Devotion

[twysted73]

* sighs and digs*


Here....you've all missed this point I made.

It's that cheapened usage of hope that makes me turn an eye from "mainstream journalism" and so I head inwards to what I can change and make better.

I've noticed in most american stories not only does there have to be a happy ending, but there also must be a Villian.
And kids, I Ain't It.
No Evil Doctor Dream-Crusher here.

I said I like the possitive stuff, hate the negative stuff and...if you look closer, I'm actually in accordance and agreement with you.
So in opposition (and slight resentment of) being in reference to a negative ex or some close-minded media sheep, I AGREE with you.

This started because cat went pikkin on me again cause I wasn't immediately blowing rays of sunshine out my patoot in the first two lines.

Love ya darlin'!


Side/side note: Thank you for the well wishes. I have a funny feeling my No-blow-mojo is actually working in my favor by staving off the impending doom of the dooming Winds of Doom.
Ike? C'mon...they only name the wicked ones good names.
~ Katrina...rrrow...shredded the big easy like a kid in a tiger cage.
The only thing done by items labled Ike are win wars and get old.

 

[Netzach]

Romeo and Juliet were like, stupid and fourteen years old.

MacDuff and LadyMacD are what I consider tragic love. If you're going to die with/ for the kids (whatever "the kids" represents) it has meaning. Because someone fucked up the bottles, it's just a waste.

 

[Homburg]

Side/side note: Thank you for the well wishes. I have a funny feeling my No-blow-mojo is actually working in my favor by staving off the impending doom of the dooming Winds of Doom.
Ike? C'mon...they only name the wicked ones good names.
~ Katrina...rrrow...shredded the big easy like a kid in a tiger cage.
The only thing done by items labled Ike are win wars and get old.

Dude, do not forget Ike motherfuckin Turner. And Hurricane Hugo had a silly name, but still blew seven kindsa hell outta Floreeduh.

 

[the captians wench]

* sighs and digs*


Here....you've all missed this point I made.

It's that cheapened usage of hope that makes me turn an eye from "mainstream journalism" and so I head inwards to what I can change and make better.

I've noticed in most american stories not only does there have to be a happy ending, but there also must be a Villian.
And kids, I Ain't It.
No Evil Doctor Dream-Crusher here.

I said I like the possitive stuff, hate the negative stuff and...if you look closer, I'm actually in accordance and agreement with you.
So in opposition (and slight resentment of) being in reference to a negative ex or some close-minded media sheep, I AGREE with you.

This started because cat went pikkin on me again cause I wasn't immediately blowing rays of sunshine out my patoot in the first two lines.

Love ya darlin'!


Side/side note: Thank you for the well wishes. I have a funny feeling my No-blow-mojo is actually working in my favor by staving off the impending doom of the dooming Winds of Doom.
Ike? C'mon...they only name the wicked ones good names.
~ Katrina...rrrow...shredded the big easy like a kid in a tiger cage.
The only thing done by items labled Ike are win wars and get old.

I wasn't really trying to cast you as a villian. Just your statement about life not being fairy tales and happyendings all the time, reminded me of something my ex had said to me that was rather negitive about life in general.

The difference between what you said and what he said is that you imply that happy endings are possibly, but they take work, where as he just flat out told me to "wake the fuck up".

I know who my villian is in my story, or more acurately what, I don't need another.

 

[twysted73]

Dude, do not forget Ike motherfuckin Turner. And Hurricane Hugo had a silly name, but still blew seven kindsa hell outta Floreeduh.

- Damn -

I forgot about Tina's old man.
Yeah but he only beat one person. So as long as this thing only picks one town and hovers I'm good.


We're all good wench.....no worries.

Hasta

 

[the captians wench]

Romeo and Juliet were like, stupid and fourteen years old.

MacDuff and LadyMacD are what I consider tragic love. If you're going to die with/ for the kids (whatever "the kids" represents) it has meaning. Because someone fucked up the bottles, it's just a waste.

I love it when you get all Shakespear.


*mental note on reading material to pack. Any one have Shakespear on ebook and can show me how to download it to my itouch?*

 

[BiBunny]

Romeo and Juliet were like, stupid and fourteen years old.

