Cherry picking comments

[ClockworkBanana]

Yes, we disagree, including on what asking for writing issue feedback constitutes here. That's sort of the whole point. I go with what the Web site is. So, I guess you're sort of out of luck until you put up your own Web site.

These things are not set in stone. This site has changed policies before. Just because it currently does things one way doesn't mean its invalid to discuss the possibilities and merits of the site doing something a different way.

Show where I posted that no one was qualified to give writing guidance in comments.

If you run out of good argument, you start just making it up?

Huh? I directly quoted you saying that in my post.

Again:

And that the only way to assume that they want writing skill development is if they directly ask for it. Then, yes, give them feedback. But you really should have significantly more experience in writing than they do before you do that.

You directly said that one should only give feedback if they "have significantly more experience in writing." That's what I'm disagreeing with. You don't need to have more writing feedback in order to express your opinion on a piece, that's very elitist thinking.

This is a getting circular. You have your opinion and it doesn't match what we do here. I'm happy leaving it like that.

Saying "it's what we do here" is not a valid argument. I am well aware of the current policy. Basically I'm saying "What do people think of the current policy?" and your counter argument is "WELL IT'S THE CURRENT POLICY TOUGH LUCK." I'm debating the MERITS of the policy, not whether or not it exists.

 

[sr71plt]

You directly said that one should only give feedback if they "have significantly more experience in writing." That's what I'm disagreeing with. You don't need to have more writing feedback in order to express your opinion on a piece, that's very elitist thinking.

No, you said that you agreed with what LC posted. He misrepresented what I posted, has been challenged, and has not substantiated his misrepresentation.

And you have made false assumptions about that line I posted. I have not been posting on "what I like" opinion. I've been posting on the tenor of what you said you were giving in comment in your OP--essentially instruction on doing it right. Of course if you have no more experience in what is right than then one you are posting to beyond pointing out misspellings and such (which is pretty petty feedback right there), you have no business giving "instruction."

Again, just forget it. You've given your opinion--about thirty-six times--and it doesn't match what exists here. So, your opinion on this means nothing to me until/unless the Web site institutes your "you must keep all of my precious comment up" preferences.

 

[ClockworkBanana]

No, you said that you agreed with what LC posted. He misrepresented what I posted, has been challenged, and has not substantiated his misrepresentation.

Maybe he did, but I disagreed with your assertion that you must have "more experience" in order to post a comment. You are obviously biased in the sense that you apparently hate all commentators/readers and think that only established and experienced authors should be allowed to express their opinion of a work here.

And you have made false assumptions about that line I posted. I have not been posting on "what I like" opinion. I've been posting on the tenor of what you said you were giving in comment in your OP--essentially instruction on doing it right. Of course if you have no more experience in what is right than then one you are posting to beyond pointing out misspellings and such (which is pretty petty feedback right there), you have no business giving "instruction."

You seem to have a hard time differentiating between "expressing one's opinion" and "giving demands/instruction." I'm sorry that I don't meet whatever bizarre quota or standards that you seem to require before one is allowed to express their opinion. Tell how many stories does one have to write before you allow them to express their opinion on a work?

Again, just forget it. You've given your opinion--about thirty-six times--and it doesn't match what exists here. So, your opinion on this means nothing to me until/unless the Web site institutes your "you must keep all of my precious comment up" preferences.

For the last time, YES, I understand that it doesn't "match up with what exists here." I'm simply trying to raise a debate as to whether it would be good or bad. "I don't care about your opinion" is not a response to my logic, it is an ad hominem. Almost everyone else has remained civilized, but your arguments basically boil down to personal attacks as well as constantly repeating "WELL THAT'S NOT HOW THE SITE CURRENTLY IS SO IT DOESN'T MATTER!"

Everyone in this thread except for you has been able to express their points logically and in a civil fashion. I totally respect the opinions of Bramblebush and PennLady who have disagreed with my points in a logical and intelligent fashion without resorting to the logical fallacies of personal attacks or "Well that's not the way it currently works so there's no need to talk about" which is basically all that your argument boils down to.

This back and forth with you is getting tiring - I'm going to go ahead and put you on my ignore list mostly because I don't want this to go on forever and I don't trust my self control to not respond. If it was a healthy respectful back and forth debate that would be one thing but you've clearly lowered the bar so that it is not. And thus I must reiterate that I am NOT putting you on my ignore list because you have a different opinion than me (as I said, Bramblebush and PennLady have different opinions but are able to express them rationally and normally without being insulting, which is what constitutes a healthy back and forth and is what I was hoping for in the thread) but because of your constant personal attacks and your constant repetition of "WELL THAT'S THE WAY THINGS WORK HERE SO IT'S NOT WORTH TALKING ABOUT"

 

[sr71plt]

Sounds good. I'll put you on ignore too. One less person to suffer who simply must have all his golden words preserved.

