Being a woman in geek culture

[satindesire]

I endorse this post.

Keep being a smarmy babe yourself ;3

Oh, and one more thing, Lex: there was no thing as GREECE to the ancients. Modern-day Greece is just that: modern. Say it with me: nation-states. FUCK.

I love you, really!

To be honest, the question came from a place that, however generally it was phrased, intended it pretty much specifically for Satin Desire, which I'd say makes it even more ingraceful. But she answered, and thank you for that Satin.

I grok you man. Don't worry about it.

And I’m a historian - so with your admission, I’m doubly surprised that you still asked the question to begin with. But, taking into consideration that the idea is that this is a “safe” place, I’ll move forward from there.

All the articles you posted are great resources to bookmark in case these discussions come up again, which they will, so I'll be sure to mark these on my computer for future use.

With all my heart, I say thank you so very much for your education, time, patience and eloquence.

 

[Apollo Wilde]

So, to bring a bit of intersectionality back (after I derailed; sorry guiz), I thought I’d post this article:

http://www.xojane.com/issues/mad-back-cosplayer-chaka-cumberbatch

Now, I’m going to preface by saying I don’t usually like XOJane – I find their articles click-baity to say the least. And this one, at first glance, really isn’t any different.

However!

As a black cosplayer, I thought I’d weigh in (yes, I have photos, no, I won’t post them here. If you’re so inclined – and you should be, because I’m awesome – I have a set here: http://voodoohowyacall.tumblr.com/post/111918801735/2014-c-a-stevens#notes )

When I started cosplaying, the idea of cosplaying as a non-black character was never an issue for me. I never thought, “I need to be Japanese to cosplay a Sailor Soldier,” (I mention this in particular because I LOVE Sailor Moon as well), or, “I can’t cosplay as Princess Leia." It’s always been about, “I’m going to cosplay this character because I love her.” I’m definitely a casual cosplayer; I don’t do it often or spend consistent hours hemming or sewing. Don’t get me wrong; I put time into my cosplays, but they’re not a full time job.

What I HAVE run into whenever I look for help online when it comes to adjusting a costume/trying to figure out how to make them work, is a very clique-ish attitude. Even among black cosplayers. There are the established ones, and they tend to ignore/disregard newbies. I’ve been very lucky to have awesome local cosplayers (ironically, all male) to help me with the construction, designing, and places to buy. They also serve as great bodyguards at Cons (I can’t speak highly enough for my 501st boys. They are the best.)

I thought I’d also weigh in as I post my work on Tumblr – I haven’t received any jibes at being the wrong ‘color’ for the cosplays I’ve done. I’ve also turned off anonymous comments (because, well, people are terrible), and, you know, I’m beginning to wonder if I don’t get the same flack because I don’t don wigs.

I’ve mentioned before in the thread that I have dreadlocks, and while I could potentially wear a wig over them, I opt not to. I think my hair is amazing and should be showcased as is – which, ironically, might give me an edge in being a “race-bent” character. A wig is also an added expense that I don't need - especially a good one. And I have a lot of hair, so just the dynamics of trying to figure out how to shove it all under a wig isn't really an optimal use of time. But I do get a lot of the, "You're black, and a girl with dreadlocks, you should totally cosplay as Michonne!" (yeah, no).

Another difference is that I have actual experience with modeling. I was modeling long before I cosplayed, and when you've modeled for a while, you know how it works - black models, especially those who aren't fair, aren't really in demand. Oh, you're not 5'7 and a minimum of 110 pounds? Can't do runway or fashion. And so on.

You have to know your market, your body type, and advertise accordingly. There's also the age factor; I'm older than this girl (I'm a flat out ancient hag for most when it comes to cosplaying), and to me, it seems like this was her first taste of the awful of the internet.

I found myself thinking when I read this article, “Wow, where is she going to get that reaction?”, because it hadn’t been my experience. At my first major con (DragonCon), the first night I went out I was unmolested – (I figured Sailor StarFighter’s an obscure character) or harassed, even when I made the change to my Cammy cosplay – which is much more, um, revealing. What can I say – it’s a thong leotard.

