband is likely struggling with a request from his wife that involves actions he had been taught were wrong.

Why can't both of these points be valid? I don't quite get it.

 

[Netzach]

Bitch? Really? Did we have to go there?

It doesn't see to me that you two were necessarily disagreeing. Bunny and grace's point was that the notion that a woman can't decide for herself what's demeaning is, well, sort of demeaning. RJ's point is that the OP's husband is likely struggling with a request from his wife that involves actions he had been taught were wrong.

Why can't both of these points be valid? I don't quite get it.

I don't either.

If Bunny suffers from not having a pipeline to whatever Mazuri's husband actually thinks, I don't think you've got one either RJ.

And, yeah, guys *are* programmed to treat women like they're made of glass and guys are taught that women who ask directly for what they need sexually are damaged. To which I say, get the F over it. Quit making excuses for the training and listen to your partners. Does this make me a bitch? I'm fine with that.

 

[Chris_Xavier]

The name's not Dude, Guy or Bud. Its RJ or Rich.

More like punk..arrogant asshole punk..

If you can't argue your point and do it w/o getting all in someone's face or getting pissy about it.. then you really do lose the validity of your argument.

As for how one addresses you, don't you think that as a "gentleman" you could have phrased it a little nicer.. say perhaps "I'd prefer you not call me that..I'd prefer you call me RJ" or whatever?

I admit I'm not the most tempered of posters at times but damn man.. chill.

The biggest thing I've learned on here is that what works for you may not work for the next person.. and tolerance is the watch word for ALL.

And just because you're a Dom and someone else is a sub/switch, you don't have the immediate and God given right to be rude.. and if someone else is, in your opinion, rude .. then for Christ's sake man.. show your Domly maturity and take the high road.

 

[Chris_Xavier]

I don't either.

If Bunny suffers from not having a pipeline to whatever Mazuri's husband actually thinks, I don't think you've got one either RJ.

And, yeah, guys *are* programmed to treat women like they're made of glass and guys are taught that women who ask directly for what they need sexually are damaged. To which I say, get the F over it. Quit making excuses for the training and listen to your partners. Does this make me a bitch? I'm fine with that.

Yeah Netzach.. you make me doubt my manhood.
I think you should be locked away in a room with a vibe that has been split in half length-wise.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah Netzach.. you make me doubt my manhood.
I think you should be locked away in a room with a vibe that has been split in half length-wise.

Can Shank be in there too? We could probably make a zapping toy out of it in no time.

Honestly, I could contribute to every single thread with what a freak you are made to feel like if you're a dominant woman throughout your entire sexual maturity arc. I don't. It's my bag of shit to make peace with or not. If men are discouraged from hitting their partners within the last century, women have been discouraged from same since the start of *time* - the fact that I can even fathom the life I lead is a minor miracle of nature over nurture.

But you're not going to find me whining about it. I got a hold of some books and decided honestly what I wanted because I wanted it. I don't believe in the conversion. I don't think "conversions" ever go well or are ever fair to the converted.

There is not a latent sado Dom in the rugged exterior of every manly man any more than there is in the lovely form of every girly girl. There just ain't.

He's either going to get off on grabbing you and spanking your ass or he's not ever going to come to that - yeah, your expression of interest might be a catalyst if it's in him already or it might be a source of tension from hereon in. To keep pressuring someone who is turned off or bewildered isn't fair. To deny yourself a real need isn't fair, so think long and hard about your non negotiable needs and what has to happen.

 

[graceanne]

I think we scared off the newb with all the bickering. She hasn't posted in a while.

 

[RJMasters]

Bitch? Really? Did we have to go there?

It doesn't see to me that you two were necessarily disagreeing. Bunny and grace's point was that the notion that a woman can't decide for herself what's demeaning is, well, sort of demeaning. RJ's point is that the OP's husband is likely struggling with a request from his wife that involves actions he had been taught were wrong.

Why can't both of these points be valid? I don't quite get it.