MacDuff and LadyMacD are what I consider tragic love. If you're going to die with/ for the kids (whatever "the kids" represents) it has meaning. Because someone fucked up the bottles, it's just a waste.

I hated Romeo and Juliet, for what it's worth.

Actually, I hate most of Shakespeare's stuff, Macbeth and Midsummer Night's Dream being two notable exceptions. Dream is kind of what I'm thinking about in regards to this particular thread because, you know, devotion doesn't always have to end badly. (See sig line.) Just call me fucking Hermia.

By the way, some very insightful responses to this thread. I'm headed out for food right this second, but I'll come back and give it the attention it deserves soon.

 

[Homburg]

I love it when you get all Shakespear.


*mental note on reading material to pack. Any one have Shakespear on ebook and can show me how to download it to my itouch?*

Not sure how to download it to an itouch, but go to The Gutenberg Project. You will find all kinds of Shakespeare there. All kinds of stuff period, as it is an incredible site.

 

[cherokee_dove]

Edited

 

[JMohegan]

Actually, I hate most of Shakespeare's stuff, Macbeth and Midsummer Night's Dream being two notable exceptions. Dream is kind of what I'm thinking about in regards to this particular thread because, you know, devotion doesn't always have to end badly. (See sig line.) Just call me fucking Hermia.

*edits options to view signatures*

That's Helena's line.

Not that it matters - unless you identify with her circumstances, in addition to identifying with that specific quote.

1.) Where is the line drawn between devotion and stupidity? It obviously varies amongst people, but some folks are capable of being devoted to the point of what others WOULD consider stupidity or, at least, a lack of common sense. Barring things like "Would you kill someone if your Master/Mistress told you to?", where does it stop being devotion and start being foolishness? And does it really matter if the person is happy more often than not?

-snip -

3.) Is there a point where devotion becomes meaningless? Like, is it possible for someone to be so devoted to you that you finally just say, "Ok, fuck it, I get it. You're devoted. Now go away."

Helena chasing Demetrius - who doesn't love her, doesn't want anything to do with her, and is becoming annoyed and pissed off to the brink of violence by her pursuit - is foolishness. And I fail to see how it could be considered "devotion" in any form, since it's obviously not what Demetrius wants.

Puck's potion doesn't exist in real life. A desperate pursuit is not attractive or arousing, and I have never seen it work.

 

[BiBunny]

*edits options to view signatures*

That's Helena's line.

Duh. I always get the two "H" names messed up. And I even looked it up to make sure I got the right one, and I STILL wrote the wrong one.

Not that it matters - unless you identify with her circumstances, in addition to identifying with that specific quote.

Helena chasing Demetrius - who doesn't love her, doesn't want anything to do with her, and is becoming annoyed and pissed off to the brink of violence by her pursuit - is foolishness. And I fail to see how it could be considered "devotion" in any form, since it's obviously not what Demetrius wants.

Puck's potion doesn't exist in real life. A desperate pursuit is not attractive or arousing, and I have never seen it work.

I don't identify with the situation. But the words themselves, taken out of context, are another story.

 

[LilyBart]

Puck's potion doesn't exist in real life. A desperate pursuit is not attractive or arousing, and I have never seen it work.

Absolutely.

~LB

 

[Netzach]

*edits options to view signatures*

That's Helena's line.

Not that it matters - unless you identify with her circumstances, in addition to identifying with that specific quote.

Helena chasing Demetrius - who doesn't love her, doesn't want anything to do with her, and is becoming annoyed and pissed off to the brink of violence by her pursuit - is foolishness. And I fail to see how it could be considered "devotion" in any form, since it's obviously not what Demetrius wants.

Puck's potion doesn't exist in real life. A desperate pursuit is not attractive or arousing, and I have never seen it work.

Neato analysis:

the whole topsy turvy nature of what the fairies do to the humans is kind of analagous to the overhaul of QE. She's patriarchy - her Dad made her queen. She's monarchy - God made her Queen and she has mystic powers. But to the Elizabethans a lot of shit is up in the air.

I don't see any of the love in MND as enduring love, rather mad, young love. By the time the weddings roll around, Hermia and Lysander are willing to forget that, under the old order with no "fairies" they'd be very very dead.