Once I donned Cammy, it became a “Hey, can I get your picture?” “OMG A BLACK CAMMY THAT’S AWESOME”, and my favorite, “CAMMY BUTT!” (said by the American VA of Cammy. We had a good laugh about that one). At the cons here in town, I figured my open display and unabashed display of flesh made folks nervous and I was generally avoided. Annoying, but what I expected out of Austin. I never felt that it was racist, as so much as, “I don’t know what to do with / process what I’m looking at.”

The article was good because it gave me food for thought, but, as par usual, it made me wonder, “Why are our experiences so different? Will this happen to me? Is there anyone else that is black and cosplays and has stories more like mine?” Which, I think is always a good reminder from these articles.

While I don’t deny that racism is out there, I think sometimes we become TOO alert to it, and lose out on the opportunity to education and inform because we are too busy having a kneejerk reaction. With being a minority, there’s a tendency for the rest of the world to listen to a few select minority voices as the “spokesperson” for that race, and the following assumption is that we all think that way/have had the same experiences. I think the same can be said for feminism as well. So, to me, it becomes that much more important to ensure that there are a difference of opinions out there so the "Hivemind" mentality isn't perpetuated.

Have any of you ever encountered an article similar to this one that made you take a step back and compare/contrast your personal experiences?

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

So just in case anyone has missed the recent goings-on on the interbone about women in geek culture, I'm going to link a few articles/pages that will brush y'all up on what's happening lately.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/07/26/who-gets-to-be-a-geek-anyone-who-wants-to-be/

http://www.examiner.com/article/tim...-facts-women-are-and-have-long-been-geeks-too

http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/columns/article_90391094-4347-11e2-8805-001a4bcf6878.html

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/nerds-and-male-privilege/

As a woman who was introduced to geek culture while still wearing diapers, I feel frustrated that my "geek cred" has been questioned simply due to my gender. I feel frustrated that I cannot identify with many female characters due to their one-dimensional and heavily sexualized portrayals. I feel frustrated that when I speak about this, my concerns are outright dismissed as "hysterical", "irrational", or being told that the way women are portrayed in mainstream geek culture is "just part of the way it is and it's not going to change because mostly men are geeks".

What are your thoughts about this?

Have you experienced sexism in geek culture due to your gender?

How do YOU deal with it?

I am not even going to get with the philosophy of all which has transpired since you asked your question. I just want to say I think women who like who they are beautiful beyond description. Therefore I encourage you to be what you wish and to the hell with those who quibble with you.

I know you not and am not going to read all your posts to form a picture of you. That said I call you beautiful simply on the basis of your question and feelings. Be happy in your geek ism. Walk in beauty and light all your days and nights.

 

[KoPilot]

Have any of you ever encountered an article similar to this one that made you take a step back and compare/contrast your personal experiences?

This happens to me a lot when I read about trans experiences. Though it might be because of the manner in which I "pass" (I look cis enough, though am almost always assumed to be lesbian; and as we know, masculine women are much more accepted by society than feminine men).

Basically I consider myself lucky, really :1

 

[Primalex]

There was no "Greek race" you fuckwit. It was a geographic, linguistic, and religious distinction.

So gender-based discrimination is okay, because women are not a race? Interesting.

 

[Primalex]

There was no "Greek race" you fuckwit. It was a geographic, linguistic, and religious distinction. Ancient Greeks came in every color.

Of course, of course.

And poverty was of course the main reason, besides spoils of war, for slavery in Ancient Greece. After all, slaves could buy their freedom with money. If this is not capitalistic slavery, I don't know what is.

And now...who do you think was poor in Greece? The black Ethiopian or the white Greece?

