Being a woman in geek culture

[satindesire]

I like to call them "EBMERF"
"Everybody But Me Exclusionary Radical Feminist"

TERF Feminism really confuses me because once you and Fox News agrees on shit, that's when you know your Feminism has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You're missing your conclusion I think?

 

[satindesire]

You're missing your conclusion I think?

The conclusion being anything associated with women-slash-femininity is bad, therefore sexism against men is based mostly in misogyny is too difficult for him to accept because he's an open and unashamed misogynist who thinks sexism against women is okay and natural but sexism against men is the "real problem today with the world" like most antifeminist shitheads.

He gets that associations with femininity is bad and that the Patriarchy hurts men too, he just doesn't want to actually do any of the hard work to end it or give women equal rights, so he complains about the shit that hurts men (but not women, because fuck them!) and deludes himself into thinking Feminism is the problem instead.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I would love to not put words into people's mouths...

Because it seems to me that the comic makes that exact point, that misogyny hurts men too, by demeaning men who do things that culture has labelled "female." . So I'm wondering whether Primo sees this comic the way I do.

 

[satindesire]

I would love to not put words into people's mouths...

Because it seems to me that the comic makes that exact point, that misogyny hurts men too, by demeaning men who do things that culture has labelled "female." . So I'm wondering whether Primo sees this comic the way I do.

His identity is so invested in being a sexist asshole that to admit that sexism happens to women and that it shouldn't and that it's actually a BAD THING would mean he'd have to critically examine his entire life, personality and behavior and he's not brave enough to do that.

 

[IrisAlthea]

To me, those pictures and the others in the post they came from make more sense about sexism than most people do, no matter how long the topic is discussed.

 

[BiBunny]

To me, those pictures and the others in the post they came from make more sense about sexim than most people do, no matter how long the topic is discussed.

Indeed. That's one reason that, even though I have a lot of strong feelings about the topic, I do my best to never get roped into discussions about it nowadays. It's pretty much always a losing game, as it were.

 

[satindesire]

I'd rather try and talk about it and stop it than not. I feel like I'm doing my kids and my friends and family and myself an injustice by ignoring these problems.

 

[Primalex]

I'd rather try and talk about it and stop it than not.

Unfortunately, talking does not stop anything. Surrounding yourself with people who think like you do, does not stop anything.

And your ability to make people understand what your point is, is extremely close to zero, most likely because you don't know it either. Show me a single person whose point of view you have successfully _changed_.

You jump from one buzzword to the next. You talk about Intersectionality and your first step is to exclude people. You don't want to teach people what they are doing wrong and how to do it better, you want to demonize them.

 

[BiBunny]

I'd rather try and talk about it and stop it than not. I feel like I'm doing my kids and my friends and family and myself an injustice by ignoring these problems.

Not letting myself get caught up in pointless arguments doesn't mean I'm ignoring anything, and TBH, it's a little insulting to insinuate that someone who doesn't want to waste time banging their head against the wall is ignoring these problems.

I can do my best to help people and change things without arguing on the Internet, IMO.

Unfortunately, talking does not stop anything.

Exactly.

Surrounding yourself with people who think like you do, does not stop anything.

And your ability to make people understand what your point is, is extremely close to zero, most likely because you don't know it either. Show me a single person whose point of view you have successfully _changed_.

You jump from one buzzword to the next. You talk about Intersectionality and your first step is to exclude people. You don't want to teach people what they are doing wrong and how to do it better, you want to demonize them.

The bolded part has been my usual experience with trying to talk about these things with people. It doesn't always turn out that way, but it happens often enough.

 

[KoPilot]

So surrounding yourself with like-minded people doesn't accomplish anything (which is just patently false anyways), but also trying to engage with people who may be hesitant to listen also doesn't accomplish anything?

What, exactly is it proposed we do to "do something"? I mean, yeah, arguing with the likes of Primalex is actually a great example of banging my head against the wall. But at some point you're gonna have to confront difficult people.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Not letting myself get caught up in pointless arguments doesn't mean I'm ignoring anything, and TBH, it's a little insulting to insinuate that someone who doesn't want to waste time banging their head against the wall is ignoring these problems.

I can do my best to help people and change things without arguing on the Internet, IMO.



Exactly.



The bolded part has been my usual experience with trying to talk about these things with people. It doesn't always turn out that way, but it happens often enough.

Yes.
The times I feel that I can actually change something, I'm still happy to jump in head first.
Then it has been about things like making sure to help with equal pay statistics by means of own salary but also by influencing policy in the workplace.
Recently it was about making sure that my kid's school understands that their equality policy actually means that the same boys can't always be left alone in the lego room at the after school program, without ever getting any attention from adults. (Big wonder they are falling behing in language acquisition.)

