Collective story

[Sir_Winston54]

The link to this thread is going into my "weird shit people say that I couldn't even make up" file.

Thank you, Stella, for my morning chuckle, and btw, I like the new AV!

 

[littlelulu30]

Thanks for taking the time to post the ws. I admit I hadn´t read it but even if I had, can´t “BDSM related fantasy” comprise story telling? I don´t take it as fiction being banned from here. It would be good to state it in the form of a disclaimer for creators of fictional stories. That would prevent any ambiguity and people “violating the rules”. On the other hand, I don´t think the tittle I put on this thread leads to anything but fiction. So, if you didn´t want to read a story when you enter the BDSM Talk section, you just had to abstain from clicking on it.
I will quote some of Cutie’s comments now cause I need to cover some this person's remarks. Please, don´t take it as a personal attack. I don´t know why you’re questioning that I don’t mind productive contributions. I meant what i said when I wrote that I like to discuss to good purpose. I think interacting in a healthy way can sometimes lead to some level of understanding. Where did you get the idea that I aim to control anything that’s been posted? I liked your first contribution much better. You seem to have picked up the wrong approach in your second by twisting my views. The “it’s just fiction crap” is the whole point, cause it is just fiction indeed.
“your story misrepresents healthy dominant and submissive traits and expressions of power”
My comment was obviously in reference to the discussion held here, not the OP. Mixing reality with fiction is not going to take your argumentation further.
“Just because a story involves lots of primal, alpha, "me man; you woman" stuff, doesn't make it BDSM”
Did I say any of this? I don´t think I’ve been even close. I understand those who are bothered by the fact that when a story portraits BDSM scenes in them it is classified as BDSM but that doesn´t have anything to do with my OP. It was an invitation to participate in the text. I depicted a man’s desire towards a woman. How this managed to displease you so much, i don´t know.
In my opinion, the "me, man, you woman" flirtation process that you disdain is perfectly legitimate. In sexual interaction, bdsm or otherwise, there is usually one that runs the show and one that follows. Denying this is, to some extent, betraying our own nature. Many men and women who are still naturally driven by it and enjoy fantasies based on this traditional courtship will find your scornful tone offensive.
“appeared to be walking down the path to rape”
Throwing hords of males in this same boat is arbitrary. Even if they appear as a bunch of braggarts to you, the Mr Darcys are still appealing for many women and many men who feel comfortable in this role. Why should they be judged for it? Linking the concept of alpha male to abuser responds to a widespread misconception. The great majority of cases of sexual abuse occur within the private sphere (home, school, sports clubs...) They are rarely reported to the police or appear on the news. They happen when the perpetrators have already developped a dynamics of authority and obedience. That's why the bdsm context becomes such a perfect frame for them. In an out of bdsm, real psychopaths don´t show evidence of their need to control their prospective victims at the beginning.
“If multiple readers tell you your story is non-con, your story is non-con - whether you meant it to be or not. Your story reads as non-con”
The problem with this interpretation is that you took it further on your own terms. You didn´t need much more than the grabbing of an arm to draw your conclusions. You don´t like the type, fair enough, but that doesn´t make him a rapist. I believe readers, in and out of bdsm, know that a man's assertive approach doesn´t bring he's a sadistic psychopath. He is just acting according to the social dynamics that have been going on for centuries. Besides, many people, until not long ago, were convinced of the most unbelievable fallacies, for instance, members of the female gender were said to be unable to comprehend science and slavery was supported by the view that colored people were an inferior race. Did that make it true?
As for my English, the thing is that (you may have guessed) it is not my mother tongue, I learned it as a second language and grew up in a society that provided little exposure to foreign languages in general. Would that appease your unforgiving attitude or am I banned from using it to communicate?

 

[MeekMe]

Thanks for taking the time to post the ws. I admit I hadn´t read it but even if I had, can´t “BDSM related fantasy” comprise story telling? I don´t take it as fiction being banned from here. It would be good to state it in the form of a disclaimer for creators of fictional stories. That would prevent any ambiguity and people “violating the rules”. On the other hand, I don´t think the tittle I put on this thread leads to anything but fiction. So, if you didn´t want to read a story when you enter the BDSM Talk section, you just had to abstain from clicking on it.

