Curious

[Kajira Callista]

I have read this thread more than once trying to figure out why it so rubs me the wrong way. Not the original intent of the thread but what developed after. A poster expressed a strong personal opinion, that according to the forum rules he was entitled to. I read, accepted it as his personal opinion and moved on. Next post from someone who disagreed.... I read, accepted it as their personal opinion and moved on. But as the thread continued I realized that no matter what anyones opinion was, it wasn't accepted and that the words freedom of speech were used over and over again. Now here is my issue- by continuing to claim that opinions that disagree are taking away one person's right to freedom of speech, are you not attempting to take away the other person's right to freedom of speech on these boards? Isn't the purpose of the board discussion? And doesn't discussion include the airing of opposing viewpoints?

 

[Netzach]

My impression is that you're all over the map on this issue, since your earlier posting clearly considered that osg might well be outside. More recently you seem to say, maybe, maybe not, it's up to her/Him.

Why do some M/s relationships fall outside the BDSMasyouknowit?

Because some M/s relationships encompass forms of bondage/discipline/sadism and masochism within a framework of consent or blanket consent, and some do not.

Actually I'm pretty consistant on my take on what osg said, I'm not willing to draw hard "you're in you're out lines" as much as you seem to want me to. I interpret a lot of what she says to mean "I feel peripheral but a little related to a lot of the BDSM stuff here, but as D/s applies I find a connection here and here..."

If there's a clear 'in' area for BDSM, why do you simply say, "It depends what the person thinks about being 'in'." ?

Surely that approach runs counter to the whole intent of your original points, that the community should define itself.


Please show me where I say anyone should do anything. Anyone?

Read it again, the language I use is the tentative language of one throwing out some thoughts for consideration, it's the language of "you know this made me wonder and think." I don't dabble in "should" you have to pay me or sweep me off my feet for that.

---


To N and bb,

If the issue is simply does Bundy belong within the alleged 'bdsm' community, probably the answer is no, if you mean real life actions. So we agree. Bundy-esque fantasies are another matter, I think we agree.

___


Why do Bundy-esque fantasies belong more with BDSM than with "sex?" or "arousing but disturbing thoughts?" Why are "arousing but disturbing thoughts" automatically linked to BDSM?

That was my question. No more no less.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm stuck on this. I mean I'm certainly not going to want to head up the commission on The Definition, but to say "no one can decide what it is" means it has to encompass the whole of human sexual and psychosexual practise.

I guess that's the answer then. BDSM is everything, even vanilla.

Carry on, don't mind me.

Netzach the only thing I am saying is that BDSM is a unique individual experience and that no one in this world should decide for someone else what BDSM is.

Francisco.

 

[RJMasters]

you know I was going to post another post but instead...

I am just going to say to both of you catalina & francisco. Good luck, sorry this discussion went overboard. I don't think it was a fair discussion at all.

No more encores for this cowboy...adios.

 

[Pure]

RJ said, in small part,

And all that talk you [moderators] are spitting out the side of your mouth about fundemental rights of people being able to post freely here is really just a bunch of hooey.

I think this is entirely unfair to the moderators, who've never censored or repressed the inimitable thoughts and vehement feelings of RJ, including in his last posting.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Netzach the only thing I am saying is that BDSM is a unique individual experience and that no one in this world should decide for someone else what BDSM is.

Francisco.

you forgot to add "..or is not"

 

[catalina_francisco]

Why do Bundy-esque fantasies belong more with BDSM than with "sex?" or "arousing but disturbing thoughts?" Why are "arousing but disturbing thoughts" automatically linked to BDSM?

That was my question. No more no less. [/B]

Maybe we should feel proud that people feel that they can post here and ask our feedback and opinion. Maybe it has to do with the fact that we are an open-minded and friendly community.

Maybe it is that we do not judge others based on their sexual preferences, or maybe it is because people see BDSM out there on the edge of what is accepted by society and what is not. Or maybe it is because that specific person identifies with BDSM and wants to discus their specific view on BDSM.

Francisco.
.

 

[catalina_francisco]

you forgot to add "..or is not"

agreed.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe it is that we do not judge others based on their sexual preferences...

I seem to recall this not being the case whenever a married person having an affair posts a question, or when people talk about the hopelessly vanilla boring dull character of various exes.

It's not always "pull up a chair, have a cookie." Life is not always pull up a chair, have a cookie.

I don't really feel compelled to get to know someone who can't get off without thinking of killing baby sheep a little better and that ought to be my prerogative. That stupid acronym, YKIOK is often followed by INMK -- it's not MY kink.

 

[Pure]

Pure said, "To N and bb,

If the issue is simply does Bundy belong within the alleged 'bdsm' community, probably the answer is no, if you mean real life actions. So we agree. Bundy-esque fantasies are another matter, I think we agree."