I don't know...going back to the beginning of the exchange with BiBunny...she tells me to take a valum and chill, doesn't ask..just takes it upon her self to tell what to do, then she turns the exchange from the issue to personal attacks by saying I must be insecure...I responded again to the issue....and again she comes back with attacks of a personal nature...and yet again I respond to the issue....when she calls me a jackass, you might want to stop and consider 'Did we have to go there?"

Because you see I realise that we had differening views of the issue and was quite willing to debate that heatedly if neccessary, but what I am not going to put up with is her repeatedly making it into a personal attack and then have the audasity to judge me and say I do not treat women as equals.

I mean just the other day someone disagreed with her about a movie and she nearly ripped their fucking head off.

Well I am sorry for all of you out there who think I was a bit rough of BiBunny, but she was the one who kept making the issue a personal one and then she got mean and nasty with her last post. She can bully and act like Godzilla with the rest of you if that's what you want and let her walk all over you because "she is in a bad mood", but if she's going to shove me she's gonna find that I shove back. I don't run from people who push other people around and I don't care if they happen to be male or female. And being in a bad mood is not a reason for treating others like shit.

Like she said. If you want to be treated with respect, maybe not calling someone an obtrusive jackass and making judgements that she has no place in making, might go a long way.

As to BiBunny's point, I happen to agree with the observation that it is demeaning if a man told a woman what to think. However, my point was and still is, he is not just a man....he is also her husband and due to the nature of the relationship and the request made in this thread by the OP, I think its crappy and insulting to make such a comment. Why, because it also infers that the OP isn't living up to the modern ideal of what a woman should be. I mean everyone knows that a woman should be able to think for herself right, and obviously the OP must not be doing that...according the comment. And what is "inferred" by the comment is that the OP should get a spine.

Its perfectly fine if BiBunny and grace what to say that or contribute that as their opinions, or even as observations, but I also have a right to say why I think that it is not the right way in approaching this situation, without them trying to make me look like I am some kind of woman hater. And my anger has nothing to do with my insecurities or delicate sensibilities either, it has to do with someone getting in my face and acting like a bitch to me thinking she can get away with it because I am just man or because she thinks the world revolves around her.

So yes, both points are valid, only I still maintain that her point/observation/whathave you, would not be the right approach if the OP wants to work with her husband towards these things together. I also think the OP shouldn't feel demeaned or less than other woman either because she chooses to allow her husband's thoughts be part of the process.

I have been married for 21 years and the woman of my life has over the years often told me what I should think. We shouldn't do so and so because it will result in such and such. We should do this and here's why. And she has influenced my thinking in so many ways. Should I feel demeaned because a woman speaks her mind and tells me what to think? I think not, she is my wife and I know the things she says is not because she's wants to control me, but she says them because she thinks they are right and also what would be best for both of us and our relationship. So why is it demeaning to a woman if a man speaks his mind, givne the same circumstances I did above? I mean shouldn't it be able to go both ways?

A feministic outlook which excludes males because they are men, is not about equality at all and ultimately will fail because it does not include both male and females as equals together. That's not deep, that's just common sense.

 

[RJMasters]

In Bunny's defense she is a sweet girl who has a heart of gold RJ

That may be true, and on some level I think I believe that too, but if someone got into her face like she did mine, she would have blown a gasket too. Infact she does it for alot less.

I know she got angry at me for challenging her view, but I also know, she knows, she turned it personal and attacked me rather than discuss the issue based on the merits of it.

I also know that if the situation was reversed she would have every right lay into me as I did into her. So I don't feel sorry for doing it. She deserved it. That said, I am not happy about it because I neather wanted nor desire to have bad feelings towards BiBunny.

I would be glad to apologized to her and mean it, if she acknowledges her part in it and takes back the untrue things she said about me.

Its nice to have friends like you and she is lucky to have friends who will speak up for her. I wouldn't go so far a saying she has a heart of gold, but I will say she must have somehting going for if she has friends like you.

 

[Shankara20]

Can Shank be in there too? We could probably make a zapping toy out of it in no time.

I'm ready to go

now leaving this thread before I'm hit with flying whatever, play nice if possible

 

[Puman]

http://www.xeromag.com/fvbdniceguy.html

Thank you... bookmarked... nice guys (like my husband) seem to believe it more when they hear it (or read it) elsewhere.