 

[BiBunny]

Neato analysis:

the whole topsy turvy nature of what the fairies do to the humans is kind of analagous to the overhaul of QE. She's patriarchy - her Dad made her queen. She's monarchy - God made her Queen and she has mystic powers. But to the Elizabethans a lot of shit is up in the air.

I don't see any of the love in MND as enduring love, rather mad, young love. By the time the weddings roll around, Hermia and Lysander are willing to forget that, under the old order with no "fairies" they'd be very very dead.

That is very, very interesting.

Perhaps I misspoke in using Dream as an example. I was just trying to think of SOMETHING where someone's devotion (or whatever) doesn't end badly.

I'm laying off the literary analogies for the time being. I think I'm only serving to muddy the waters at this point.



So let's try another tactic here...Devotion. In BDSM-type relationships. All D-types say they want a certain level of it, even though it obviously varies from person to person. What's good? What's bad? How much is *too* much?

Or is this a pointless discussion?

 

[JMohegan]

I don't identify with the situation. But the words themselves, taken out of context, are another story.

A masochist's creed! Out of context, I see it's appeal.

Neato analysis:

the whole topsy turvy nature of what the fairies do to the humans is kind of analagous to the overhaul of QE. She's patriarchy - her Dad made her queen. She's monarchy - God made her Queen and she has mystic powers. But to the Elizabethans a lot of shit is up in the air.

That's interesting, but impossible for my abstract-challenged brain to comprehend. That is to say, I understand what you're saying, but have no idea how that popped into somebody's head while they were reading the text of the play.

Perhaps I misspoke in using Dream as an example. I was just trying to think of SOMETHING where someone's devotion (or whatever) doesn't end badly.

I'm laying off the literary analogies for the time being. I think I'm only serving to muddy the waters at this point.



So let's try another tactic here...Devotion. In BDSM-type relationships. All D-types say they want a certain level of it, even though it obviously varies from person to person. What's good? What's bad? How much is *too* much?

I would define devotion as: affection + commitment.

The amount of devotion I have sought from a partner has always been equal to the amount of devotion I was willing to give. That level varies, depending on my life circumstances, the woman in question, and the stage of our relationship.

 

[nh23]

Let's talk about devotion for a minute, shall we?

Pretty much all people have some level of it, outside of maybe sociopaths. But some people/things inspire us to greater-than-average levels, be they Dom/mes, subs, switches, 'nilla SOs, children, or even our (non-human) pets.

It's really easy for someone to say, "Oh, I'd follow you to the ends of the earth" or some such. How often do we really mean it, though? How many people really would drop everything to run for the right person?

I have several questions I'd like to see discussed, but I'm not entirely sure how to tie them all together in a coherent way. I'll just take the cop-out way and list them here, and y'all can pick and choose what you'd like to answer. I may be able to articulate better once I see some responses.

1.) Where is the line drawn between devotion and stupidity? It obviously varies amongst people, but some folks are capable of being devoted to the point of what others WOULD consider stupidity or, at least, a lack of common sense. Barring things like "Would you kill someone if your Master/Mistress told you to?", where does it stop being devotion and start being foolishness? And does it really matter if the person is happy more often than not?

LOL. I love that you started this thread. I know you and I and Homburg have had this discussion a million times. There is a very fine line between devotion and stupidity. I tend to be one of those people who is very devoted. And in a few cases to the point of stupidity. I don't really want to hash out all my dirty laundry because I just don't roll like that. Long story short I stayed with my hubby for 12 years even when I knew it was over because it's just not in me to say I'm going to give up. I also stayed with my ex Dom for 2 years when I really probably shouldn't have.

With the ex Dom it was more of a stupid decision I guess. With the hubby I had kids etc..and that was a good reason to try even though I should have given up. With the Dom...well I spent many a night vomiting and crying my eyes out over broken promises etc.. Thing is though he could ignore me for months at a time and during that time I'd be literally sick with worry, stressed to the point that my hair was falling out, but all it took was a phone call from him, to hear his voice once and my life was all rainbows and sunshine again.

Basically in the end my devotion to both of them wasn't appreciated, or it was unwanted. That didn't stop me from being that way though. *shrugs* I still don't really understand it all that well.