___


Netzach: Why do Bundy-esque fantasies belong more with BDSM than with "sex?" or "arousing but disturbing thoughts?" Why are "arousing but disturbing thoughts" automatically linked to BDSM?

That was my question. No more no less.

"Automatic" is not the issue. As far as connections/linkages go, well, a BDSM community member posted a being-murdered fantasy and thought it had something to do with being utterly used, and thought that had to do with masochism and/or 'slavery.' Is that enough connection for you? Why or why not?

Well, my question is, do murderous, or being murdered thoughts [fantasies, not plans] belong as suitable postings in a BDSM community forum?

Do raping or being raped thoughts belong as suitable postings in a BDSM community forum.

My answer is 'yes.' Yours may differ, and maybe I've mis-inferred it.

Does the 'extreme fantasy' thread belong in this community forum?

My impression is that you started this whole reflective/discussing thread because you did not think
the topic had any link with BDSMasyouknowit. **



**PS upon re-reading,

you said,


Netz: I would say, that my fantasies are fantasies - a woman's sexual fantasies. They aren't really BDSM. They might be the fuel for things I do, they might not. They might be relevant to a discussion of BDSM, they might not, when I have them I don't really try to categorize them much.

I'm glad osg posted her post, although it's not my personal cup of tea, I've certainly had similar-but-opposite thoughts.
-----

So it appears your position was somewhat ambiguous/ambivalent. I can't quite make it out.

 

[catalina_francisco]

you know I was going to post another post but instead...

I am just going to say to both of you catalina & francisco. Good luck, sorry this discussion went overboard. I don't think it was a fair discussion at all.

No more encores for this cowboy...adios.

RJ I am going to send you a PM and take this off the board. I just want to make sure that everyone knows that we the both of us have no hard feelings and we hope that you also do not have any hard feelings.

Like I said before and want to repeat again, IMHO you are one of the most honourable and valuable members of the board, I am one of your biggest supporter and frequent reader of your postings. I sincerely hope that this does not influence the way you feel about posting on the board or forum.

I want to stress again that if you have been offended personally by our somewhat heavy discussion this was not the intention of the two of us, or anyone else. When emotions run high sometimes words can seem to be harsher then meant.

Francisco & Catalina.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Here is just a what if...and a big one at that.
If i were to post that i enjoyed "perro pissello" should i expect to have everyone here totally understand and accept my preference or should i be prepared for tons of negative feedback?
Once i got the negative feedback should i accept the persons opinion or cry about them taking away my freedom of speech?
In this life we all have made an adult choice to live this life, we already know that there are negative opinions about us and this life. Accepting the fact that the opinions are not going to change and learning to understand that it doesn't really matter and that yes....some things are best left untyped is a big step. Its not impeding ones freedom of speech, it is called tact...knowing that it may be extreme to some, and knowing that you wouldn't want it forced fed to you in the same circumstance So if you post it you should well be aware of what the feedback is going to be, and to be grown enough not to whine about it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I seem to recall this not being the case whenever a married person having an affair posts a question, or when people talk about the hopelessly vanilla boring dull character of various exes.

It's not always "pull up a chair, have a cookie." Life is not always pull up a chair, have a cookie.

I don't really feel compelled to get to know someone who can't get off without thinking of killing baby sheep a little better and that ought to be my prerogative. That stupid acronym, YKIOK is often followed by INMK -- it's not MY kink.

It would be nice if you went back to the first page and saw Catalina attempted to answer your question in a manner that did not judge or exclude.

I said in my very first posting it was in discussions with the sharp minds of the Literotica posters especially you that I learned that there are many ways and many different roads that have the same name.

People change, people grow and opinions get influences by others, that is what healthy respectful discussion does.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

Pure said, "To N and bb,

If the issue is simply does Bundy belong within the alleged 'bdsm' community, probably the answer is no, if you mean real life actions. So we agree. Bundy-esque fantasies are another matter, I think we agree."

___


M Why do Bundy-esque fantasies belong more with BDSM than with "sex?" or "arousing but disturbing thoughts?" Why are "arousing but disturbing thoughts" automatically linked to BDSM?

That was my question. No more no less.

Well, my question is, do murderous, or being murdered thoughts belong as suitable postings in a BDSM community forum?

Do raping or being raped thoughts belong as suitable postings in a BDSM community forum.

My answer is 'yes.' Your may differ, and maybe I've mis-inferred it.

Does the 'extreme fantasy' thread belong in this community forum? My impression is that you started this whole reflective/discussing thread because you did not think
the topic had any link with BDSMasyouknowit?

Your impression is only partly right, then.

The thread and the strong reactions to it made me think. I started thinking about a lot of the things discussed on Topopolis, the things I've thrown out when discussing my OWN psyche, which are not always happy and well adjusted. And I started to view the weird fantasy dream-world stuff a a part of my sexuality. It's not something global, it's just kind of in the mix, just like bisexuality, BDSM and encasement fetish is.

