Defining Poetry

[Tzara]

prose is defined by what is left in.

poetry is defined by what is left out.

I would have to disagree with this, TRM. Good prose is as elegant as good poetry. It is perhaps not as concentrated in expression, is all.

SJ has something of the right idea, I think. Prose presents more to the reader. Informational prose (journalism, textbooks) strives to be all information. Fiction requires more reader participation, but the author guides the reader's perception more than is possible in a poem, I think.

Poetry presents image as content. Images affect or impress readers in different ways. It's almost akin to viewing a photograph or painting. Something is shown the reader, who then interprets what he has observed.

Long narrative poems (The Iliad, for example) are more like prose.

I think Liar has talked about a continuum that links more or less pure poetry to more or less pure prose. I think that makes sense.

 

[TheRainMan]

I would have to disagree with this, TRM. Good prose is as elegant as good poetry. It is perhaps not as concentrated in expression, is all.

SJ has something of the right idea, I think. Prose presents more to the reader. Informational prose (journalism, textbooks) strives to be all information. Fiction requires more reader participation, but the author guides the reader's perception more than is possible in a poem, I think.

Poetry presents image as content. Images affect or impress readers in different ways. It's almost akin to viewing a photograph or painting. Something is shown the reader, who then interprets what he has observed.

Long narrative poems (The Iliad, for example) are more like prose.

I think Liar has talked about a continuum that links more or less pure poetry to more or less pure prose. I think that makes sense.

it's too simplistic, i'll give you that. and it uses "define" in the broadest terms.

i was striving for short and sweet.

both can be elegant, of course.

 

[TheRainMan]

and, for me, i don't feel like i have to have a grip on what i feel is a 'proper' definition . . . (there are lots of them that make sense to me).

i think a poet just kind of learns the rules, then breaks them, then makes up new ones and breaks them too. and on and on . . . see what works and what doesn't . . .

it becomes very intuitive, and i firmly believe there is no one way or right way to do it.

 

[wildsweetone]

...
it becomes very intuitive, and i firmly believe there is no one way or right way to do it.

well, that's a relief.

*wiping brow*

 

[Angeline]

Good? It's THE distinction between the prose and the poetry.

Once I make a definition or a distinction, that's it -- it's just my gift. Look at other definitions and you'll see how wordy, how muddy, how useless, and how untrue they are. They hardly teach you anything about the difference between prose and poetry.

After my phrasing you may have a strong feeling about different pieces, to what extent they are prose or poetry. If you feel that about 1/3 is left to the reader, then such a piece is somewhere between prose and poetry. If less than 10% is left to a reader then it is a somewhat boring prose, overstated. If much less than 50% is provided by the author then it is a somewhat poor poem, where you wonder if there is anything. If author says too much, then its no good, boring, but if most everything is said by a reader, and not solidly founded on the poem, then the text is too thin, not substantial.

I am here isolating the prose<-->poetry axis, and I am not touching upon other issues like what should and what should not be said in a piece, etc.

Regards,

Yes, it is THE distinction, I agree. It is also a very simple (not simplistic, simple) way to check the effectiveness of a poem (including--and probably most importantly) one's own poem. If I ask myself what proportion the reader needs to fill in, I get an understanding of how much pure poetry I've written.

So here's my question. If I've required less of the reader and given her more as a writer, is that bad? Maybe it isn't "poetry" per your definition, but can it still be very good reading? For example, I love Robert Browning's "dramatic monologues." They are considered a form of poetry (in academic circles,anyway), but I'm casting that aside in favor of your distinction. My favorite of these is Andre del Sarto. It's prosey. It gives the reader more than it expects the reader to get on his or her own. That's not good poetry by your distinction, but is it bad writing?

It pleases me to read it. Does that make me a weak (in the sense of not being willing to work for meaning) reader?

I am very interested in your response.

Thanks.
S.

 

[Snube11]

Reader - Writer Balance

It's an interesting question, not just for poetry, but for literature in general.

I think the challenge of the writer is to provoke the reader to think in a certain direction.

 

[Loveisregret]

For me... poetry is an elaborate way of saying what goes on in Life, death, and everything in between. Now good poetry... well, this isn't a "What is Good Poetry" thread, lol.

 

[sweetjain]

I know it's a poem when it pulls me out of sync
with the tide, with the moon with my own heartbeat
and invites
or sometimes forces
me to walk its step and to swing on its long dangling vines
and when I can't forget
even when I close my eyes.

 

[Never]

I think Mary Had a Little Lamb is poetry.

If depth is required for something to be a poem, I'm screwed.

 

[sweetjain]

Well Mary had a little lamb.
He had him night and day.
He liked himself some mutton chops
and rolled him in the hay.

Nobody loves that little lamb
like Mary to this day.

 

[Never]

Mary had a little lamb
It's fleece was black as ash
The other lamb's oppressed it
So it got medieval on their ass.

 

[Angeline]

It's an interesting question, not just for poetry, but for literature in general.

I think the challenge of the writer is to provoke the reader to think in a certain direction.