2.) What have you sacrificed in the name of devotion and/or love, and was it worth it for you? Would you go back and do it over?

Days, months, years of my life. Opportunities that I do regret not taking. But yeah I'd do it all over again. For all the bad there were moments of total bliss, and that makes it worth it in a way. It also changes you as a person, and if you try really hard you can make those changes positive.

3.) Is there a point where devotion becomes meaningless? Like, is it possible for someone to be so devoted to you that you finally just say, "Ok, fuck it, I get it. You're devoted. Now go away."

*sighs* I think yeah, that some people get like that. My best friend who is totally vanilla btw.. told me years ago that I did too much for my husband. I was in no way submissive to him, but I played the role that I was raised I was supposed to play. And to tell the truth in my opinion it is my place to play. I worked full time just like he did, yet I did all the housework, cooking etc.. I also cut his nails, shaved his face, bathed him. I did everything for him. It's really hard on him now that we're split up..LOL He calls me a few times a week asking me how to do things he's never had to do before. Like laundry, paying a bill etc..

I think for some people it just becomes something that's always been and always should be. They take it for granted. And sometimes they grow wary of it.

I think in the case of the ex Dom it scared him. But that's a whole nother story..lol

I believe real devotion won't ever lead to stupidity or poor decisions. I think when poor decisions are made, they are made from insecurities on both the Dom and sub's side.

I totally disagree. Even if devotion isn't appreciated, or wanted to the person you're giving it to, it is still very real. And can and does lead to stupid decisions etc..believe me..been there, done that.

 

[Hisscarlett]

1.) Where is the line drawn between devotion and stupidity? It obviously varies amongst people, but some folks are capable of being devoted to the point of what others WOULD consider stupidity or, at least, a lack of common sense. Barring things like "Would you kill someone if your Master/Mistress told you to?", where does it stop being devotion and start being foolishness? And does it really matter if the person is happy more often than not?


i think that there is a line between devotion and stupidity - and that is where the initial negotiations between a potential Master and slave are so vital

i know that whatever my Master told me to do i would do - no matter what it was - and i also know that Master would never demand i do anything that would be harmful to me, Him or us - i know that every decision He makes is in the best interests of me, Him and us

there are some who might push the boundaries - thankfully i am not in that situation - i ensured i knew and trusted Master before He took me as His property and that situation is not one i have to consider or be concerned with

you ask about happiness - i am not sure if you refer to the Dom or sub - but in my opinion it is important that each consider the other's happiness and that open communication is maintained in order to ensure that each is in step with the other as time passes and the relationship develops/evolves

communication is vital in every relationship - and even more so in a D/s one where there can be potential for harm - physical, emotional and/or spiritual



2.) What have you sacrificed in the name of devotion and/or love, and was it worth it for you? Would you go back and do it over?


in order to be with my Master i left my country, my family, my friends and my home - i had to give away everything i owned - all my furniture, shoes, clothes, belongings and everything else i had accumulated over the years - barring a small storage box which is still in the country of my birth

i moved to north america and live with my Master on a First Nations Reserve where He works - we could only bring a small bag each of belongings due to it being fly in only and the planes that fly in here are small bush planes so we live a very simple life

i don't look at it as a sacrifice though - i look at it as a gift i gave to my Master and Owner - a gift that He has accepted and repaid over and over by His care and protection of me

it was more than worth it as i am now the happiest i have ever been in my entire life - living with my Master as His slave

if i had to go back i would do it again in a heartbeat


3.) Is there a point where devotion becomes meaningless? Like, is it possible for someone to be so devoted to you that you finally just say, "Ok, fuck it, I get it. You're devoted. Now go away."


i am on the wrong side of the relationship to be able to answer this i feel - however i think that devotion is a gift and it develops as the relationship does and so should never be "too much" as it is something the Dom and sub work on together

 

[Netzach]

A masochist's creed! Out of context, I see it's appeal.

That's interesting, but impossible for my abstract-challenged brain to comprehend. That is to say, I understand what you're saying, but have no idea how that popped into somebody's head while they were reading the text of the play.

Is it that weird? A cursory glance at the year it was signed would kind of make you think about it I think...

 

[Netzach]

That is very, very interesting.

Perhaps I misspoke in using Dream as an example. I was just trying to think of SOMETHING where someone's devotion (or whatever) doesn't end badly.