 

[Primalex]

Ah yes, Project Gutenberg, something you likely have never heard of, has actually a digital copy of Aristotle's "Politics - A treatise on government"

We now proceed to point out what natural disposition the members of the community ought to be of: but this any one will easily perceive who will cast his eye over the states of Greece, of all others the most celebrated, and also the other different nations of this habitable world. Those who live in cold countries, as the north of Europe, are full of courage, but wanting in understanding and the arts: therefore they are very tenacious of their liberty; but, not being politicians, they cannot reduce their neighbours under their power: but the Asiatics, whose understandings are quick, and who are conversant in the arts, are deficient in courage; and therefore are always conquered and the slaves of others:

(For those who are not familiar with ancient texts: Asiatic is the Middle East, not the China-Asia.)



So, there is just one more message left, after stating all the facts:

 

[satindesire]

 

[KoPilot]

The words keep coming, but he has yet to actually say something...

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

This happens to me a lot when I read about trans experiences. Though it might be because of the manner in which I "pass" (I look cis enough, though am almost always assumed to be lesbian; and as we know, masculine women are much more accepted by society than feminine men).

Basically I consider myself lucky, really :1

I want to make a comment about what you say about society accepting masculine women more than feminine men.

I agree with you and wonder why this is apparent to some.

Consider a man who has been immersed in a Mans world for 40 or 50 years and just grows tired of the life, so he decides to take a softer roll in his later years. In my experience some, not all, women despise you for what you do and of coarse some men who have never immersed themselves in the mans world despise you also. I never found people, who had know me as a leader of men in dangerous situations or as a outdoorsman and adventure, worried about me when I decided to give to those who need me.

I also wonder why it is OK to show women being brutalized in some cases, does any one here remember the snuff porn movies where women were killed on screen. For a while everyone thought it was acting then they found out the women were actually being brutally killed for entertainment. I see some of the pictures of women being shown under the BDSM heading and know that some are not for fun. Some are women on drugs who will do anything for a fix. Some are actual brutality and who knows if they survive. Certainly not the viewer.

Just wondering why one case and taste is considered O.K. when gentle men who like having their women take control is so bad.

Just ramblings of nobody so don't worry. Yes I know the period is out of place.

 

[KoPilot]

I want to make a comment about what you say about society accepting masculine women more than feminine men.

I agree with you and wonder why this is apparent to some.

Consider a man who has been immersed in a Mans world for 40 or 50 years and just grows tired of the life, so he decides to take a softer roll in his later years. In my experience some, not all, women despise you for what you do and of coarse some men who have never immersed themselves in the mans world despise you also. I never found people, who had know me as a leader of men in dangerous situations or as a outdoorsman and adventure, worried about me when I decided to give to those who need me.

I also wonder why it is OK to show women being brutalized in some cases, does any one here remember the snuff porn movies where women were killed on screen. For a while everyone thought it was acting then they found out the women were actually being brutally killed for entertainment. I see some of the pictures of women being shown under the BDSM heading and know that some are not for fun. Some are women on drugs who will do anything for a fix. Some are actual brutality and who knows if they survive. Certainly not the viewer.

Just wondering why one case and taste is considered O.K. when gentle men who like having their women take control is so bad.

Just ramblings of nobody so don't worry. Yes I know the period is out of place.

Patriarchy. Women and female bodies are a sexual commodity, dammit, and that's an order. Men and masculine bodies are a commodity too, but they exist to provide labor. As soon as a woman tries to provide masculine labor, or a man gets confused for a sexual commodity, it's like the apocalypse is here and fucked up gender roles are the 4 horsemen. You pull an average westerner off the street and ask which image fucks them up more, a dog getting beat or a man in a dress, more than half will tell you the latter.

There's a very controversial figure in the BDSM world whose name is Maymay, and they've recently been putting out some writing on why BDSM as an institution and culture is so irredeemably fucked, but kink, as a completely independent concept, is worth saving. It's given me a lot to think about, and my knee-jerk reactions aren't so great, but I'm beginning to agree with that assessment.