Can you be more specific? I agree, but that's something I understand intellectually and lose touch with totally when I'm in the act of writing a poem. When I'm "in the poem zone," the only thing happening is the words are tumbling out--I'm not conscious of "purpose" then. Do you think about how you can achieve that before you begin to write? Can you move it in that direction when you edit?

 

[Snube11]

The reader's experience incorporated

I work with wood.
I build furniture.
I begin with individual pieces, with chaos, and work towards order.
Much of what I do is intentional. If a toy chest slowly emerges to look like a chair, I am in trouble. And, some kid is going to have a messy room.
Along the way, there are always surprises.
You can’t account for the grain, the density, the fibers, the reaction to all finish.
But I know enough to know how to accommodate. The toy chest will look like a toy chest, and the Tonka trucks will have a home.
You begin the same way: with a word. Each word is juxtaposed to the next with the tools of your imagination. Each phrase is carefully aligned with the skills of a craftsman.
While creating, you too will be surprised. As the words “tumble out” they may not be what you expect. Some lines come easy, other words arrive after struggle. But eventually, they come.
The answer to your question, which I believe you know, is yes. And the reason why its yes, you can lead your reader a certain direction, is because they have told you over time what they have read, and what it means to them. Their experience is then absorbed into the writer’s sub-conscious, for the next time they pick up the pen. Their experience becomes what flows, what gushes forth.
The ooh and ah over the toy chest, which we know, even while the wood is still being transported home from the lumberyard.

 

[eagleyez]

Poetry is so much more than words, to me. It is a way of seeing, of filtering and tasting the moments in both day and night. I know the question at hand regards a more formal answer, but I could not resisit the need to describe a poetic approach that has served me individualy since I was 12 or so.

Unwritten poems are just as important to me as those scrawled out. The shift of her hips, the smile of an old woman, the handshake of a distant friend, the life of birds, the smile of a dog, the sound of my sons sleeping, the flush of a stiff north wind...I could go on endlessly.

When I lie down and draw my last breath, a poem it shall be.

When I lie down next to her and listen to her breathing, a poem it shall be.

The writing is just an exersize with which to capture a narrative or to make a telling of a remembered moment or image.

Those moments stretch together like air, and I am equally moved by the sensual reality as I am the written word-more so actually.

 

[champagne1982]

Poetry is so much more than words, to me. It is a way of seeing, of filtering and tasting the moments in both day and night. I know the question at hand regards a more formal answer, but I could not resisit the need to describe a poetic approach that has served me individualy since I was 12 or so.

Unwritten poems are just as important to me as those scrawled out. The shift of her hips, the smile of an old woman, the handshake of a distant friend, the life of birds, the smile of a dog, the sound of my sons sleeping, the flush of a stiff north wind...I could go on endlessly.

When I lie down and draw my last breath, a poem it shall be.

When I lie down next to her and listen to her breathing, a poem it shall be.

The writing is just an exersize with which to capture a narrative or to make a telling of a remembered moment or image.

Those moments stretch together like air, and I am equally moved by the sensual reality as I am the written word-more so actually.

It seems to me that with each post you write,

a poem it shall be.​

 

[eagleyez]

It seems to me that with each post you write,

a poem it shall be.​

bows and pays respect.

some of the best poets I have met are truckdrivers, mailmen, bricklayers and ditchdiggers.

Sort of my point. Carrie.

BTW, all hopes that you are feeling better day by day.

 

[champagne1982]

bows and pays respect.

some of the best poets I have met are truckdrivers, mailmen, bricklayers and ditchdiggers.

Sort of my point. Carrie.

BTW, all hopes that you are feeling better day by day.

This gladdens me. I think life is a poem waiting to be written, maybe if we all found that bit within our day to day it would be a different history that we're writing. Imagine!

Today, because the sky was so metaphorically blue, all those stranded on the roofs in the Missouri River flood plain were rescued by leisure boaters out for an alliterate poemicall picnic.

I am better thank you. I'll be able to drive my (new-to-me)Cooper S in just around 2 weeks, so the housebound maddness that is me will be smiling foolishly as I speed away from captivity.

Say hi to the multi-job queen of the domain in Maine for me.
respectfully,... Carrie.

 

[eagleyez]

This gladdens me. I think life is a poem waiting to be written, maybe if we all found that bit within our day to day it would be a different history that we're writing. Imagine!

I am better thank you. I'll be able to drive my (new-to-me)Cooper S in just around 2 weeks, so the housebound maddness that is me will be smiling foolishly as I speed away from captivity.

Say hi to the multi-job queen of the domain in Maine for me.
respectfully,... Carrie.

Good News!!

And will do.

 

[ishtat]

Thinking

To my mind the fundamental difference between prose and poetry is that prose has to be written down whilst poetry originated in pre literate societies as the spoken or sung folk memories/mythologies of peoples. It existed only in the minds of the poet and the listener. Poetry still retains the capacity not to be bound by the rules which necessarily govern the modern invention of prose. If there are any rules in poetry the poet can always change them.

I think that at various times we may think mathematically, prosaically, musically or poetically and that utilising these capacities is more satisfying than trying to define pointlessly.