Oh, oh. Well I kind of hate reading them, but every book ever dismissed as "chick lit" is really about the sufferings of the heroine. Every movie dismissed as "womens' weepies" (think late 30's especially)

Now Voyager kinda things. They usually end "and they get what they want, though maybe not exactly how they wanted it."

 

[Fuckette]

To me devotion is waking up at 3 in the morning to make him something to eat after he's had a 18 hour workday

 

[Netzach]

To me devotion is waking up at 3 in the morning to make him something to eat after he's had a 18 hour workday

Yes.

To me, devotion is learning what subjects to just leave alone, mutually. It's the small annoyances that pile up and make or break you in the mundane, and learning to let those ride. If I can make it 20 years and not actively hate this person, I consider that a success. It's kind of old-fashioned of me.

 

[JMohegan]

Is it that weird? A cursory glance at the year it was signed would kind of make you think about it I think...

No, it's my brain that is weird.

I can understand the literal plot, appreciate the humor, explore the theme of love as developed in the story, talk about the effective use of contrasts, and so on - holding my own when discussing what's actually written on the page.

But. Once the conversation veers away from what the guy actually wrote, into the metaphorical realm of "what he's reeeeaaaally trying to say," I'm lost. My dispassionate response is to acknowledge that I just can't see it unless someone else tells me it's there.

My visceral response is to ask: If he wanted to talk about Queen Elizabeth, why the FUCK didn't he just say so? Yes, I know there both literary and political answers to that question. That wasn't an actual query, just an expression of frustration over what my brain can not do.

Perhaps I misspoke in using Dream as an example. I was just trying to think of SOMETHING where someone's devotion (or whatever) doesn't end badly.

The Odyssey. If you want, I can help you look for Penelope quotes.

 

[midwestyankee]

No, it's my brain that is weird.

I can understand the literal plot, appreciate the humor, explore the theme of love as developed in the story, talk about the effective use of contrasts, and so on - holding my own when discussing what's actually written on the page.

But. Once the conversation veers away from what the guy actually wrote, into the metaphorical realm of "what he's reeeeaaaally trying to say," I'm lost. My dispassionate response is to acknowledge that I just can't see it unless someone else tells me it's there.

My visceral response is to ask: If he wanted to talk about Queen Elizabeth, why the FUCK didn't he just say so? Yes, I know there both literary and political answers to that question. That wasn't an actual query, just an expression of frustration over what my brain can not do.

The Odyssey. If you want, I can help you look for Penelope quotes.

I guess you're not the most likely candidate to start a thread on deconstructive analysis of the post-modern erotic novel, eh? [/hijack]

 

[Netzach]

No, it's my brain that is weird.

I can understand the literal plot, appreciate the humor, explore the theme of love as developed in the story, talk about the effective use of contrasts, and so on - holding my own when discussing what's actually written on the page.

But. Once the conversation veers away from what the guy actually wrote, into the metaphorical realm of "what he's reeeeaaaally trying to say," I'm lost. My dispassionate response is to acknowledge that I just can't see it unless someone else tells me it's there.

My visceral response is to ask: If he wanted to talk about Queen Elizabeth, why the FUCK didn't he just say so? Yes, I know there both literary and political answers to that question. That wasn't an actual query, just an expression of frustration over what my brain can not do.

The Odyssey. If you want, I can help you look for Penelope quotes.

Well it works for her, but what about Calypso?

I mean he spent seven YEARS with the bitch. It's not like she turned anyone into anything. She just "made him" fuck her. Stay around, keep her company. Fat lot of good it did her. She knows its doomed. She savors the days.

THAT is love, to me.

 

[JMohegan]

I guess you're not the most likely candidate to start a thread on deconstructive analysis of the post-modern erotic novel, eh? [/hijack]

Can't say I've read any. Have you?

Well it works for her, but what about Calypso?

I mean he spent seven YEARS with the bitch. It's not like she turned anyone into anything. She just "made him" fuck her. Stay around, keep her company. Fat lot of good it did her. She knows its doomed. She savors the days.

THAT is love, to me.

You're identifying with the woman who imprisoned him against his will and seduced him regardless. Why am I not surprised!