Those snuff and exploitation films out there? The ones that brutalize women, children, and powerless people of all sorts? They exist because there's a market for that heinous shit. Somebody's paying up and getting off on it, even if they didn't enact any direct violence themselves. BDSM as a cultural institution can be seen as an environment where transactions like that happen all the time and which form the foundation. Compulsory sexuality, compulsory objectification-- it's a lot like having the "freedom" to get a soul-crushing job that you hate or be homeless and go to bed hungry. Being a worker makes you a compulsory labor-producing unit. Except in BDSM, the currency isn't money, it's social capital, and sometimes orgasms or bruises. But mostly social capital. So if you really want to hurt somebody, the system isn't designed to keep abuses from happening. It can only react to it, and BDSM has a heinously terrible track record of handling abusers.

 

[satindesire]

Not to mention femmephobia, commonly accepted so as to become invisible in our culture today (XYZ Like A Girl, Run Away Like A Little Bitch, Don't Be A Pussy) which means that feminine men, women, and especially feminine women are considered lesser because masculine/male=good feminine/women=bad.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I also wonder why it is OK to show women being brutalized in some cases, does any one here remember the snuff porn movies where women were killed on screen. For a while everyone thought it was acting then they found out the women were actually being brutally killed for entertainment.

Did that actually happen, though? There's a lot of talk about snuff porn films, but any time I try to find an actual documented case of one, it starts to seem like an urban myth. (I'm not counting stuff like serial killers who made videos of their victims without intending to distribute copies, or ISIS-type propaganda.)

The director of Cannibal Holocaust was charged with murdering four actors, but he got off after producing the actors alive and well.

I see some of the pictures of women being shown under the BDSM heading and know that some are not for fun. Some are women on drugs who will do anything for a fix. Some are actual brutality and who knows if they survive.

Quite likely so, but those concerns aren't unique to BDSM porn. Exploitation happens in vanilla porn too; a friend of mine did IT work for what was supposedly a "run by women" female-friendly porn company, and she saw a lot of unethical shit going on - women being pressured into stuff they didn't want to do. (And the "run by women" bit was a facade, too.) At the other end of things, there are BDSM actors who say they're consenting adults there by choice, and I have to take their word for it. I don't think whether a scene looks consensual is a good indicator of whether it is consensual.

But I do have qualms about it. Even where the making of the porn is completely consensual and ethical... I have to suspect there are still a lot of guys who watch it because they really hate women. I'm not sure what the answer is to that.

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

Did that actually happen, though? There's a lot of talk about snuff porn films, but any time I try to find an actual documented case of one, it starts to seem like an urban myth. (I'm not counting stuff like serial killers who made videos of their victims without intending to distribute copies, or ISIS-type propaganda.)

The director of Cannibal Holocaust was charged with murdering four actors, but he got off after producing the actors alive and well.



Quite likely so, but those concerns aren't unique to BDSM porn. Exploitation happens in vanilla porn too; a friend of mine did IT work for what was supposedly a "run by women" female-friendly porn company, and she saw a lot of unethical shit going on - women being pressured into stuff they didn't want to do. (And the "run by women" bit was a facade, too.) At the other end of things, there are BDSM actors who say they're consenting adults there by choice, and I have to take their word for it. I don't think whether a scene looks consensual is a good indicator of whether it is consensual.

But I do have qualms about it. Even where the making of the porn is completely consensual and ethical... I have to suspect there are still a lot of guys who watch it because they really hate women. I'm not sure what the answer is to that.

The movies I am talking about were reported on the regular news (yeas I know how the regular news can fabricate news stories) as I remember in the late 70s perhaps very early 80s. They were coming out of Brazil and were mostly seen in New York. Or that is where they were first discovered and first reported. At the time it caused so concern among the whole porn industry. Have to remember this was not long after the whole Viet Nam and Cambodia incidents (khmer roughe, pol pot ). People were hardened to the plight of others and were needing more to get off on. Just my take on why.

