Discussion Thread: Writers' Issues: Tension, Surprise

[rpsuch]

A not so simple answer

I don't recall the sex content being high, but The Prisoner of Glenda by Salamis is full of tension and conflict and is a marvellous story. There are many others but that comes to mind as one of my all-time favorites.

A huge portion of the posts on Lit are not stories. They meet. They fuck. That's not a story. At best, it might be a vignette if done well. If not, who cares what they did? Why they did it and how it affects them is what makes it not only interesting reading, but erotic. I read many of the comments and there is a substantial readership that appreciates a plot, actual characters who have to make difficult choices and live with the consequences of their choices or actions. Often I'll read a story and get to the end and realize there wasn't much sex to speak of. I don't care. If I got through the story without noticing, it was a good story. It drew me in. What more can you ask of a writer?

Surprise is getting more difficult to do. When they advertise the "Law and Order twist," how can they surprise you? You're looking for it. You expect it. It's a twist, but it isn't surprising. Unfortunately, I think viewers and readers often come to expect it so it is difficult to pull off. And the twist can't supply the tension. If it wasn't there before, a few seconds of surprise aren't going to make you tense unless it leads to a cascade of consequences.

Someone above mentioned well-drawn characters. Nothing kills tension quite like someone doing something completely out of character with his personality as we have come to know it. Immediately you think, "The author did this as a plot point but it makes no sense." You're all concerned about him and suddenly he does what?

A final thought on characters. Make your villain multi-dimensional. It's a great provider of tension, even when the story is over. You want him to get what he so richly deserves, but there is something somehow redeeming enough that you almost feel bad when he gets his comeuppance. If you get the reader to feel ambivalent about your resolution, you've left him with tension.

Of course, all of this is my opinion and there are widely varying estimates of its value.

 

[Pure]

nice posting rp

you made some good points.
'surprise' is a tough one, and as you say, is often the opposite of tension-related event, precisely because it's unforseen by the reader.

OTOH, some stories have--to use a different word--freshness. Sometimes it's plot, but there are only so many basic plots. One mistakes the identity of an intruder and finds it's a family member.

Yet surprises can come *within* standard plots, such as 'lead person' in seeking some goal--find the treasure, get laid--encounters obstacles. The nature of the obstacle may be a surprise

Surprise can come from character. Again, it can't be total, but supposing the protagonist likes to bet occasionally, one time he goes overboard, ends up owing a pile, and gets in trouble with the bank. Then s/he maybe does something *somewhat* out of character, like move to a foreign land.

The surprise has to 'fit', however. A normally 'staid' person does something risky. That is not so odd. The extreme would be odd, like the upstanding citizen fellow in Kansas who became the RTK --rape, torture, kill--serial killer. Yet, well told, that fellow's life IS a story, and some events in the past must be relevant to the initial taking up of murder.

This is not explained very well, but we've all had that 'ho hum' feeling with many lit stories. You know where it's going. The 'character' such as it is, goes from being horny to being satisfied, in a relatively straightforward fashion. The pacing is fairly obvious.

Some stories are 'redeemed' by an element of romance, which may affect(be reflected in) character dev't. The protagonist goes from lonely and suspicious, to fulfilled and trusting, after a series of 'tests.' I've used the term 'surprise' to indicate things that happen that the reader can't expect through applying a formula.

In a series of moves toward having sex, the usual points on the journey are somewhat obvious (the extreme case being the sequences in porn movies, where the male gets his b.j. about half way along the way to 'success.')

What makes a story then? In recent fine story I read by SylviaRockon
http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=191585

("A chance meeting with a short skirt"), here at Lit., she has the sex start on schedule, as it were, then be interrupted. That is a simple device which helps create story.

I'm rambling. It's worth thinking about what makes the best stories 'fresh' or, at certain points, surprising.

 

[rpsuch]

good and bad surprise

Authors often try to surprise us without thinking of the implications. An example of bad, illogical surprise, was a recent posting in Loving Wives. I don't recall the name of the story or gender of the author. The guy, in first person, finds out his wife is cheating and his rage grows. He plans revenge and then confronts her. She tells him it is in retaliation for his affair of years ago. Sorry, he knew he had the affair. Wouldn't it enter his thoughts for a second as he is becoming enraged and indignant? We could accept his double standard if he told us why her actions were worse. But the author held it back to surprise us and, in doing so, made almost laughable the behavior of the guy. Surprise has to be authentic and logically fit everything you have told up to that point or the author is cheating the reader as badly as the husband and wife in that story did to each other.