Not much of a loss that I can see. Other this this opinion piece, I haven't seen anything you've contributed to this Web site.

 

[lovecraft68]

See, still trying to get the last word. I am not going to spend all day searching posts, because you have made the remark that people are not qualified to critique more than once. However, easy enough here. This is post #5 from this thread

This is basically a reading site. It doesn't advertise itself as a critique site. The Web site gives the author free rein to accept or reject comments (while giving even "anonymous" the privilege of rating and commenting. So, it's the authors' call on what they accept and reject in the way of comments. It might be too bad that they can't accept/reject ratings too. The reads are free. Maybe readers should accept them as that and not go out of their way to "teach" what they think they know well enough to teach.

You're saying the readers don;t know enough about writing to give any constructive criticism and pointers. Let me ask you in all seriousness how do you know that? How do you know someone who has read your story isn't someone with writing experience themselves or has the background for it? Or do you truly think you're the only one out there that does?

And again, mo one needs a degree to make a comment like I received before saying I keep getting the words "lie and lay" wrong. They gave an example of each and sure enough when I looked it up they were correct. Anyone with some basic English can point things like that out.


Post #47

This all boils down to the poster of negative comment wanting to show their superiority--not just to the author, who read it before deleting it, so that part of registering the comment has been accomplished, but to all other readers of the story. That's arrogance--and I might add, that most commenters don't have an ounce more knowledge of creative writing than the author they are commenting on does. There certainly isn't a way to demonstrate such expertise to the authors here than being an author here yourself and posting superlative examples of writing.

Off the hook a little by adding the word "most" but again, you don;t know that. Few comments get into very intricate grammar issues. Most are basic, "You could use a proof reader" or "they're and their" are 2 different words and meanings. again you do not need formal training to know this.

Also you mentioned in a couple of posts about people being arrogant in their comments. Really? You of all people are going to throw around that word?

You also have to tout the "I'm a professional writer" remark. Of course you are, so is everyone else here that has published something for sale. "Listen" to your posts, you stubbornly blame all your scores on trolls who don;t like you. You are so pretentious and full of yourself you cannot get it through your head there are people here who don't think your work is that good.

And if they don't like it, its apparently because they are not qualified to do so, because how could they not be falling to their knees thanking God they had a chance to read such amazing(previously released elsewhere) material?

Oh, and seeing I'm responding to you, this does not qualify as an attempt at a last word. I did wander off, but you seemed to feel the need to pull me back because it bugs you when I walk away.

LC! LC! Don;t you walk away from me! Get your ass back here, I'm not done dammit!

Insert whining noise here.

 

[SecondCircle]

No, I get the last word, haha!

This discussion has gotten funny. I didn't "substantiate" my comment because I was hungry. I left the forum to go eat. But that's okay, I don't think I could have said things better than the others here.

No problem with pilot thinking he's more experienced, but it's been quoted several times that he doesn't appreciate comments from those he deems less experienced.

You did say that, right? Is there a better way for me to interpret that?

And yes I did disrespect you, and I intended too. I just figured I'd be nice about it. Sorry.

 

[GinaeEvans]

I just received a very long, thought-out comment. It wasn't exactly favorable, but the person left me a long list on things I need to improve. I latch onto these kind of comments the most. In turn, my score went down one hundreth of a point but I feel satisfied regardless.

He/she obviously took the time to sit and type a helpful response, even if he/she didn't like my story.

I wish they'd left their name, I'd like to give them my thanks.

 

[RedMonkeyButt]

Not sure if this is the right board for this, feel free to move if not so.

Am I the only one annoyed by authors who delete every single bit of even slightly negative feedback?

I posted a comment on a (over three year old) story by a top author on this site. I said that I loved his other work but that this particular work was still good but not quite up to par with his previous work, and said that in this case I thought some character motivations weren't believable and I thought I explained my reasoning fairly well.

Within a day or so, my comment was deleted...despite the fact that it was on a story that was over three years old and the author has tons of different stories! I really lost a lot of respect for this author, especially since I put a lot of effort into the comment and thought I gave some pretty well thought out analysis.