I will quote some of Cutie’s comments now cause I need to cover some this person's remarks. Please, don´t take it as a personal attack. I don´t know why you’re questioning that I don’t mind productive contributions. I meant what i said when I wrote that I like to discuss to good purpose. I think interacting in a healthy way can sometimes lead to some level of understanding. Where did you get the idea that I aim to control anything that’s been posted? I liked your first contribution much better. You seem to have picked up the wrong approach in your second by twisting my views. The “it’s just fiction crap” is the whole point, cause it is just fiction indeed.

“your story misrepresents healthy dominant and submissive traits and expressions of power”

My comment was obviously in reference to the discussion held here, not the OP. Mixing reality with fiction is not going to take your argumentation further.

“Just because a story involves lots of primal, alpha, "me man; you woman" stuff, doesn't make it BDSM”

Did I say any of this? I don´t think I’ve been even close. I understand those who are bothered by the fact that when a story portraits BDSM scenes in them it is classified as BDSM but that doesn´t have anything to do with my OP. It was an invitation to participate in the text. I depicted a man’s desire towards a woman. How this managed to displease you so much, i don´t know.
In my opinion, the "me, man, you woman" flirtation process that you disdain is perfectly legitimate. In sexual interaction, bdsm or otherwise, there is usually one that runs the show and one that follows. Denying this is, to some extent, betraying our own nature. Many men and women who are still naturally driven by it and enjoy fantasies based on this traditional courtship will find your scornful tone offensive.
“appeared to be walking down the path to rape”
Throwing hords of males in this same boat is arbitrary. Even if they appear as a bunch of braggarts to you, the Mr Darcys are still appealing for many women and many men who feel comfortable in this role. Why should they be judged for it? Linking the concept of alpha male to abuser responds to a widespread misconception. The great majority of cases of sexual abuse occur within the private sphere (home, school, sports clubs...) They are rarely reported to the police or appear on the news. They happen when the perpetrators have already developped a dynamics of authority and obedience. That's why the bdsm context becomes such a perfect frame for them. In an out of bdsm, real psychopaths don´t show evidence of their need to control their prospective victims at the beginning.
“If multiple readers tell you your story is non-con, your story is non-con - whether you meant it to be or not. Your story reads as non-con”
The problem with this interpretation is that you took it further on your own terms. You didn´t need much more than the grabbing of an arm to draw your conclusions. You don´t like the type, fair enough, but that doesn´t make him a rapist. I believe readers, in and out of bdsm, know that a man's assertive approach doesn´t bring he's a sadistic psychopath. He is just acting according to the social dynamics that have been going on for centuries. Besides, many people, until not long ago, were convinced of the most unbelievable fallacies, for instance, members of the female gender were said to be unable to comprehend science and slavery was supported by the view that colored people were an inferior race. Did that make it true?
As for my English, the thing is that (you may have guessed) it is not my mother tongue, I learned it as a second language and grew up in a society that provided little exposure to foreign languages in general. Would that appease your unforgiving attitude or am I banned from using it to communicate?

I think you're failing to see that the frequent posters here in the BDSM Talk section have given you their opinion and pointed you in the right direction to post this and get more positive feed back.

The fact that not a single person who replied gave you any kind of positive feed back should have been a dead give away.

If you take the time to look around you might find a more welcoming group.

As for your language, no one here would ever know that it wasn't your first language because you never took the time to fill out your profile or post an introduction. On top of that you haven't even used the time you've spent defending your bad story to figure out the board's functions like quoting and the enter key.

If you ever get around to anything beyond this thread and look at the posts in the BDSM Talk section you'll be able to use context clues and see what's appropriate.

After you get out and look at the section, go into the main sections. Explore, look at what the board has to offer. When you've done that, mosey on over to the Sexual Role Playing section. In there, you'll see collective stories as far as the eye can see! It's truly magical, just giant fields of collective stories where writers such as yourself roam free!

(*^_^*)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I believe readers, in and out of bdsm, know that a man's assertive approach doesn´t bring he's a sadistic psychopath.