Any way Often when I am looking at a thread I will question what I am seeing. I like all kinds of ideas and support most peoples sticks IF they are to both parties open and honest desire. Doing something for drugs is not open and honest desire in my humble Opinion. I find it more believable that a strong man would be willing to kiss a woman's foot . let her order dinner or kiss other parts she enjoys. than a woman whose breasts are purple or her feet look as if they are dead from no blood. Hell I would find it exciting to wear a furry collar for some of the ladies here and know I enjoy the hell out of just kneeling down and holding my face against a nice but or vulva and feeling the warmth. Kiss her foot yep done that and like it. Just an old wanders observations. Sometimes a bit confused but never lost. (for long that is)

 

[KoPilot]

Did that actually happen, though? There's a lot of talk about snuff porn films, but any time I try to find an actual documented case of one, it starts to seem like an urban myth. (I'm not counting stuff like serial killers who made videos of their victims without intending to distribute copies, or ISIS-type propaganda.)

The director of Cannibal Holocaust was charged with murdering four actors, but he got off after producing the actors alive and well.

Wouldn't the actual torture and killing of the animals in the film still constitute snuff? I mean, a porno that has women stomping on toys instead of live puppies is still considered "crush".

Quite likely so, but those concerns aren't unique to BDSM porn. Exploitation happens in vanilla porn too; a friend of mine did IT work for what was supposedly a "run by women" female-friendly porn company, and she saw a lot of unethical shit going on - women being pressured into stuff they didn't want to do. (And the "run by women" bit was a facade, too.) At the other end of things, there are BDSM actors who say they're consenting adults there by choice, and I have to take their word for it. I don't think whether a scene looks consensual is a good indicator of whether it is consensual.

But I do have qualms about it. Even where the making of the porn is completely consensual and ethical... I have to suspect there are still a lot of guys who watch it because they really hate women. I'm not sure what the answer is to that.

The porn industry, IMO, is as fucked and guilty as any other part of the system and if I can just not watch porn, I'm not going to. Live action porn isn't necessary to our existence, nor is it necessary to our sexual pleasure. Read smut. Roleplay. Watch hentai or look at erotic art. Find a fuck buddy. There are so many ways to go about getting a fix without resorting to porn. I just don't see the point in supporting the industry at all. Like the fishing industry. 90% of the world's oceans are empty compared to a couple centuries ago. Do we need fish now? Is fish such an integral part of our diet that we can and will empty the oceans of everything but whales and jellyfish? How about we just... stop eating fish maybe?

 

[Primalex]

Not to mention femmephobia, commonly accepted so as to become invisible in our culture today (XYZ Like A Girl, Run Away Like A Little Bitch, Don't Be A Pussy) which means that feminine men, women, and especially feminine women are considered lesser because masculine/male=good feminine/women=bad.

Is it because they are considered lesser or because certain traits are associated with the terms, like physical inferiority, which is absolutely no-go for a guy? Who is discriminated here? The guy, who fails to meet the cultural view of men as physically superior or the women, who is used as generalized benchmark?

"You cook like a girl."
"You cook like my grandmother did."

It's much more difficult to associate an insult with the latter sentence, yet obviously both are comparisons with women. It's the traits we associate with the terms:
"You run like my grandmother." is an insult, because we don't associate speed and fitness with older women. "You run like my grandfather." is obviously an insult, too, although the benchmark this time is male. But we don't associate speed and fitness with an old man either. This does not mean though that I view old man as inferior beings on this planet, I just view them as inferior to young man regarding speed and fitness. This is generalization, which means when it is applied to an individual, it can be still totally wrong.

 

[Primalex]

The porn industry, IMO, is as fucked and guilty as any other part of the system[...] Read smut.

So a story about brutalizing women is better than a video about it?


(In case you want to start your argument that a book is less harmful to society, you should consider the effect of religious books. After all, people killed for a book much, much earlier than for a video.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

The movies I am talking about were reported on the regular news (yeas I know how the regular news can fabricate news stories) as I remember in the late 70s perhaps very early 80s. They were coming out of Brazil and were mostly seen in New York.

This is sounding a lot like Cannibal Holocaust (filmed in the Amazon, released 1980, got a lot of publicity and was initially believed to be a snuff film) so I'm wondering if the reports you remember were based on that. I'm not discounting the possibility of genuine snuff films existing, but it's hard to find anything solid.