I can understand why trolling comments should be deleted, or why you would want to delete something that just says "THIS STORY SUCKS!!!!!!", but it seems ridiculous to me that authors are allowed to delete every single comment they so desire, and thus some choose to delete every comment that isn't overwhelmingly positive (I mean, I still said the story was good and that he was an excellent author, I just had some criticism for parts of one story.)

Would it maybe be feasible to have some sort of situation where the author can choose to turn comments on or off, but if they choose to have comments turned on, they aren't allowed to cherrypick the comments themselves? (but obviously they and others can flag troll comments and ones that just say "THIS STORY SUCKS!!!" and have a mod look into it).

I personally leave all the comments up on my stories, whether they're trolls, helpful, scornful or otherwise. I get great amusement out of the trolls, and the rest are generally helpful in some way.

To answer your question of whether it would be feasible to leave the option of whether the comment stays or goes up to a moderator, no I don't believe it would be. Here's why:

1. Moderators would need to be paid to sit in front of their computers all day and weed out which flagged comments are actually spam and which are just an author with hurt feelings. No one is kindhearted enough to tackle that task for free.

2. The moderator may know the author from the forums and decide that they don't like them. With this bias, they could decide to leave even heated personal attacks up to be seen by the public and since the comments are moderated by an outside party, the author would be helpless to do anything about it.
2a. On the flip side, an author may have felt scorned by the moderator when s/he didn't delete a flagged comment on one of their stories, and so will go and flood the moderator with flagged comments with no rhyme or reason to the flagging.

As it is now, authors can control the visible feedback on their stories. Whether they leave everything up or they take everything down, or anywhere in between... that is entirely up to them. Readers who see the comments have the choice to go in and flag any they think are harmful, or wrong, or maybe they just don't like the way the poster spelled something. Whether or not anyone is on the other end to moderate these flagged comments is another issue entirely, but the option is there.

You took the time to write out a thoughtful critique of an author's work, and that author turned around and deleted it. Yes, it hurts to be so shunned as a reader.

To know that the author truly does not care can be hurtful. But you still read the story and took the time to comment, and that's all the author really needs. I know that seems cold, but it's true. All that matters in an authors rating here on the site is the vote. Comments are irrelevant. The only time I think an author should be required to at least pretend to care about the readership is when they're published and selling. Showing appreciation when someone just spent money on your work is a lot different from showing it when they only show enough interest to write a comment.

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

I've deleted fewer than ten comments out of those posted to my 565 stories here, and if you look at my stories, you'll see a few humdingers here and there that I've left--although, surprisingly enough (to some backbiters here), I generally get very favorable comments on my stories. My fan club might be comparatively small, but it's here--and it's quite large enough for my satisfaction. Those who would want to assert that I delete all negative comments are blowing smoke if they haven't researched that point.

Most of what I've deleted were comments about me personally or were just an anti-gay diatribe and weren't about the story at all. A few have been by someone with his/her head up their ass on a commercial fiction point (Re that point about many commenters not knowing what the hell they're talking about--I'm a professional writer). One was from Freddie, which was complimentary up to the last sentence where he said my story was almost as good as what he writes. I don't feel an obligation to advertise for Freddie's stories and it was obvious why he posted the comment.

I don't have to be personally involved in an issue before coming to the aid of the authors on Literotica. I'm just espousing the principle that anyone coming here just to have fun writing and wanting to connect positively with others should be left the hell alone to do so, no matter how bad their prose is--because the Web site was set up to accommodate that. And that the only way to assume that they want writing skill development is if they directly ask for it. Then, yes, give them feedback. But you really should have significantly more experience in writing than they do before you do that.

Does this get charged as a "last word" attempt? I was responding to a direct question.

Gotta say I agree with most of this. I think I've deleted 3 comments in 10 years.

This site does cater to the writers, and encourages novices and gives them a chance to express themselves. If they feel they need to delete their comments, I have no issue with that.

I don't agree with the 'having more experience' bit. I'll take the critique from where I can get it, and either blow it off, or learn from it. I honestly believe that my writing has improved from reading comments and emails about my stories.

I DO wish that instead of the comment 'disappearing', you would get some kind of message like "this comment deleted my author". It's a little more honest all around.

My $.02

 

[SevenSquared]

This is going to sound like the lamest "let's just be friends" response ever, but I sort of agree with everyone. Fortunately I don't really have a reputation on the forum for pulling punches, so hopefully this will be taken at face value.

