Disrespectful, unethical, immoral! I am amazed at this crap.

[rexfelis]

It's good that you've recognised this pattern in your sub and that there are long standing reasons for her insecurity (in this case family histrionics) that are in no way your fault. On the other hand though, how do you plan to combat this self-destructive behaviour of hers? Shouldn't she also be learning that it's needless and potentially damaging to your trust because, as you have said, she exaggerated things and was effectively dishonest to you.

You say she's learning the hard way but is she really, if you've been through this with her numerous times already?

She's learning exactly that - it's needless and definitely damaging to my trust. And she's learning it the hard way because she's responding to fears that are unfounded with a "programmed action" that doesn't work, as it did with her family.

The way to get her past this is not simple. It's taking me a lot longer because we don't live together at the moment... but it's do-able, and I'm doing it. The first stage of my plan is disabling the guilt/shame/fear triggers she has. Then I'll start working on other things.

Sometimes, with severely damaged individuals, these outbursts are "safe" ways to display fears they don't feel they can talk about otherwise. She's spent her whole life being manipulated and lied to and used, and here I come along and am absolutely honest and trustworthy and open with her. It takes time to deal with consciously, and more time to re-write the subconscious programming.

She's not perfect, but she is special enough that I am willing to spend the time and effort (and suffering) that it takes to help her overcome her past abuse. You don't throw away a fist sized diamond just because it has a crack. Instead, work it into a polished gem. I can't make everything go away, but I can guide her and show her the love and patience it takes to get her on the road to recovering from her abuse. She's made huge strides. It just takes time.

That said, my understanding does not extend to being taken advantage of, and she is learning that by realizing that all she's doing with these outbursts is threatening the relationship, and that relationship is the only thing she's got right now. Just as it was pain that made her learn to do these things, it is pain that will make her un-learn. Not pain by my hand, but pain at seeing that all she's doing is hurting the person who is offering her everything she ever wanted.

I'm very tired as I write this, and it's a complex subject, so I hope I haven't left out something important, or said something in a way that gets it misconstrued.

 

[rexfelis]

Why should they respect the fact that this girl is "taken"? She is her own human being and gets to make her own choices. If she doesn't respect her dom enough to refrain from entertaining other men, why should they respect him enough to draw that line for her?



At least you're learning.

If by "guilty", you mean that the men are looking for sex, then yes, we are all fucking guilty. You know that guy who asked how you can tell if cantaloupes are ripe in the grocery store?

He doesn't give a fuck about cantaloupes, he wants to fuck you.

You know that nice older guy at the bar who bought you a drink?

He's not a goddamned philanthropist, he wants to fuck you.

How about all those doms you meet on lit, alt, collarme or wherever the fuck else you make yourself available?

Guess what? They want to fuck you!

Are there any men you interact with that don't want to fuck you?

Depending on how attractive you are, possibly not. You can usually exclude members of your nuclear family, but often enough, even they want to fuck you.

So what do you do? You have two options.

Either you shut yourself away from all interactions with males other than your husband like they do in many cultures, or you learn to be more assertive.

A sophisticated and assertive woman can thwart off sexual advances all day without breaking a sweat (or coming off bitchy, for that matter). Keep wasting your time worrying about being nice to all these assholes and they'll forever be buzzing around you like flies on shit.

That isn't what you want.... is it?

I'm not surprised that you can empathize with the girl in question, because you give me the impression that you're of the same basic type. Got to be nice. Can't stand the idea of anyone not liking you. I'm sorry, but this is the stuff that targets are made of.

I knew a girl in college who took this mindset to a pathological extreme. She had very low self esteem, and couldn't stand to upset or disappoint anyone. Guys would pressure her into having sex by any means they felt necessary.

"You can't leave me like this, I have blue balls!"

"But I thought you liked me...."

"Baby, please, I haven't gotten any in a realy long time."

She would usually relent because she didn't want them to be mad. Every once in a while when she'd have the courage to say no, they usually fucked her anyway because by that point they figured out she'd just internalize all her anger and blame herself. She was the perfect victim and there's only so long you can play a certain role without getting good at it.

So let me give you my two cents.

If I was your dom, I would be ashamed that you were having conversations with men who were insulting me. I would hope never to run into these men, not because I'd be angry at them, but because I'd be so embarassed about your behavior.