 

[RJMasters]

More like punk..arrogant asshole punk..

I have been called worse. Sometimes its true, and other times its just by people who are trying to protect a friend even though they know their friend was in the wrong.

If you can't argue your point and do it w/o getting all in someone's face or getting pissy about it.. then you really do lose the validity of your argument.

I so agree with you. I also think sticking to the issue and not saying things that are untrue about the other person is a good rule too. But I have come to realise over the years that when a person you are discussing an issue with does this, there comes a point where enough is enough and you basicly have to tell them to fuck off get out of your face.

As for how one addresses you, don't you think that as a "gentleman" you could have phrased it a little nicer.. say perhaps "I'd prefer you not call me that..I'd prefer you call me RJ" or whatever?

hmmmm perhaps if she would have been a lady to begin with, there would have been no reason to have to say that all. This isn't about being a gentleman or lady...and frankly the way those terms are being used is very condecening so don't speak to me about acting like a gentleman Chris, unless you want to tell BiBunny she should have acted more like a lady. I for one would love to see how that goes over, you might wnat to put on your running shoes though first.

I admit I'm not the most tempered of posters at times but damn man.. chill.

That's good advice, I think she told me to do that too, which I returned the favor, but she didn't listen. So why should I listen to you Chris? Am I to believe by chilling that will make everything better? Here's an idea, how about you make a post and "tell" her to chill. You see I would be so much more inclined to listen to your suggestion Chris had you incuded her into it, rather than just sticking up for her and overlooking her rude behavior to me.

The biggest thing I've learned on here is that what works for you may not work for the next person.. and tolerance is the watch word for ALL..

So am I included in the "all"? Just checking. How about radical feminists Chris? I mean I know there a few here too, so I am just wondering if you are including them into this idea of them being tolerate of others. I hope you are. I mean it sounds good and all on paper. If your going to tell me to act like a gentlement then you better tell them to act like ladies Chris. If your going to tell or suggest that I chill, then you better tell or suggest to them to chill too. I am not going to live under a double standard where I must live up to the standards of being a gentleman when that allows them to walk all over me and say anything they like without being accountable.

And just because you're a Dom and someone else is a sub/switch, you don't have the immediate and God given right to be rude.. and if someone else is, in your opinion, rude .. then for Christ's sake man.. show your Domly maturity and take the high road.

I disagree. Sometimes showing Domly maturity is being willing to be the brick wall a person runs into at 200 mph and not move. Sometimes Domly maturity requires one to stand up to ill behavior of others. Sometimes Domly maturity requires you to stand up for yourself even if you know others will think its wrong.

If BiBunny is really upset by everything that has happened, I will be glad to discuss it with her one on one and see if we can't work it out between us. As I have said above I am perfectly willing to apologize to her if she will admit that she said untrue things about me and called me names which earned her the ass chewing she got. I could respect that. But I am not going to be pushed or manipulated into some guilt trip about it regardless of how you want to enshroud it in noble language and ideals.

When we live in a world where people take no personal responsibility for their own actions and behaviors, and they think self expresion is a license to walk all over other people or bully them to shut up, maturity isn't taking the high road and just watcing it go by, its taking a stand against it. If that makes me an arrogant asshole punk in your eyes Chris, then so be it, but shame on you for tyring to smooth over the rude behavior of someone just because they are your friend.

 

[Mazuri]

I think we scared off the newb with all the bickering. She hasn't posted in a while.

*grins* nope, not scared off, just letting the dust settle a bit. There's not much I can do about things right now. He's not only 9000 miles away until January but is currently on an exercise that severs regular communication until the end of the month. Sucks, but 'tis the military. I've got some links sitting in his email box for when he returns from the exercise and will be ordering him the recommended book for his birthday, but beyond that, I can only figure out what I want and how to reassure him it is what I want and that he won't be demeaning/degrading me if he gives me that.

To keep pressuring someone who is turned off or bewildered isn't fair. To deny yourself a real need isn't fair, so think long and hard about your non negotiable needs and what has to happen.