I have an affiliation with the bloody fantasy, rather than a desire to censor or distance myself from it as a person, thinking, masturbating, fixating.

Do thoughts of rape fantasy belong on a sexuality board? Yes. Do thoughts of sexualized murder belong on a sexuality board? Yes.

BDSM is not the only building capable of housing the guest, is it?

Besides that point, when I'm involved in SM, when I'm moving in a Leather world, those things are not suddenly cut loose and given free rein all over. In fact, they aren't usually at the forefront of my mind at all.

It's not less enjoyable to rub one out over, it's not less pleasurable, but as a foundation for *doing* like SD said, it's not feasible so it's kinda boring for me.

In BDSM as *I* know it, it's not that relevant. It's not safe and it's not healthy for *me*

Most of the people I deal with commonly clock in about where I do on the issue -- I don't think that's chauvenism on my part, I think it's statistical.

Fantasies are ok, but some thoughts and emotions are not the best to play on, assess your catharsis really well if you are going to go there. I think that sums up what I tend to find out there.

I did refer to what I was talking about as "BDSM as I define/practise it" I even went loopy with the capitalization there for emphasis, it wasn't some internet Domme moment of ME ME.

 

[Netzach]

It would be nice if you went back to the first page and saw Catalina attempted to answer your question in a manner that did not judge or exclude.

I said in my very first posting it was in discussions with the sharp minds of the Literotica posters especially you that I learned that there are many ways and many different roads that have the same name.

People change, people grow and opinions get influences by others, that is what healthy respectful discussion does.

Francisco.

I did notice that and it made me smile.

I know that you are feeling a bit critiqued as a mod right now, but believe me, I didn't mean that to be read as personal- as you personally being critical.

"the board" can be pretty judgemental on issues of sexuality at times. Not always, but sometimes, and some choices don't get affirmation.

 

[RJMasters]

Clarification

I want to clarify something so as not to leave any doubt.

Francisco mentioned in one of his post that if you do not think a post/thread should be here, you should report it to the moderator and they can decide to delete it or not.


My point regarding this is, if there is a disagreement about something with a moderator who feels you have a closed mind, then it is hardly fair to expect to come back to that moderator about something you feel should be removed from the board, when they have already made their position clear.

I never said Catilina or Francisco ever abused their position as moderators. I just want that stated.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

This thread saddens me. I see a number of people I respect, for various reasons, disagreeing - which in itself would not bother me. I think that adversary debate is an artform and can be extremely eduational. What bothers me is that some of those involved in this "debate" seem not to be interested in any possible validity of the other persons' points of view, as much as in putting their own point of view out as the only possible truth.

One of the things I have always enjoyed about this board has been the sense that I could have adult discussion with others of similar turn of mind, and discuss pretty much anything, even if the other(s) had viewpoints opposing mine. In this thread, I don't see that. I don't see people seeking an understanding (even if not seeking to approve) of other people's viewpoints. I don't see what KC referred to as "read, accept it as their opinion, move on; read, accept it as their opinion, move on."

There comes a point at which a thread no longer has interest for me, either because it has gotten into simple repetition of previously stated ideas or it is simply worn out. For one of the very few times, I have found a thread - this one - which no longer has interest for me because it's not what I'm looking for here: free discourse among adults who show respect for one another's opinions whether they agree with them or not, and discuss rather than attack or denigrate.

To me, this thread is dead. I will not return to it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Clarification

I want to clarify something so as not to leave any doubt.

Francisco mentioned in one of his post that if you do not think a post/thread should be here, you should report it to the moderator and they can decide to delete it or not.


My point regarding this is, if there is a disagreement about something with a moderator who feels you have a closed mind, then it is hardly fair to expect to come back to that moderator about something you feel should be removed from the board, when they have already made their position clear.

I never said Catilina or Francisco ever abused their position as moderators. I just want that stated.

That is fine RJ, but I am a person who can seperate my personal feelings from my position as moderator. That is one of my strengths as a counselor and something I defined as a skill even further.....personal values and feelings have their place, but also need to have boundaries when you are placed in a position of responsibility so you are able to operate outside your personal choice or preferance. I think I have already demonstrated an ability to do that on Lit by the way the board operates without my imposing an influence over what is and is not acceptable and allowed to continue unhindered by my own values and choices.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

This thread saddens me. I see a number of people I respect, for various reasons, disagreeing - which in itself would not bother me. I think that adversary debate is an artform and can be extremely eduational. What bothers me is that some of those involved in this "debate" seem not to be interested in any possible validity of the other persons' points of view, as much as in putting their own point of view out as the only possible truth.