In this case, yes. He-- and you-- might think he's merely being assertive. I, and many other observers know that his assertiveness has nothing to do with the desires of the woman in question, and thus approaches psychopathic behavior.

He is just acting according to the social dynamics that have been going on for centuries.

That's a common excuse, but still not a very good one.

He, and you, might think this is okay because other men also behave like this, but really it only means that there are a lot of men out there who have never been told that it's not okay to be a psychopath.

And that is a damn shame. Because I have a strong suspicion that MOST men don't actually want to be psychopaths. All they really need is a better model than your everlasting boorish manchild with the fast fist. .

 

[CutieMouse]

Thanks for taking the time to post the ws. I admit I hadn´t read it but even if I had, can´t “BDSM related fantasy” comprise story telling? I don´t take it as fiction being banned from here. It would be good to state it in the form of a disclaimer for creators of fictional stories. That would prevent any ambiguity and people “violating the rules”. On the other hand, I don´t think the tittle I put on this thread leads to anything but fiction. So, if you didn´t want to read a story when you enter the BDSM Talk section, you just had to abstain from clicking on it.

From the Welcome to BDSM Talk thread:

In the Talk forum, our focus is on discussion of BDSM and it's associated sexuality and/or lifestyle choices in real life relationships, but also welcomes discussion of online experiences, and BDSM related fantasy. While online and fantasy are included in discussions on the forum it is asked that people respect that all 3 areas, though sharing a common denominator, are diverse in the experiences of those involved. There are similarities in some areas, but are also wide gaps in others which if remembered can save a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings. For instance, someone who has only ever experienced an online caning can never tell another what it actually feels like in real life. It is not a judgement of better or worse, but a reality which can lead to serious consequences if not fully appreciated and explained when sharing with another what they can expect from a real life caning. The same can be said of discussions about online play and the views of those who have never experienced it. We can all imagine what it is like for the other, but until we ourselves have had a similar experience, we cannot honestly judge and tell another what to expect. It is often that which is not understood which is most feared. In all reality, many have experienced a combination of all three areas, but defining of which one is speaking when asked for feedback is important to prevent misinformation or misunderstanding.

After the use of the word FANTASY, the entire remainder of the paragraph explains the use of the word FANTASY with regards to online relationships vs. real time relationships, explaining there are significant differences, but one is not above the other. At no point in the entire paragraph of discussing examples of online fantasy, does the explanation discuss fictional story telling.

AGAIN -

There are forums dedicated to story development and interactive story-telling (most commonly defined as "role play" - nothing anyone on the BDSM Forums has control over). BDSM Talk is for discussion, which your thread has generated, even if it wasn't your intent.

I will quote some of Cutie’s comments now cause I need to cover some this person's remarks.

To make it easier in the future, the forums have an automatic quote button at the bottom right hand corner of every post. If you want to quote multiple posters, click on the " mark on each post you wish to quote, before clicking on the actual QUOTE bubble.

Please, don´t take it as a personal attack. I don´t know why you’re questioning that I don’t mind productive contributions. I meant what i said when I wrote that I like to discuss to good purpose. I think interacting in a healthy way can sometimes lead to some level of understanding. Where did you get the idea that I aim to control anything that’s been posted?

I don't take anything you've written as a personal attack; however, I am confused by your apparent refusal to accept the feedback you've gotten. When people explain that interactive stories are better received elsewhere, or that your interactive story isn't suitable for this particular forum, it seems as if you are trying to convince the audience (members of BDSM Talk) that you are right and they are wrong.

My specific comment about not having control over the thread was based on your comments. I may have been wrong (and if so I apologize), but the tone *to me* read as if you were willing to "tolerate" non-fictional responses.

I liked your first contribution much better. You seem to have picked up the wrong approach in your second by twisting my views. The “it’s just fiction crap” is the whole point, cause it is just fiction indeed.

You liked my first contribution better, because it fed your ego - I [heavily] edited your writing; you read that as the interactive fictional contribution you requested.

“your story misrepresents healthy dominant and submissive traits and expressions of power”

My comment was obviously in reference to the discussion held here, not the OP. Mixing reality with fiction is not going to take your argumentation further.