I don't think I'm pressuring him (he's the only one who can really answer that, though). I've written one story for him and we've talked about it once (after he read it) prior to the swat and then after said swat. It's not been brought up again as he returned to Korea soon after and it's simply not come up in conversation again. It kinda makes the loneliness worse to discuss sex a lot lol If it turns out it's something he absolutely cannot bring himself to do, then so be it. Out the window it goes

I don't see any of this as being any sort of need for me, however. I suppose I should point that out. While I know many (most?) who post here do live this lifestyle in order to be happy and sexually satisfied, I don't think I'm one of them. I'm dabbling and curious and more playing at it than anything else to spice up an otherwise very good relationship. If it becomes something else...well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Thanks again *waves*
maz

 

[JMohegan]

but if she's going to shove me she's gonna find that I shove back. I don't run from people who push other people around and I don't care if they happen to be male or female.

For a variety of reasons, I usually do not respond in kind to pejorative name-calling or personally insulting remarks. However, I acknowledge your right to do so.

Male or female, people who don't want to get belted shouldn't start throwing punches in the first place.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't believe in the conversion. I don't think "conversions" ever go well or are ever fair to the converted.

There is not a latent sado Dom in the rugged exterior of every manly man any more than there is in the lovely form of every girly girl. There just ain't.

He's either going to get off on grabbing you and spanking your ass or he's not ever going to come to that - yeah, your expression of interest might be a catalyst if it's in him already or it might be a source of tension from hereon in. To keep pressuring someone who is turned off or bewildered isn't fair. To deny yourself a real need isn't fair, so think long and hard about your non negotiable needs and what has to happen.

I agree with all of this completely.

By way of adding to, rather than disagreeing with, what you have written here, I'll note that the list of people whom I have talked to and successfully helped uncover latent kinkiness is actually reasonably long.

That list includes every one of my partners (none of whom have returned to non-kinkiness in the wake of our time together), and dozens of other people representing both genders and both sides of the kinky coin.

I don't see any of this as being any sort of need for me, however. I suppose I should point that out. While I know many (most?) who post here do live this lifestyle in order to be happy and sexually satisfied, I don't think I'm one of them. I'm dabbling and curious and more playing at it than anything else to spice up an otherwise very good relationship.

It's a slippery slope. Enjoy the slide.

 

[Netzach]

*grins* nope, not scared off, just letting the dust settle a bit. There's not much I can do about things right now. He's not only 9000 miles away until January but is currently on an exercise that severs regular communication until the end of the month. Sucks, but 'tis the military. I've got some links sitting in his email box for when he returns from the exercise and will be ordering him the recommended book for his birthday, but beyond that, I can only figure out what I want and how to reassure him it is what I want and that he won't be demeaning/degrading me if he gives me that.



I don't think I'm pressuring him (he's the only one who can really answer that, though). I've written one story for him and we've talked about it once (after he read it) prior to the swat and then after said swat. It's not been brought up again as he returned to Korea soon after and it's simply not come up in conversation again. It kinda makes the loneliness worse to discuss sex a lot lol If it turns out it's something he absolutely cannot bring himself to do, then so be it. Out the window it goes

I don't see any of this as being any sort of need for me, however. I suppose I should point that out. While I know many (most?) who post here do live this lifestyle in order to be happy and sexually satisfied, I don't think I'm one of them. I'm dabbling and curious and more playing at it than anything else to spice up an otherwise very good relationship. If it becomes something else...well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Thanks again *waves*
maz

Sounds like you're talking rather than pressuring. I hope he gets a little naughty with you, and rock on.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't know...going back to the beginning of the exchange with BiBunny...she tells me to take a valum and chill, doesn't ask..just takes it upon her self to tell what to do, then she turns the exchange from the issue to personal attacks by saying I must be insecure...I responded again to the issue....and again she comes back with attacks of a personal nature...and yet again I respond to the issue....when she calls me a jackass, you might want to stop and consider 'Did we have to go there?"

Because you see I realise that we had differening views of the issue and was quite willing to debate that heatedly if neccessary, but what I am not going to put up with is her repeatedly making it into a personal attack and then have the audasity to judge me and say I do not treat women as equals.