One of the things I have always enjoyed about this board has been the sense that I could have adult discussion with others of similar turn of mind, and discuss pretty much anything, even if the other(s) had viewpoints opposing mine. In this thread, I don't see that. I don't see people seeking an understanding (even if not seeking to approve) of other people's viewpoints. I don't see what KC referred to as "read, accept it as their opinion, move on; read, accept it as their opinion, move on."

There comes a point at which a thread no longer has interest for me, either because it has gotten into simple repetition of previously stated ideas or it is simply worn out. For one of the very few times, I have found a thread - this one - which no longer has interest for me because it's not what I'm looking for here: free discourse among adults who show respect for one another's opinions whether they agree with them or not, and discuss rather than attack or denigrate.

To me, this thread is dead. I will not return to it.

I can identify with some of your sentiments here. That being said though it is a point that contributing to any discussion, sometimes even the most harmless, is taking a risk, putting yourself out there, voicing an opinion others may misinterpret or not agree with, but without contributors to a discussion there is no discussion. I admit sometimes I would prefer to sit on the sidelines and read without risking myself, but if we all do that there will be no discussion for us to all enjoy and grow from as we do.

Then discussion also takes on a life of it's own. As I have said somewhere if one posts and then is made to feel they are not allowed to post anymore on that topic, or respond to another post, once again discussion dies. Discussion does spark new thoughts, responses good and bad, and sometimes follow a path not at first intended but growing from the body of opinions being offered. IMO it is unrealistic to think one or two posts be made per poster and then anything that is raised or introduced after that is not able to be commented on because they have had their turn...please forgive me if I have misinterpreted the meaning behind the thought of reading, accepting and moving on. Emotions are always going to come into play when you discuss varying values, viewpoints, and opinions and sometimes those emotions rule our responses for the moment, but there is an honesty and a sharing of self in that. I think this thread has been one of those and as such despite what some think, hugely successful. My only regret may be that Netzach initially asked where people thought it was coming from that so many diverse topics and subjects were being brought here and most did not address that question directly but got sidetracked.

I know I also would have liked input into the discussion from more posters, but it is a matter of choice and perhaps many didn't post as they just did not feel it relevant to them, of interest, or any number of reasons. As I usually connect with much of what you say SW and respect your experience and opinions, I would be more than happy to read your thoughts on the questions and ideas put forth.

Catalina

 

[bridgeburner]

Why is it that a perfectly fascinating question with many avenues for exploration got trounced and bogged down by yet another episode of "Your free speech is stifling my free speech" and "Who's trying to kick who out of the Lit boards today?"

Honestly, who gives a hairy rat's ass about those same old tired internecine squabbles? There are a vast number of really bright people here. Why not resist the urge to have the same old arguments when presented with an interesting idea?

Why make the lazy choice of debate rather than the new and intriguing one? "hmmm I can debate the actual question asked or I can twist the question around to suit this other idea that I like to harp on and for which I've already got a stockpile of arguments or better yet! I can derail any kind of meaningful discussion at all and get us all focused on knitting little sweaters out of our belly-button lint AGAIN!!!!"

That is soooo disappointing.

-B

 

[Kajira Callista]

who in the world has enough belly button lint to knit a sweater? (sorry, i couldnt help myself )

 

[bridgeburner]

who in the world has enough belly button lint to knit a sweater? (sorry, i couldnt help myself )

KC,

Well, that's kind of the point. ;->

-B

 

[shy slave]

Wow look where N's question has gone over the last few days.

I thought it was a great thread to begin with, gave it several thoughts over last few days, returned to see what others had contiributed and wished I hadn't re-visited.

Netzach i am sorry this thread went all over the place.

Perhaps if the question is resurrected in the new year there will be some interesting discussion instead of nit picking.

Hmmm is nit picking part of BDSM mainstream, edge or vanilla?/

 

[Kajira Callista]

KC,

Well, that's kind of the point. ;->

-B

*giggles* yeah i know.

 

[FungiUg]

Sheep? Check. Cookies? Check. Hairy rats arse? Check. Belly button lint? Check. Okay, I think it's safe to go in now.

Let's face it folks, we're a pretty passionate bunch. This is a good thing. NetZach posed a very thought provoking question, and we like the passionate people we are jumped all over it to explore the various ramifications.

In some cases that led us down various side issues and away from the central discussion. But hey, that happens.

Some of us also took opposing views and defended them vehemently. Yay! That's a good thing too.

Keep in mind that if someone takes the time to disagree with you and discuss why, it's a sign of respect. If they didn't care about what you felt or thought, then they'd just ignore you. Someone challenging your ideas, how you express those ideas... it's all good.

We have had discussions like this before, where tempers flare and people rant and the ire is up. It's all healthy. Take a break for light and fluffies as you need to, and try not to take it personally.

I'm sorry for those who have felt obliged to leave the discussion, but I have to say that I for one am enjoying it!

(Bugger. Forgot the fruit-cake.)