That's my point. The people you are arguing with DO THIS IN REAL LIFE. I don't have any interest or patience in "fictional BDSM", because it isn't something I can relate to. Your "slow development of BDSM" hinges on the concept that it's totally ok for a guy to force himself upon a woman, just because he wants to. Like I said - if that's your thing, great. It doesn't mean other people have to see it the same way.

Look. My kinks are 98% intellectual - consensual non-consent, objectification, humiliation, being whored out/ shared, mock rape, and damn near anything that gives a sadistic dacryophilliac what he wants.

In theory, one would think I'd be all over a story where a guy forces himself on a girl. But the pragmatic (thinking) part of me can't read your fictional account without calculating the level of risk [to the bottom / submissive] involved. I *have* to think that way, in order to protect myself. Obviously, I'm not your audience... but you did post in BDSM Talk, so I guess I am. (Again, a good example of why there are better places to post interactive fiction than BDSM Talk.)

“Just because a story involves lots of primal, alpha, "me man; you woman" stuff, doesn't make it BDSM”

Did I say any of this? I don´t think I’ve been even close. I understand those who are bothered by the fact that when a story portraits BDSM scenes in them it is classified as BDSM but that doesn´t have anything to do with my OP. It was an invitation to participate in the text. I depicted a man’s desire towards a woman. How this managed to displease you so much, i don´t know.

You are arguing that your story falls under the BDSM Umbrella, using the man's desire for the woman (and writing portraying it) as proof. Which is why you posted it in BDSM Talk. You've also argued that the beginning of your story is setting up the BDSM meant to follow. Your audience (the members of BDSM Talk, who are active participants in BDSM) disagree with you.

Your scenes as described do not depict BDSM. They depict a Harlequin Romance novel style of non-consent. Perfectly valid (and popular amongst certain audiences), but not BDSM.

In my opinion, the "me, man, you woman" flirtation process that you disdain is perfectly legitimate. In sexual interaction, bdsm or otherwise, there is usually one that runs the show and one that follows. Denying this is, to some extent, betraying our own nature.

I don't know anyone who "flirts" the way you wrote.

Yes, in the vast majority of relationships one person leads, the other follows. That doesn't mean I can't express my opinion that your "flirting" = my "unwanted attention/ potential for assault."

Many men and women who are still naturally driven by it and enjoy fantasies based on this traditional courtship will find your scornful tone offensive.

Anyone who wants to PM me about how offended they are at my "scornful tone" of traditional courtship, is welcome. It might, however, help them to know that I'm in a polyamorous male led D/s relationship, in which The Man™ (or The Men™ depending on the situation) get as much control, say, decision making, and anything else they want. I clean his house, do his laundry, cook dinner a few times a month, respect (and usually follow) his advice, meet his sexual needs as best I can (even when they run counter to my own), and do everything I can to give him the opportunity to run the relationship.

I feel so out of touch and scornful of traditional male-led courtship... I should punish myself or something.

“appeared to be walking down the path to rape”

Throwing hords of males in this same boat is arbitrary. Even if they appear as a bunch of braggarts to you, the Mr Darcys are still appealing for many women and many men who feel comfortable in this role.

Um... I wasn't criticizing the "Mr. Darcy's" of the world. (Trust me, I've had my share of deliciously arrogant men... there's just something irresistible to me about them...) I was commenting that I didn't see the archaic "Mr. Darcy" in your character development.

Why should they be judged for it? Linking the concept of alpha male to abuser responds to a widespread misconception.

I was critiquing character and plot development; not condemning an entire class of men I tend to respond to (whether it's in my best interest, or not).

The great majority of cases of sexual abuse occur within the private sphere (home, school, sports clubs...) They are rarely reported to the police or appear on the news. They happen when the perpetrators have already developped a dynamics of authority and obedience. That's why the bdsm context becomes such a perfect frame for them. In an out of bdsm, real psychopaths don´t show evidence of their need to control their prospective victims at the beginning.

So, wait. Are you claiming that BDSM is the perfect environment for rape?

(genuine question... that last paragraph completely threw me.)