I mean just the other day someone disagreed with her about a movie and she nearly ripped their fucking head off.

Well I am sorry for all of you out there who think I was a bit rough of BiBunny, but she was the one who kept making the issue a personal one and then she got mean and nasty with her last post. She can bully and act like Godzilla with the rest of you if that's what you want and let her walk all over you because "she is in a bad mood", but if she's going to shove me she's gonna find that I shove back. I don't run from people who push other people around and I don't care if they happen to be male or female. And being in a bad mood is not a reason for treating others like shit.

Like she said. If you want to be treated with respect, maybe not calling someone an obtrusive jackass and making judgements that she has no place in making, might go a long way.

As to BiBunny's point, I happen to agree with the observation that it is demeaning if a man told a woman what to think. However, my point was and still is, he is not just a man....he is also her husband and due to the nature of the relationship and the request made in this thread by the OP, I think its crappy and insulting to make such a comment. Why, because it also infers that the OP isn't living up to the modern ideal of what a woman should be. I mean everyone knows that a woman should be able to think for herself right, and obviously the OP must not be doing that...according the comment. And what is "inferred" by the comment is that the OP should get a spine.

Its perfectly fine if BiBunny and grace what to say that or contribute that as their opinions, or even as observations, but I also have a right to say why I think that it is not the right way in approaching this situation, without them trying to make me look like I am some kind of woman hater. And my anger has nothing to do with my insecurities or delicate sensibilities either, it has to do with someone getting in my face and acting like a bitch to me thinking she can get away with it because I am just man or because she thinks the world revolves around her.

So yes, both points are valid, only I still maintain that her point/observation/whathave you, would not be the right approach if the OP wants to work with her husband towards these things together. I also think the OP shouldn't feel demeaned or less than other woman either because she chooses to allow her husband's thoughts be part of the process.

I have been married for 21 years and the woman of my life has over the years often told me what I should think. We shouldn't do so and so because it will result in such and such. We should do this and here's why. And she has influenced my thinking in so many ways. Should I feel demeaned because a woman speaks her mind and tells me what to think? I think not, she is my wife and I know the things she says is not because she's wants to control me, but she says them because she thinks they are right and also what would be best for both of us and our relationship. So why is it demeaning to a woman if a man speaks his mind, givne the same circumstances I did above? I mean shouldn't it be able to go both ways?

A feministic outlook which excludes males because they are men, is not about equality at all and ultimately will fail because it does not include both male and females as equals together. That's not deep, that's just common sense.

I really appreciate that you came back to explain your position, RJ. And I totally agree. No one should be calling anyone names.

And my feminist outlook does not exclude males. It can't. I have a son, and I'm raising him with the hope he will be a feminist, amongst other things, too.

 

[Netzach]

I don't know...going back to the beginning of the exchange with BiBunny...she tells me to take a valum and chill, doesn't ask..just takes it upon her self to tell what to do, then she turns the exchange from the issue to personal attacks by saying I must be insecure...I responded again to the issue....and again she comes back with attacks of a personal nature...and yet again I respond to the issue....when she calls me a jackass, you might want to stop and consider 'Did we have to go there?"

Because you see I realise that we had differening views of the issue and was quite willing to debate that heatedly if neccessary, but what I am not going to put up with is her repeatedly making it into a personal attack and then have the audasity to judge me and say I do not treat women as equals.

I mean just the other day someone disagreed with her about a movie and she nearly ripped their fucking head off.

Well I am sorry for all of you out there who think I was a bit rough of BiBunny, but she was the one who kept making the issue a personal one and then she got mean and nasty with her last post. She can bully and act like Godzilla with the rest of you if that's what you want and let her walk all over you because "she is in a bad mood", but if she's going to shove me she's gonna find that I shove back. I don't run from people who push other people around and I don't care if they happen to be male or female. And being in a bad mood is not a reason for treating others like shit.

Like she said. If you want to be treated with respect, maybe not calling someone an obtrusive jackass and making judgements that she has no place in making, might go a long way.