I think there are two relatively easy ways to create surprise, especially for stories on this site. Take a situation to its logically absurd conclusion, especially for situations that have become cliche. The other is to look at a cliche setup and go someplace completely unexpected, where nobody here has gone before. Okay, it's not easy, but look for something not done. Perhaps a mother-son incest where has a fetish because she's his mother, not just an older woman. She's reluctant, knowing of his fetish, but finally gets involved and, at the end, we find out her reluctance was because he's adopted and doesn't know it. Just an example. Maybe it's been done but I haven't seen it.

The best example I can recall about taking things to the logical absurdity is my own

http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=181340

"Clark Kent or Superman?". It's only the best because I can remember my own stuff more easily than someone else's. I tried to combine both methods, logically absurd and a direction nobody else has taken, starting with a cliche.

I was finishing up the final edit on a mystery when I attended a recent writers' conference. I was thinking about it while I was in a Romance section of the conference. The instructor told us to include all the plot points in the synopsis you send to an agent/publisher. I asked the absurd question, "What if you have a surprise ending? Doesn't that kill the suspense?" Of course, you don't have a surprise ending in Romance. The guy and girl get each other. That is one of the benefits of posting here. We don't have that rule. You can maintain tension by having the reader wondering if the guy is going to get the girl. Here, he doesn't have to. You can get them to root either way and you can end it either way. People can do bad things and get away with them. Out in the published world, you have to follow the genre rules until you are sufficiently established that the publisher will accede to your breaking them. We have the freedom of not having to make a living from the things we post.

 

[rpsuch]

oops

Well, I screwed up that link. I assumed I could put in the html, don't know what happened. Sorry.

 

[Pure]

your story's url was corrected.

though romance leavens porn, in my view, it's true, as you say, romance has its own formula, of 'getting together or married' at the end. [aside from character, setting] the only [plot-related] variety is in the heroine's mis-steps (thinking the wrong guy is Him) with others, and misunderstandings with Mr. Right, which have to get sorted out.

so 'formula' romance can be as bad a story [i.e., a non-story] as a porn 'story', just the manner of 'getting together' is different, reflecting the female pre occupation rather than the usual male one. lots of predictability, no 'freshness'.

i agree the formulas can be played with. in the 'adopted mother', incest story, that would be a surprise. HOWEVER, incest stories typically disguise what's of interest precisely by making it an aunt or stepmother. so the difference in your proposal is that the reader doesn't know the situation.

there are, of course, all manner of suprises possible by keeping things from the reader--e.g., parts of the 'dark past' of certain characters. These parts 'surprisingly' come to light when there is some new events:
"Yes, ma'am that man you were chatting with at the bar before your daughter called you home for an emergency was a serial rapist."

Note to rp. Consider looking at some of the stories--esp. the more recent-- posted in this forum and offering your comments. IOW, consider joining the 'main area' of this forum.

 

[Penelope Street]

I think there are two relatively easy ways to create surprise, especially for stories on this site. Take a situation to its logically absurd conclusion, especially for situations that have become cliche. The other is to look at a cliche setup and go someplace completely unexpected, where nobody here has gone before.

Logically absurd? Is that like military intelligence or am I missing something?

Must surprise always involve the absence of suspense? A good mystery involves both suspense and surprise, right?

I like putting a little mystery in the story, providing the reader with some clues that things aren't right, but not showing immediately what is wrong. At least half of my stories involve some manner of twist or turn. Cliche breaking is one of my favorites, although going where nobody has gone is all but impossible.

Also, how often do Literotica's categories serve to spoil a potential surprise? Or does no one else run into this problem?

Take Care,
Penny

 

[rpsuch]

Not clear on where you mean

Note to rp. Consider looking at some of the stories--esp. the more recent-- posted in this forum and offering your comments. IOW, consider joining the 'main area' of this forum.