Wouldn't the actual torture and killing of the animals in the film still constitute snuff? I mean, a porno that has women stomping on toys instead of live puppies is still considered "crush".

I think torturing animals for a film is vile, but I wouldn't count that as "snuff"; I've always taken that term to mean specifically human victims, and certainly that was the context I was responding to.

The porn industry, IMO, is as fucked and guilty as any other part of the system and if I can just not watch porn, I'm not going to. Live action porn isn't necessary to our existence, nor is it necessary to our sexual pleasure. Read smut. Roleplay. Watch hentai or look at erotic art. Find a fuck buddy. There are so many ways to go about getting a fix without resorting to porn. I just don't see the point in supporting the industry at all.

I think that "as any other part of the system" is where it gets difficult.

As a generalisation sex work is a nasty, dangerous, exploitative profession, but a lot of people who do it are there because for them it's the least shitty option on a menu of shitty options. When that's the environment, shutting down that industry just forces people to go to something worse. So we have these sex-worker "rescue" programs where the cops raid some third-world brothel and "free" the women there, and then if they're lucky they get offered a crappy assembly-line job where they make a third of what they were getting before, and as soon as the White Saviours are done patting themselves on the back in front of the cameras, those "rescued" women go back into sex work because they still need the money.

Is that dynamic the same for porn as for prostitution? I don't know. But I'm wary of taking away somebody's livelihood without knowing what the better option is that they can go to.

My preferred solution would be "fix/replace capitalism so nobody HAS to make those sorts of tradeoffs" but I don't have a good plan for that either :-/

But in the meantime, yeah, I'm not willing to pay for live-action porn. And I try to be responsible with what I write; there's a lot of NC stuff that doesn't get out of my head because I don't trust everybody to keep that stuff in the same "consensual fantasy" zone where I'd be writing it.

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

This is sounding a lot like Cannibal Holocaust (filmed in the Amazon, released 1980, got a lot of publicity and was initially believed to be a snuff film) so I'm wondering if the reports you remember were based on that. I'm not discounting the possibility of genuine snuff films existing, but it's hard to find anything solid.



I think torturing animals for a film is vile, but I wouldn't count that as "snuff"; I've always taken that term to mean specifically human victims, and certainly that was the context I was responding to.



I think that "as any other part of the system" is where it gets difficult.

As a generalisation sex work is a nasty, dangerous, exploitative profession, but a lot of people who do it are there because for them it's the least shitty option on a menu of shitty options. When that's the environment, shutting down that industry just forces people to go to something worse. So we have these sex-worker "rescue" programs where the cops raid some third-world brothel and "free" the women there, and then if they're lucky they get offered a crappy assembly-line job where they make a third of what they were getting before, and as soon as the White Saviours are done patting themselves on the back in front of the cameras, those "rescued" women go back into sex work because they still need the money.

Is that dynamic the same for porn as for prostitution? I don't know. But I'm wary of taking away somebody's livelihood without knowing what the better option is that they can go to.

My preferred solution would be "fix/replace capitalism so nobody HAS to make those sorts of tradeoffs" but I don't have a good plan for that either :-/

But in the meantime, yeah, I'm not willing to pay for live-action porn. And I try to be responsible with what I write; there's a lot of NC stuff that doesn't get out of my head because I don't trust everybody to keep that stuff in the same "consensual fantasy" zone where I'd be writing it.

Wish I remembered more. I was long ago and I was not into watching movies that much. Especially anything like that. We liked the "Candy" movies and ones that were fun but nothing beyond that. Did like the soft porn of movies like "The Sailor Who Fell from grace with the Sea" of the 70's. That was the time of magazines and movies that had a storyline. Lots happened then.

Lots if not all we agree on.

 

[KoPilot]

I'm a fucken idiot blah blah blah thoughtcrime

Yes. Yes you are a fuckin' idiot.

 

[KoPilot]

I think torturing animals for a film is vile, but I wouldn't count that as "snuff"; I've always taken that term to mean specifically human victims, and certainly that was the context I was responding to.