I don't mind confronting people when it comes to writing to politicians about why I think the conscience clause would be a bad thing.

I usually avoid the kind of discussions or confrontations where I don't feel there is an open mind or a possibility to actually change something.

 

[Netzach]

So if every man decided like, today that homophobia was over and there really was nothing wrong with being a fag or a tranny, can we agree that would fix most of that?

I'd like that. Look, I don't have any male offspring just a brigade with mommy issues that are OK by me. There's only so much I can do. Not my pig, not my farm.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Primalex]

So surrounding yourself with like-minded people doesn't accomplish anything

It doesn't change the people who are not around you.

trying to engage with people who may be hesitant to listen also doesn't accomplish anything?

That depends on your definition of "engage". Preaching to people who are already hesitant to listen? If the catholic church failed with their mission, you are not going to succeed.

What, exactly is it proposed we do to "do something"? I mean, yeah, arguing with the likes of Primalex is actually a great example of banging my head against the wall. But at some point you're gonna have to confront difficult people.

No, actually you don't have to confront a difficult person. What result do you expect from confronting a difficult person? You think the driver who just cut the corner and nearly crashed into your car will believe that he is the problem, if you just yell loud enough at him?

You turn the difficult person into a less difficult person - you establish a common ground; everybody hates car accidents, even people who cut corners. You want to change the mind of a male geek gamer? Don't tell him that sexism is bad. Ask him if he was ever bullied in school.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Primalex]

And I've been in three ( not my fault) car accidents. In two the other drivers ( against all advice) have admitted blame on the scene.
The fourth and only accident I've been in that was my fault I've been let off minor damage my the other driver simply by being human and making sure everything was alright and insisting on swapping details, offering to pay for damage etc.

So there was no difficult person around. Congratulations.

 

[KoPilot]

It doesn't change the people who are not around you.

That depends on your definition of "engage". Preaching to people who are already hesitant to listen? If the catholic church failed with their mission, you are not going to succeed.

No, actually you don't have to confront a difficult person. What result do you expect from confronting a difficult person? You think the driver who just cut the corner and nearly crashed into your car will believe that he is the problem, if you just yell loud enough at him?

You turn the difficult person into a less difficult person - you establish a common ground; everybody hates car accidents, even people who cut corners. You want to change the mind of a male geek gamer? Don't tell him that sexism is bad. Ask him if he was ever bullied in school.

If all we're doing is talking, then yes, all the above is true.

I'm talking about action in the real world. When you physically go and do something you know to be right, you will get resistance. Fuck common ground in situations like that.

A better analogy would be like setting fire to the car someone you know to have hit a pedestrian and gotten away with it.

"Ask him if he was ever bullied in school"

This that gets brought up all the time in these discussions, and the only way people change is when they want to change and have decided to change. Until then, collaborate with like-minded people so that you can get out there and do real work instead of just sitting around, shooting the shit, and calling it a day.

I was a huge misogynist at one point in my life. I didn't care how many feathers I ruffled, how much I offended people, how many opinions to the contrary I got, women were garbage and that was the reality I knew and accepted. It was only when I grew the fuck up did I think "hey you know maybe the sorry state of women in this society is because of someone else's trash...". I kind of know first-hand how ineffective even the most civil, cited debate is in the presence of a true believer. See also: climate deniers.

 

[Primalex]

the only way people change is when they want to change and have decided to change.

See. We already agree somewhere.

How do you make people want to change?

 

[KoPilot]

How do you make people want to change?

Lead by example and don't be afraid to bash back.

But at the same time if someone conflates your inevitably less-than-perfect behavior with your ethics, fuck em. They're not even mature enough to work with.

 

[satindesire]

Not letting myself get caught up in pointless arguments doesn't mean I'm ignoring anything, and TBH, it's a little insulting to insinuate that someone who doesn't want to waste time banging their head against the wall is ignoring these problems.

I can do my best to help people and change things without arguing on the Internet, IMO.



Exactly.



The bolded part has been my usual experience with trying to talk about these things with people. It doesn't always turn out that way, but it happens often enough.

No one's forcing you to participate in this thread. If you think it's pointless, why bother even coming here? Obviously the people who are talking about it don't find it pointless. So just leave. It's insulting for you to come into MY thread and tell me that you think it's a pointless thread. If you dislike talking about it...here's a novel idea. DON'T. If you don't like being insulted, don't insult me.

To everyone coming here to tell me how pointless my thread is, and how pointless talking about social issues is, let me just point out that ignoring problems never solved any of them. And talking about these problems is part of it.