Do you mean Story Discussion feedback and review of stories? Individual stories like Dr. Lust? I'm guessing not the 1st because I just saw only one post in July. I'm brand spanking new here so I'm not familiar with protocol and etiquette and contents.

 

[Penelope Street]

The official word regarding the SDC may be found here:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=304663

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi rpsuch,

I'm afraid I had company yesterday and didn't have time for a longer explanation regarding this forum and how it works. That said, the thread to which I provided a link above does a good job of describing how the SDC functions.

In a nutshell, we discuss stories or related topics, usually one at a time; this being the latest such example:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=349696

The stories, or portions thereof, to be reviewed are provided by volunteers. One is meant to have participated in a couple of previous discussions before offering a work for such critique. There's been a lull of late, but I suspect it's simply the summer and a lot of us are busy enjoying the season.

So far as etiquette goes, I've been guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me on a few occasions, so I may not be the best example of how to behave. That said, I think simple respect is all that's really necessary- and maybe an awareness that the written word is easier to misinterpret than verbal communications.

When providing a critique, if one but identifies the story's greatest strength and it's greatest weakness, then I should think the reviewer has done the author a service. Anything beyond that is gravy. Hopefully good gravy, kinda lumpy with a dash of salt.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Black Tulip]

I think I'm back, more or less. LOL

I have not read all posts in this thread in extenso, but I skimmed most of them.
For me the characters in a story need to give me something to feel for them, and if it's really good, to identify with one or the other.

The suspense for me is in the learning how they will get to the point of having sex, when talking about Lit stories. LOL You know they will get there, but the surprises are in the road they follow. And since NC and BDSM are my favorite categories I'm interested in how and why one finally gives in to the other.

It's what I try to do in my own stories. I follow a more or less predictable path, but I try to make it interesting by giving little twists and turns that are believable and consistent with the characters I've created. I guess my own goal in writing is exploring human reactions. And painting pictures.

 

[wild175133]

i know this is off the topic but has any one ever lost control of there charactors while writing a story. I mean your writing a conversation between your charactors and they end up saying something totally different than what you planned or your writing and action sequence and they end up doing something totally different i just want to know if this is a common occourance among writers or am i just going a little bonkers

 

[Black Tulip]

Welcome to the nuthouse. If you're bonkers, than so am I.
My stories usually develop into something else. I know where I'm going, but sometimes my characters disagree.

And I know it happens to other writers as well.

 

[Boxlicker101]

i know this is off the topic but has any one ever lost control of there charactors while writing a story. I mean your writing a conversation between your charactors and they end up saying something totally different than what you planned or your writing and action sequence and they end up doing something totally different i just want to know if this is a common occourance among writers or am i just going a little bonkers

In that case, all of us are a little bonkers. Personally, I usually have a good idea where a story is going when I start but sometimes the characters take over and take it where they want. I usually let them have their way. After all, we want to have strong characters.

 

[Alex756]

Sometimes I find it happening in dialog the most. Dialog is always my hardest part, but the part I love the most. Since I'm trying soo hard to keep the words true to the character, sometimes it goes into the wrong area. Right now I am writing something and i swear I had to redo the dinner conversation 15 times until I got them talking to the end I needed.

Right now I'm trying to do a dialog bit where if the dialog goes right the characters will end up in bed (on lit? no... 2 characters having sec?) but it has a greter probability of ending in a fight or something. So I know its going to need to be re-writen a few times. Once I can get them in bed the story will flow, but I'm writing without my normal safety net of the characters loving (or at least liking) each other.

blah! silly characters developing their own ideas

 

[dr_mabeuse]

A while back we were speaking of surprise as if it were the be-all and end-all of the short story. That's not the case. The surprise ending (AKA the "O. Henry ending", because he made a career out of using them) is only one way to go, and to me always seems a little gimmicky. Stories with surprise endings always remind me of jokes with punchlines, and the two have a lot in common.

There are plenty of good stories that get by without surpise, and some that get by without any tension too.

My own favorite kinds of stories are the ones that take things we're familiar with and invest them with new life and meaning. To me, this is what separates literature from mere entertainment, or at least defines great writing--the literature leaves us a little richer in our understanding and appreciation of things, whereas entertainment merely amuses.