I guess I was wondering, in a roundabout way, whether the same people who get off on that sick shit would also get off on another type of creature getting killed.

I think that "as any other part of the system" is where it gets difficult.

As a generalisation sex work is a nasty, dangerous, exploitative profession, but a lot of people who do it are there because for them it's the least shitty option on a menu of shitty options. When that's the environment, shutting down that industry just forces people to go to something worse. So we have these sex-worker "rescue" programs where the cops raid some third-world brothel and "free" the women there, and then if they're lucky they get offered a crappy assembly-line job where they make a third of what they were getting before, and as soon as the White Saviours are done patting themselves on the back in front of the cameras, those "rescued" women go back into sex work because they still need the money.

Is that dynamic the same for porn as for prostitution? I don't know. But I'm wary of taking away somebody's livelihood without knowing what the better option is that they can go to.

My preferred solution would be "fix/replace capitalism so nobody HAS to make those sorts of tradeoffs" but I don't have a good plan for that either :-/

But in the meantime, yeah, I'm not willing to pay for live-action porn. And I try to be responsible with what I write; there's a lot of NC stuff that doesn't get out of my head because I don't trust everybody to keep that stuff in the same "consensual fantasy" zone where I'd be writing it.

I've been thinking about this sort of stuff long and hard lately, and I think that the slogan "fight where you stand" is a valid tactic. But it's important to keep things in perspective-- it is a tactic, and not the only one. Nor should it be done for its own sake.

We make purchasing decisions all the time based on our personal sets of ethics. We may not shop at Walmart because of the way they treat their employees or what they do to the local economies they muscle into; we may prefer to buy products made in the US, or fair trade. Every consumer decision we make means our money goes to person A and not person B. Like with the environmental movement, a lot of perceptions of the average Joe is that it's environmentalists vs. jobs, not environmentalists vs. extractive culture. People who protest against fracking are against the practice, not the people who may or may not be willingly taking jobs in the fracking industry. We just want them to be able to feed their families without destroying the environment. At the same time, it's possible to be pro-sex worker without being pro-sex work. (And if you're like me, you are by default since you're against all jobs and work as they're constructed by capitalism.)

You can take action against an industry without victimizing or villainizing the people who work in that industry; it happens all the time. And IMO, it's better than doing nothing because the current rhetoric of liberal social justice posits that all jobs are created equal and that wanting to do a job is enough justification for it to exist.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I guess I was wondering, in a roundabout way, whether the same people who get off on that sick shit would also get off on another type of creature getting killed.

Ah, right. I wouldn't be surprised; IIRC tormenting animals is one of the classic signs of sociopathy. And I'd expect a lot of people who watch stuff like CH are getting off on the simulated snuff aspects.

I can believe there are a lot of people who would watch snuff if they could access it without risk to themselves, and others who'd happily make it and sell it. I'm just skeptical about whether it's a viable business IRL - like kidnapping tourists to steal their organs for transplants, yes you could do it, but there are safer and probably cheaper ways to meet the same need.

We make purchasing decisions all the time based on our personal sets of ethics. We may not shop at Walmart because of the way they treat their employees or what they do to the local economies they muscle into; we may prefer to buy products made in the US, or fair trade. Every consumer decision we make means our money goes to person A and not person B. Like with the environmental movement, a lot of perceptions of the average Joe is that it's environmentalists vs. jobs, not environmentalists vs. extractive culture. People who protest against fracking are against the practice, not the people who may or may not be willingly taking jobs in the fracking industry. We just want them to be able to feed their families without destroying the environment. At the same time, it's possible to be pro-sex worker without being pro-sex work. (And if you're like me, you are by default since you're against all jobs and work as they're constructed by capitalism.)

I'm very lucky in having a job that I enjoy, enough so that if I didn't have to work to put food on the table I'd still consider doing this as a hobby. (Well, some parts of it. Not the TPS reports.)