First off, I very much agree with SecondCircle that this is a topic worth discussing. It kind of irks me when writers do this as well (for a reason I will describe in a minute). I don't mind if authors don't accept comments at all, that's fine. I also don't mind if authors delete comments for the six reasons that PacoBear describes (although personally I tend to leave comments that fall in those categories, it's certainly tempting to delete some of them and one day I probably will). I even kind of agree with most of what LC and Pilot are saying (I don't think either of their views are unreasonable, or even that they actually disagree that much, I just think their hatred of each other tends to turn them into the ultimate devil's advocates of each other).

I accept that every author's story is their 'personal space' and they have a right to decide what should and shouldn't be there. I think the only reason it irks me is because of this. I think the pressure towards conformity is a strong thing and pretty much everybody is subject to it to some degree. I think a lot of people read a story and don't really like it that much, but then will read nothing but praise in the comments section and will start to question their own conviction, giving it a higher mark that they otherwise would have done or leaving a more positive comment of their own.

This in itself wouldn't be a problem on its own, but there are elements of competition on this site. Not only are there contests, but there are 'most popular' lists, the hall of fame, even the writers list and all of these might be influenced by the conformity effect. I'm not saying a bad story will ever look like a bestseller based on comment control, but when it comes down to the margin it could make a difference, effectively penalising an author who doesn't moderate his comments and leaves a balanced, honest assessment of his work for all to see.

Maybe a decent compromise would be to allow authors to delete comments, but leave a paper trail that they have done so. For each one, leave a box that says [this comment has been deleted] or something. Just so it is clear which stories are getting unadulterated praise and which ones are just censored to appear that way.

Just food for thought.

 

[lovecraft68]

How appropriate!

I just today received this remark

A lovely tale...

spoiled only by a few jarring misuses of language. For example, the past tense of lie is lay. Unless it's about being dishonest, in which case it's lied. Words have meanings. Don't disrespect them. I gave you four for a fine story, despite the silly errors.

Now this story was written a year ago and I looked back through it today and he is correct. I screwed that up a few times.

Now, I don't think anyone has to be a "professional" to make this remark. If you read it, he is correct.

And IMO I think only a very thin skinned person would not leave that remark up.

 

[RedMonkeyButt]

How appropriate!

I just today received this remark

A lovely tale...

spoiled only by a few jarring misuses of language. For example, the past tense of lie is lay. Unless it's about being dishonest, in which case it's lied. Words have meanings. Don't disrespect them. I gave you four for a fine story, despite the silly errors.

Now this story was written a year ago and I looked back through it today and he is correct. I screwed that up a few times.

Now, I don't think anyone has to be a "professional" to make this remark. If you read it, he is correct.

And IMO I think only a very thin skinned person would not leave that remark up.

I love these types of comments because they make me go back and look more critically at my work, and later on I watch myself and try to keep from making the same mistakes.

 

[someoneyouknow]

I fully admit I'm still a newb compared to those who have pages of stories, but as I said in a similar thread, I have only ever deleted one comment (so far) simply because it was being negative for the sake of being negative.

Some on here keep those comments as badges of honor, and I can see their point, but for me, yeah, I know I'm no Hemingway, Aristotle or Dan Brown (hah! gothca!), but if you're going to leave a negative comment, at least let it be constructive. For example, one of the comments in a story pointed out, in a joking way, that I had mixed the genders in a scene. That forced me to make sure, from that point forward, to check and recheck when a scene can get complicated so far as who is talking or what is going on.

I almost deleted a second comment from my current story but have kept it because despite it being negative for the sake of being negative, there is the barest nugget of truth in it and is something I might want to consider in the future.

Other than that, the comments are what they are and stand as testament to ones ability to motivate people in whatever way.

 

[NymphWriter]

Deleted Comments

I will honestly admit to deleting some comments. I did it because someone mentioned some "personal" information about me personally that upset me. Recently, I had someone leave two very mean and nasty comments on two different stories that really upset me. Instead of deleting those comments, I wrote a private message to the person (as they at least had the balls to not hide behind the guise of being "anonymous" like so many do) and asked why the attack. The person did reply back and explained to me their reason for what they wrote. Even though I didn't agree with the comments, I left them on the two stories in question. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[sr71plt]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

You certainly can decided for yourself what to keep and what to erase, but leaving a comment on your story isn't really an entitlement on this Web site. The Web site has defined the story as yours and given you the power to pick and choose how it's decorated. If someone came through in the middle of the night and left a dead moose on your front porch, would you leave it there? It's your story, just like your house is your house. If you leave the comment there it's because you wanted to (or because forum threads like this guilted you to); it doesn't have anything to do with someone else's entitlements--or freedom of speech or to slap their opinions on your story. Not the same thing at all on this Web site.