That kind of story doesn't have to surprise us or even have that much tension and suspense. I think of a book like "Catcher in the Rye," which has practically no suspense and no surprise, but is eminently readable, just because the story's told by such a great writer. It's got warmth rather than heat.

Anyhow, when I'm writing a story, I'm rarely thinking of a surprise ending. I'm looking for something that gives a sense of wholeness and completeness to the story. Sometimes an unexpected ending will present itself, and sometimes it will be both unexpected and perfect. When that happens, it's great, but it doesn't happen often. I'm the first to admit that I'm not great with plot.

 

[drlust]

Best surprise is no surprise?

Hi all:

I tend to agree with Dr. M on this one, although, despite the title of this post, I don't think surprises should be avoided. I prefer stories that end as one would expect them to. In other words, they reach some sort of logical conclusion. Too often stories veer off course at the last minute, injecting a surprise, often from out of nowhere, that leaves me wondering how the fuck we got here?! If it seems as though the surprise ending was a game by the author to try to hit me with a big finish, it just tends to piss me off.

My characters often end up in a particular place because that's where they ought to end up. I almost never know how a story is going to end when I begin writing it--I've never written a plot outline in my life (and maybe it shows!). Instead, my stories typically start with an idea, or even more often a moment or a feeling, and kind of unroll before me as I write them. I'm sure there's a technical term for this kind of writing, but I don't know what it is. Of course, writing this way also requires a fair amount of editing and proof reading, because sometimes my characters wander around far too much and need straightening out before I can show anyone the story.

I'd be interested to hear how many of us use outlines, or at least know how they want a story to end before they write it.

Allan

 

[Black Tulip]

Reading your post reminded me of my NaNo-effort, drlust.

It's the only time I wrote down some sort of outline, because I was afraid to run out of steam halfway through. LOL

The result is a 50k+ monster on my pc, that's nowhere near the end I had in mind. The story went off in a totally different direction. And is still not finished.

 

[Alex756]

Hi all:


I'd be interested to hear how many of us use outlines, or at least know how they want a story to end before they write it.

Allan

*throws down the outline notebooks*

For anything of any length I outline. I can keep about 10 pages in word figured out in my head if its complex (ie academic outline) or about 20 if its not (ie story) any longer than that and I need it written down. Often not in a 'true' outline, but bubbles connected by lines, but if I sat down and organized my scribbles it would be an outline.

I have 2 longer pieces I'm working on, and they are direct opposites. One is most ly character run, boy meets girl, boy screws girl, boy and girl live happily ever after, obviously not too many notes on that, its just a list of scenes it is going to take to bring the story from where I start it to where I want to finish it. The other is *kicks over a stack of notebooks* a HUGE mess. Sketches, maps, tourist flyers from various places, photocopies of old newspapers, man oh man is that puppy a mess. Luckily its being written in bits and pieces that stand alone, so its actually more easily digested.

If I don't outline, I end up with chaos. I discovered that in 5th grade when I started my first attempt at a novel. Its still 1/4th done, without purpose, but thankfully I don't have a way to translate something on 5 1/4 inch disk in appleworks to anything I can use today

-Alex
My stories

 

[Boxlicker101]

For most of my stories, I have a very sketchy mental outline of what will be happening. First, I have to come up with an idea that will set this particular story apart from similar ones. Usually, the diffrence between one and another will be very minor. I decide what the sexual activity will be and that is the extant of the outline.

My stories tend to be detail driven and that is what I fill in after I know what will be happening. Some on Lit. are critical of what I do, as is their right, but I like it and I am the only one who has to be satisfied. I also get a lot of compliments from readers, as well as some brickbats, but I guess we all get those too.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I like what Steven King said about plot. He said his stories aren't planned or outlined, they're exhumed, like dinosaur bones. That's pretty much how it works for me too.

I'll start out with an idea for a story that's no more than a scene or a situation, and I'll start writing my way towards it. In the dinosaure bone analogy, that's like when you first spot that piece of bone sticking up out of the ground. It's something that grabs your imagination. I start chipping away and developing the characters and story, and more and more of the plot appears. Now I start to see what kind of bone it is and how much is attached. Eventually I get the whole thing out. There might be a surprise at the end, or maybe not.