As to BiBunny's point, I happen to agree with the observation that it is demeaning if a man told a woman what to think. However, my point was and still is, he is not just a man....he is also her husband and due to the nature of the relationship and the request made in this thread by the OP, I think its crappy and insulting to make such a comment. Why, because it also infers that the OP isn't living up to the modern ideal of what a woman should be. I mean everyone knows that a woman should be able to think for herself right, and obviously the OP must not be doing that...according the comment. And what is "inferred" by the comment is that the OP should get a spine.

Its perfectly fine if BiBunny and grace what to say that or contribute that as their opinions, or even as observations, but I also have a right to say why I think that it is not the right way in approaching this situation, without them trying to make me look like I am some kind of woman hater. And my anger has nothing to do with my insecurities or delicate sensibilities either, it has to do with someone getting in my face and acting like a bitch to me thinking she can get away with it because I am just man or because she thinks the world revolves around her.

So yes, both points are valid, only I still maintain that her point/observation/whathave you, would not be the right approach if the OP wants to work with her husband towards these things together. I also think the OP shouldn't feel demeaned or less than other woman either because she chooses to allow her husband's thoughts be part of the process.

I have been married for 21 years and the woman of my life has over the years often told me what I should think. We shouldn't do so and so because it will result in such and such. We should do this and here's why. And she has influenced my thinking in so many ways. Should I feel demeaned because a woman speaks her mind and tells me what to think? I think not, she is my wife and I know the things she says is not because she's wants to control me, but she says them because she thinks they are right and also what would be best for both of us and our relationship. So why is it demeaning to a woman if a man speaks his mind, givne the same circumstances I did above? I mean shouldn't it be able to go both ways?

A feministic outlook which excludes males because they are men, is not about equality at all and ultimately will fail because it does not include both male and females as equals together. That's not deep, that's just common sense.

If you can't tell the difference between "I think we should file taxes before the 11th" or "you should tell your parents to fuck off!" (the kinds of marital shoulds I think you're referring to) and being told you're not sure that the thing you just said is hot is really "OK" for you, you are missing the point. There is a level of patronizing there beyond just trying to move the dogsled where you think it ought to go.


Which is what you ignored before and want to continue to ignore. It has nothing to do with female supremacist BS, but if you want to dismiss it as feminist agenda, that's your problem. It's the kind of being listened to that one is allowed when they're a guy and can't even imagine not having. If a woman points it out of course she's overreacting because men can't even fathom having their sexual desires treated like that. If a guy gets a hard on it must be fulfilled, and you can buy the experience you need if you can't get it at home. So of course it's a dramatic overraction when you've never had to live with this as your sexual reality.

 

[RJMasters]

If you can't tell the difference between "I think we should file taxes before the 11th" or "you should tell your parents to fuck off!" (the kinds of marital shoulds I think you're referring to) and being told you're not sure that the thing you just said is hot is really "OK" for you, you are missing the point. There is a level of patronizing there beyond just trying to move the dogsled where you think it ought to go.


Which is what you ignored before and want to continue to ignore. It has nothing to do with female supremacist BS, but if you want to dismiss it as feminist agenda, that's your problem. It's the kind of being listened to that one is allowed when they're a guy and can't even imagine not having. If a woman points it out of course she's overreacting because men can't even fathom having their sexual desires treated like that. If a guy gets a hard on it must be fulfilled, and you can buy the experience you need if you can't get it at home. So of course it's a dramatic overraction when you've never had to live with this as your sexual reality.

I am not dismissing it. I think Mazuri has a good handle on what turns her on and that was never in any question here from the git go. I think she has decided though that what her husband thinks is important and has made a personal decision to include and even abide in what ever views he might have. I think she is seeking the best way in which to influence his thoughts regarding this by letting him know that she would like these things to be part of their relationship and what is the best way to show him that it isn't degrading.

You mentioned earlier that he should just get past the training or indoctrination and listen to his partner....in other words just get on with it. How understanding of you.

Maybe you might want to give my wife that same peice of advice then? Maybe she should just get on with it. And maybe you should tell her that she is degrading and patronizing me because she sees these things in much the same way as Mazuri's husband does.

You see I do have a unique perspective on this and it is the sexual reality I live 24/7. So tell me if you think my wife is patronizing to me, because she tells me that D/s and BDSM stuff is not healthy or good for a relationship.