We didn't get women's sufferage, gay marriage, or any other human rights issue resolved by pretending it those problems don't exist.

Talking about them, getting together with other like minded people to discuss issues like this is part of how we change them. You can't figure out what problems are and how to fix them without talking about them. And it's fucking insulting that you're insinuating that all I/we do is talk and nothing else.

Sorry y'all don't see the point in reaching out to help others, but like I said above, no one's forcing and of you to come here into my thread to tell me how pointless and useless talking about it is. I don't go to y'all's threads to point out how useless they are. If I dislike a thread, I stay out of it.

Don't be rude. If you dislike the thread, there's the metaphorical door.

 

[KoPilot]

Fwiw, talking is useful so long as it's accompanied by other, more tangible actions.

And let's also not discount the value in practicing your debate skills or just plain venting.

 

[BiBunny]

No one's forcing you to participate in this thread. If you think it's pointless, why bother even coming here?

Because occasionally there's stuff I want to read here? And occasionally, when I'm checking the thread for things I'm interested in, I make the mistake of wandering into discussions when I know better than to bother? Because what I really intended to do was say, "Hey, y'all, the new Spider-Woman book is amazing, and the most recent issue is the best of all!" and I derailed myself?

Obviously the people who are talking about it don't find it pointless. So just leave. It's insulting for you to come into MY thread and tell me that you think it's a pointless thread.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

If you dislike talking about it...here's a novel idea. DON'T. If you don't like being insulted, don't insult me.

To everyone coming here to tell me how pointless my thread is, and how pointless talking about social issues is, let me just point out that ignoring problems never solved any of them. And talking about these problems is part of it.

We didn't get women's sufferage, gay marriage, or any other human rights issue resolved by pretending it those problems don't exist.

Ok, here's the thing, though. You're equating "Not playing Internet crusader" with "Ignoring problems" and "Not doing anything." The two are not the same.

Talking about them, getting together with other like minded people to discuss issues like this is part of how we change them. You can't figure out what problems are and how to fix them without talking about them.

If you or anyone else wants to talk, that's fine. There are certain attitudes that are frustrating to see, yes, but if that's what helps you, then have at it.

At one time, I would have probably done the same, but that time has long passed, and that me is pretty much dead and gone. I've only got so many "spoons," as the saying goes, and I would rather use them in different ways. Should I have pointed it out here? Probably not, but mea culpa.

And it's fucking insulting that you're insinuating that all I/we do is talk and nothing else.

I didn't say that, either.

Sorry y'all don't see the point in reaching out to help others....

And I'm sorry you don't understand that, again, it's possible to reach and help without doing the Tumblr girl pile-on thing every time someone says something you disagree with.

And I'm not trying to degrade all Tumblr-users, either. I love Tumblr, but some of the shit I see there exhausts me.

...but like I said above, no one's forcing and of you to come here into my thread to tell me how pointless and useless talking about it is. I don't go to y'all's threads to point out how useless they are. If I dislike a thread, I stay out of it.

Don't be rude. If you dislike the thread, there's the metaphorical door.

Playing the "get the hell out of my thread" card on a free-speech board that is very, very well-known for believing that nobody "owns" a thread is disingenuous at best.

But, for what it's worth, I'm sorry for coming in. My ability to sit on my hands seems to vanish after a certain number of hours awake, and you'd think one day I'd learn to get off the Internet after 3 am or so.

I'll try not to do it again.

 

[KoPilot]

At any rate, Sophie Campbell, previously Ross Campbell, has come out as a trans woman and has recieved tremendous support from fans and the publisher that she predominantly works for.

This news has made me so happy, especially since she is now, I think, the highest profile trans person working in comics.

 

[satindesire]

Look Bunny, you're my friend. My real friend. I actually do care about you as a person. But sometimes you can be super insensitive.

Please just listen to what you're saying, girl. I love you but damn you can be fucking cold sometimes.

I care about social issues PASSIONATELY. With all my heart. And I'm feeling like you're telling me that one of my most cared about life goals is "useless". C'mon, can't you understand how that'd make me feel? Obviously you can do whatever you want, say whatever you want and go wherever you want, but can you please consider your words and actions before you do/say them when it comes to people that actually care about you, please?

Someone like Primadonna coming in here doesn't bother me because he's a fucking tool, and I don't give a damn because once he tried to ruin my marriage years ago, he became socially irrelevant. Some rando jagoff that doesn't understand the FIRST thing about geek culture, women's issues or Feminism comes in here and acts a fool, whatever. They're strangers.

But you're my actual friend, and when my friends hurt me, that hurts for real.