But, yeah, we have this weird thing where we've taken an unpleasant necessity (nobody wants to empty the garbage but somebody has to) and coupled it to self-esteem and resource allocation: even if we now have robots to empty the garbage, you need to find SOMETHING to do, otherwise you're a failure who doesn't deserve to eat. The response should be "Hooray, now we have a group of people who don't need to work any more!" but we haven't figured out a good model for getting those people fed.

You can take action against an industry without victimizing or villainizing the people who work in that industry; it happens all the time. And IMO, it's better than doing nothing because the current rhetoric of liberal social justice posits that all jobs are created equal and that wanting to do a job is enough justification for it to exist.

Yeah, I'm fine with the "shop elsewhere" approach. If I spend my money on books instead of porn, maybe that creates a new opportunity for somebody who would otherwise have been doing porn for the money. And I think that's all you were advocating for here?

But I wandered off on a bit of a tangent about more coercive approaches that attempt to shut down an admittedly-crappy industry without providing an alternative. (Tangents are my thing.)

 

[Primalex]

If I spend my money on books instead of porn, maybe that creates a new opportunity for somebody who would otherwise have been doing porn for the money.

Can you really type this and keep a straight face?

 

[KoPilot]

Can you really type this and keep a straight face?

Reformist pleebs don't get to be part of this discussion.

 

[Netzach]

This is sounding a lot like Cannibal Holocaust (filmed in the Amazon, released 1980, got a lot of publicity and was initially believed to be a snuff film) so I'm wondering if the reports you remember were based on that. I'm not discounting the possibility of genuine snuff films existing, but it's hard to find anything solid.



I think torturing animals for a film is vile, but I wouldn't count that as "snuff"; I've always taken that term to mean specifically human victims, and certainly that was the context I was responding to.



I think that "as any other part of the system" is where it gets difficult.

As a generalisation sex work is a nasty, dangerous, exploitative profession, but a lot of people who do it are there because for them it's the least shitty option on a menu of shitty options. When that's the environment, shutting down that industry just forces people to go to something worse. So we have these sex-worker "rescue" programs where the cops raid some third-world brothel and "free" the women there, and then if they're lucky they get offered a crappy assembly-line job where they make a third of what they were getting before, and as soon as the White Saviours are done patting themselves on the back in front of the cameras, those "rescued" women go back into sex work because they still need the money.

Is that dynamic the same for porn as for prostitution? I don't know. But I'm wary of taking away somebody's livelihood without knowing what the better option is that they can go to.

My preferred solution would be "fix/replace capitalism so nobody HAS to make those sorts of tradeoffs" but I don't have a good plan for that either :-/

But in the meantime, yeah, I'm not willing to pay for live-action porn. And I try to be responsible with what I write; there's a lot of NC stuff that doesn't get out of my head because I don't trust everybody to keep that stuff in the same "consensual fantasy" zone where I'd be writing it.

Um how about everybody actually accepts that "the sex industry" and "the porn industry" are both very big tents with a multitude of people working in them for a multitude of reasons.

Some people in the industries are exploited and have no choice. Eat anything in a restaurant lately? Wear clothes? Used sweatshop threads are still sweatshop threads, we're all in it.

I've worked with a lot of women like me, and totally not like me. I'm fed the fuck up with the stereotype that everyone other than the college educated have to be doing sex work because they're coked, abused, and too stupid to know how bad the bad thing they do is. If that makes me a reformist pleeb, so be it, but fuck this. Heartily. I've seen more class-based hypocricy among class-intersectionality warriors going after this topic than I ever might have internalized in prep school.

None of you know when to shut the fuck up and listen and let the sex workers tell you what we/they want and need. Guess what - if , nay WHEN, we have a problem with the people who cut our checks, there is a very powerful grapevine effect. We can organize and do organize, in a multitude of informal networks and the last thing we fucking need is someone outside the entire scene sticking it to the people who cut our checks while "supporting us as people."

I don't care if you choose to get off to manga instead of indie ********** clips, but this doesn't exactly confer sainthood, and nine times in ten people who "never pay for porn" are pirating our shit. That's SO kind of you.

How about asking some actual women what would make life better. It's not all la la la yay sex positive, but it's not all trafficking either.