You can make anything into a issue if you want to or try hard enough.

And my point hasn't been to ignore it, but to question why would you want to add this into the mix? Because we can? How does it in any way help the stated goals of Mazuri in getting what she wants?

I mean I could totally understand this if Mazuri was looking for a way out of her relationship and someone told her that he is patronizing her, she should just dump his ass and find a man who is more compatible and willing to take her at her word when she says she likes to be spanked. But that isn't the situation here so even if it is true that when one person tells another person what to think is patronizing, how does that fit or help?

And if it doesn't, then my next question is why say it and interject it into the conversation? To make Mazuri feel bad? To get Mazuri to shift blame to her husband for the difficult situation she/they are facing? Are we trying to use guilt as a way in which to push him?

she could sit down with her husband and not call him an ass or anything but explain to him that inadvertantly, wheather he intends to or not, he is patronizing her when he says to her these things are degrading her. She can further explain that she is quite capable of being able to know what she finds degrading or not. Great....now what. Well now he feels compeletly inepted at meeting his wife's sexual needs and feels bad about that, and he still believes these things are bad. Damned if you do and damned if you don't....ya know?

Let's look at what the goal is...

she is seeking the best way in which to influence his thoughts regarding this by letting him know that she would like these things to be part of their relationship by helping him to understand that these things are not degrading to her.

Re-reads the paragraph above and then the goal again...hmmmm nope, I still say its not the best strategy in which to do this, which was infact my point of the first post I made.

 

[FurryFury]

I think this whole thread is getting bogged down in petty arguments that all have some value to the arguers but don't absolutely follow the issues this woman has asked us about.

I can see hubby thinking (which for a man often means feeling,) that something would be demeaning to her without this being a slap in the face to her. You see the bottom line is he feels it would be a demeaning thing for him to do to any woman including his wife. That's an emotional thing for him and it's valid for him.

That doesn't mean he is automatically telling her what she feels. Rather what he would assume any woman would feel based on his own feelings. It's just hard, very hard, for him to wrap him mind around the fact that what he feels isn't the same thing on this issue as his wife. It may be impossible for him to comfortably ever do something that he feels is demeaning in his mind. That's valid too.

It's also valid that she doesn't find it demeaning to her. That she wants it is totally valid.

One person's feelings doesn't automatically cross out the other person's feelings. Her husband is NOT necessarily saying your feelings are wrong, don't count or I know how you feel better than you do.

This is all about the difficult process of communicating well, non-threateningly about very important and sticky emotional differences.

He's okay. She's okay. Can they find a way through the love they have for one another to understand and work with where they are both coming from.

That's how I see all this.

What would be arrogant would be to not be willing to try to understand one another having different POVS and/or to cut off communication on a permanent basis.

 

[Netzach]

She can further explain that she is quite capable of being able to know what she finds degrading or not. Great....now what. Well now he feels compeletly inepted at meeting his wife's sexual needs and feels bad about that, and he still believes these things are bad. Damned if you do and damned if you don't....ya know?

Maybe, just maybe -- instead of getting defensive and digging in, he might sit up and listen to what's being presented at face value. Some people can do that. Some people can be told they're assuming something and not feel that this automatically means they're being told they're inept.

I personally won't settle for less. And I'll bet you the OP won't either. Sounds like she's got a good head on her shoulders.

 

[rthnck]

slow and steady wins the race

When I headed down this road with my SO I experienced the same feelings of not being able to distinguish between hitting/slapping associated with anger and spanking associated with sexual feelings. The answer for me was to not start with the whole "bend me over your knee", "tan my bottom" mindset and to start small with smacks on the ass as she climaxed which then advanced to spanking as she approached orgasm and onto the spanking actually causing the orgasm. Once I got over that hurdle and viewed spanking as pleasurable to her it was pretty easy to give her what she wanted, how she wanted, whenever she wanted it.

The other replies are on the money that communication is key and positive feedback does wonders. Good luck.