All I know is, I've abandoned every outline I've ever made for a story or book. I just can't feel things and know how my characters will act until I'm into the actual writing process. My characters are always surprising me.

 

[rpsuch]

tension, surprise and outlines

I'll weigh in on both conceptual threads.

Surprise is not necessary. I looked at my stories and 3 have surprise. It can be looking at something differently than usual, it can be an unexpected turn, it can be an unexpected reason for behavior. It doesn't have to be the O'Henry type. Looking at things differently is especially effective. Someone has written or will write a story reminiscent of one of yours. But it's more difficult if you have taken an unusual approach. All the surprises have to be logical. You can't toss in something from left field. That's not a surprise, it's cheating the reader. A guy can't display growing outrage at some events and you find out he knew all along. It's bad enough in 3rd person, but in first it's dishonest. He would never have those thoughts.

Tension, on the other hand, is essential. Without it, you have a vignette. It's like describing life in heaven. You get up. You have a good day. You go to sleep. Maybe it's good to live, but who wants to read about it. Caring about what happens to the characters, the possibility that some harm may befall a character is what draws the reader into the story. You can't root for a character if you know nothing bad will happen to him. Even in a Romance, where the rule is they wind up together, you create a small doubt that this is the 1 in 10,000 where they don't, and the reader worries that the character won't get what he wants. You can have mild tension wondering why is he doing something or what is he doing, but it isn't as effective as creating a situation where he is in some jeopardy.

Outline, always. It isn't always written, but I know what's going to happen before I write it. That way I'm sure that all the pieces I'm going to put in, fit together. The first thing I wrote was a novel, unrealistically optimistic. I got a good way in before realizing my approach would not work, was inconsistent. I went back and figured out what I wanted to and how I was going to do it and put it in an outline. It almost wrote itself after that. Since then I outline, even short stories. Knowing what I'm going to do means I can't write something that won't fit. Characters can go places I didn't anticipate, but it is usually at the outline level. I think about the story, where I want it to go, what I want it to say and how. How is the outline.

 

[dirtyjoe69]

Outlining is Great...but

I have a novel that is available, for that I did outline after I had the basic idea in my head. It sets a path to take. My second novel I am working on also has an outline. However for short stories I do not believe an outline is required. If you can't keep a couple of thousand words of thought in your head and get them down on paper, maybe you shouldn't be writing. Change it up? Certainly! Fix and edit? An absolute, but to have an outline for a short story is a waste of time in my opinion.

I guess that is why I like Steven King's short stories better. Not my favorite writer at all. Is he good, of course I just think he goes on with discription way too far sometimes. It is like he is just trying to put in filler.

Now as far as suspense and surprise go......I LOVE IT. But then again my favorite genre is detective thrillers.

 

[CharleyH]

in the dr is yet another of his writerly virtues.

But he does raise the BIG question for porn/erotica. Given: The secretary is going to fuck the boss; the girl is going to 'have' daddy, and the two strangers on the subways are going to do it right there-- how in hell can a 'story'--narrative with tension-- be created?

You will excuse me for not commenting on Docs work, as I would have to read the whole story before I ever determined the suspense and I admire Doc grealy, so would never comment until I read the whole.

However, I do disagree (or agree ) a bit, Pure, and because I think sex is a tension and conflict in itself. For the reader or the writer do you find stories on Lit lacking the element you speak of?

Sexual tension and suspense is a tease of what Freud called fort/da - you give and take away, and give and take away until you either give fully (as Doc describes) or strip the character/reader of (predominantly his) satisfaction.

In either case you have sexual tension - the reader responds literally or figuratively by getting off, or retaliates by getting angry.

 

[Matadore]

... give and take away until you either give fully (as Doc describes) or strip the character/reader of (predominantly his) satisfaction.

...

Garn Charley,
where did you hide the camera? You described my sex life perfectly!

 

[CharleyH]

Garn Charley,
where did you hide the camera? You described my sex life perfectly!

I think I learned that one on my own - or maybe beacause of your camera in my room. Anything to add, Matadore?