“If multiple readers tell you your story is non-con, your story is non-con - whether you meant it to be or not. Your story reads as non-con”

The problem with this interpretation is that you took it further on your own terms. You didn´t need much more than the grabbing of an arm to draw your conclusions. You don´t like the type, fair enough, but that doesn´t make him a rapist.

The reason I classify your writing as non-con, is because nowhere in the plot did you set up the female character as being comfortable or willing to be manhandled/ grabbed by a perfect stranger. If plot supported her wanting/ liking it? No problem. Since it doesn't, my mind classifies it as non-con (which I view differently than consensual non-consent), not BDSM.

I believe readers, in and out of bdsm, know that a man's assertive approach doesn´t bring he's a sadistic psychopath. He is just acting according to the social dynamics that have been going on for centuries.

I didn't claim the character was a psychopath. I view him as a boorish asshole.

Now that you brought up the "social dynamics that have been going on for centuries..." Yes, it's a centuries old meme. Why did you decide that made it a BDSM story?

Besides, many people, until not long ago, were convinced of the most unbelievable fallacies, for instance, members of the female gender were said to be unable to comprehend science and slavery was supported by the view that colored people were an inferior race. Did that make it true?

You lost me.

As for my English, the thing is that (you may have guessed) it is not my mother tongue, I learned it as a second language and grew up in a society that provided little exposure to foreign languages in general. Would that appease your unforgiving attitude or am I banned from using it to communicate?

I had no idea English wasn't your mother tongue. There are enough illiterate English writers on the forums, and literate non-English writers, that I can't tell anymore. Now that I'm aware, your writing style makes more sense.

ETA -

Curious question, do you have any real time/ real life experience with BDSM? How do you research your characters & the power dynamics you want to portray in your writings?

 

[midwestyankee]

@littlelulu30: Look, the opening of your story COULD lead to a bdsm adventure for the characters but there is nothing in there demanding that it MUST lead to a bdsm adventure. So far all you've shown is a boorish asshole who grabs a young woman's arm and keeps her from leaving a bar. That this opening could lead to bdsm activities does not mean that it must. Thus a good bit of the criticism you've received.

But your refusal to accept that your story opening isn't being read by all in the way that you meant it is puzzling to me. And the whole thing appears to be puzzling to you, as well. So let me put this all in different terms so you might see things as we do.

Imagine a city that you've never visited. The city is famous around the world for having dozens of unique and interesting neighborhoods, each one with its own character and, often, its own cuisine. Think Italian, French, Vietnamese, and Turkish neighborhoods surrounded by neighborhoods filled with jazz musicians, graphic artists, computer programmers, and garbage truck drivers, each one with its very own distinctive name.

Imagine, too, that EVERY available map of this city clearly displays the name of every neighborhood. Thus Italian Hill is bordered on the east by Programmers Alley and on the north by Little Paris. You get the idea.

Now, you're like the tourist who goes to this city for the first time and happens to arrive just before dinner. He wanders into a 150-year old restaurant in the heart of the Italian Hill neighborhood and orders a plate of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese. The waiter politely tells him that they don't serve Kraft Macaroni and Cheese. It's not the quality of food that they serve and, in fact, it's not even an Italian dish. The tourist is now angered and he sputters to the waiter, but it COULD be Italian food because it is made from noodles and cheese, two ingredients that are used in many Italian dishes. The waiter disagrees and asks if there's anything else the gentleman might like to order. No! He wants his box mac and cheese.

The waiter is joined by several other waiters, each one supporting the first in insisting that Kraft Mac and Cheese is not Italian food. Diners at several adjoining tables chime in their agreement with the wait staff and politely suggest that the guy change his order, or at least accept the wisdom of the waiters. He refuses. Finally, the Chef enters the dining room from the kitchen, explains to the tourist that he's heard every word the tourist has said and that said tourist is a buffoon and should either leave or order a real Italian dish off the menu.

The tourist then says, but wait! I'm dyslexic so you really can't hold it against me that I couldn't read the map.

You, my friend, have had your order of box mac and cheese refused and now you want us to forgive you because you can't read a map?