 

[Mazuri]

I figure this will take some time. Time for him to adjust (if he ever does) to the thought of doing certain things (not just spanking), time for us to discover what works and what doesn't, time to discuss feelings as they develop. I'm not after instant success and don't expect him to change his mind overnight (if ever). I've seen someone post a few times (sorry, don't remember who) that's it's a journey, not a sprint. I plan to take the scenic route and make it fun if nothing else

Thanks to all who responded, even the heated words carried weight and wisdom once you get past the emotion that fueled the argument.

 

[RJMasters]

Maybe, just maybe -- instead of getting defensive and digging in, he might sit up and listen to what's being presented at face value. Some people can do that. Some people can be told they're assuming something and not feel that this automatically means they're being told they're inept.

I personally won't settle for less. And I'll bet you the OP won't either. Sounds like she's got a good head on her shoulders.

Ok good point. He might accept things at face value. But the feelings of ineptness doesn't come at that point. The feelings will come in the days and weeks that follow, when he may not be able to bring himself to change his mind on these things. If so, how this is handled now, will have a huge impact later on. So far the options have been

A) Share more information with him to help him understand how she feels so that he might be able to rethink his views on these things.
B) Explain to him, he is degrading her by telling her that these things degrade her and she is perfectly fine as a woman in figuring out herself own sexual desires and needs. Then try to share more information with him and hope he gets it.

Option B makes a valid point, but it also sort of changes it into a high pressure sell IMO or gives it an ultimatium-ish feel. It has the all or nothing feel to it. Why draw a line in the sand if you don't have to or want to. Which is what I mean when I say why would you want to complicate the matter even more than it is?

I agree that Mazuri has a good head on her shoulders and has a good handle on it.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Ok good point. He might accept things at face value. But the feelings of ineptness doesn't come at that point. The feelings will come in the days and weeks that follow, when he may not be able to bring himself to change his mind on these things. If so, how this is handled now, will have a huge impact later on. So far the options have been

A) Share more information with him to help him understand how she feels so that he might be able to rethink his views on these things.
B) Explain to him, he is degrading her by telling her that these things degrade her and she is perfectly fine as a woman in figuring out herself own sexual desires and needs. Then try to share more information with him and hope he gets it.

Option B makes a valid point, but it also sort of changes it into a high pressure sell IMO or gives it an ultimatium-ish feel. It has the all or nothing feel to it. Why draw a line in the sand if you don't have to or want to. Which is what I mean when I say why would you want to complicate the matter even more than it is?

I agree that Mazuri has a good head on her shoulders and has a good handle on it.

this, as every other post You've made on this thread, is right on..i get it. i agree with pretty much everything You've said. and honestly, i don't understand how her husband telling her how HE feels about the things she wants done to her, is degrading. it's not like he TOLD her how she should feel. from what i understand, He said in HIS mind it's degrading etc...*shrugs* maybe i missed it completely but that's what i've gotten from the OP's first post.....

 

[Netzach]

"Gee honey, I really find that I get turned on by being spanked and I would like it if you could bring yourself to be a little rougher with me in bed. I know it probably feels weird, but I really like those things, and I was hoping we could incorporate them more."

"Huh. I don't know. I love you very much - I'm not sure why you'd want that. I like treating you like I love you, not meanly. I'm kind of not comfortable with that, because I don't want to degrade you, and I think you'd feel degraded by being treated as anything other than wonderful."

"I can see where you're coming from. But really, it turns me on. And I KNOW you love me, it's so obvious from the way you (do insert cool things he does here.) But I've given this a lot of thought, and honestly I don't think that it reflects on how we feel about one another at all in the long run, it just really cranks my motor and I'm not even sure why. So, I figure instead of worrying about why, it would be really fun to take advantage of how much it makes me want to jump your hot body and play around with it. If you're OK with that. I know it's a lot for you to digest, but I am comfortable with this part of my sexuality, and I don't think it will effect my life negatively, and there's nothing I don't want to explore with YOU. I've thought about this a lot before even bringing it up with you, and I've honestly considered whether it's coming from a bad place for me, or not. And I honestly know, deep down, that it isn't, and that it's just what makes me excited."

No one has to lose face at all. I think this *can* be done in a way that preserves everyone's ego and cuts to the chase.