You don't have to justify your relationship to anyone. Why is what these men think important enough to get into a conversation about? Because you don't want them to worry? Since they're so nice?

Give me a fucking break.

Marquis handles this situation in one of two ways:

The beat down or the freeze out.

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. Everyone is human. Sometimes your girl has a semi-legitimate reason for attracting attention like this. Maybe she was dealing with a particularly artful player, or maybe you really haven't been giving her enough attention and she's only thinking with her emotions.

A good punishment will remind her that this behavior is unacceptable and also give her some of the attention she needs. The bad part about the beat down is that she can use this to control you if you're not careful. Some girls would rather be beaten to death than ignored.

Which is exactly why, sometimes, you've got to ignore them. The freeze out can be deadly effective when used right. The freeze out doesn't just say "I don't like it when you do that," it says "I don't like you when you do that." Unfortunately the freeze out can create a feedback loop where they will keep doing more and more inappropriate things to get your attention.

Hence the inherent problem. You can do what you can to manage this problem, but an insecure person who needs lots of attention is always going to have a motive to be manipulative.



Ha ha, can't argue with you there.

Very well spoken all around.

 

[Marquis]

The way to get her past this is not simple. It's taking me a lot longer because we don't live together at the moment... but it's do-able, and I'm doing it. The first stage of my plan is disabling the guilt/shame/fear triggers she has. Then I'll start working on other things.

Hey rexfelis, I know you're probably really sick of hearing from me by now, but I was in a situation so close to this one that I think it would be a crime for me not to offer my insight.

I'm a young guy, but I've been dealing with submissives for close to 7 years now. Maybe in another 7 years, I will disagree with what I'm about to say, but currently, this is what I believe.

It is far more effective to train women as you would a child or a dog than it is to get into complex shit where you are basically playing psychologist. Just reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. This can be challenging enough as it is without trying to undertake a task you're just not qualified to do. Even if you're a psychologist, you're too close to deal with this situation (but if you were a psychologist, you'd know that).

I think you realize that this girl has a complex problem that needs to be dealt with. Unfortunately, all you can do is encourage her to deal with it on her own. Like I said before, you can beat her down and you can freeze her out, but only she can adjust her mental frame. She may be ready to deal with this one day. She may not. Qualified psychologists can help, but the decision to change has to come from her.

 

[FurryFury]

Domination and submission isn't always about fairness, which is a very subjective thing, in my opinion - although the way I do this is very fair. You become a candidate for 4-6 months, and if you don't like it, you're free to walk any time. After that, you can be my sub, and you're still free to walk if you don't like it. This is always a voluntary thing. I'm poly, but they don't have to be, although I only deal romantically with Mine. If they want to be Mine, fine. If it's not right for them, they're free to move on. What's not fair about that? I'm up front and honest about my rules, and I can't see how it's not fair. My way isn't for everyone. That can be said for anything else, as well.

Well that's fine for you and whomever wants to be there with you. I personally wouldn't go there. Either we are poly all around or not but I'd want it to be fair to me as well as to him.

<snip>
If by "guilty", you mean that the men are looking for sex, then yes, we are all fucking guilty. You know that guy who asked how you can tell if cantaloupes are ripe in the grocery store?

He doesn't give a fuck about cantaloupes, he wants to fuck you.

You know that nice older guy at the bar who bought you a drink?

He's not a goddamned philanthropist, he wants to fuck you.

How about all those doms you meet on lit, alt, collarme or wherever the fuck else you make yourself available?

Guess what? They want to fuck you!

Are there any men you interact with that don't want to fuck you?

Depending on how attractive you are, possibly not. You can usually exclude members of your nuclear family, but often enough, even they want to fuck you.

So what do you do? You have two options.

Either you shut yourself away from all interactions with males other than your husband like they do in many cultures, or you learn to be more assertive.

A sophisticated and assertive woman can thwart off sexual advances all day without breaking a sweat (or coming off bitchy, for that matter). Keep wasting your time worrying about being nice to all these assholes and they'll forever be buzzing around you like flies on shit.

<snip>

I have found that to be very true.

<snip>Ha ha, can't argue with you there.

No, I can see why you wouldn't.

Fury

 

[rexfelis]

Hey rexfelis, I know you're probably really sick of hearing from me by now, but I was in a situation so close to this one that I think it would be a crime for me not to offer my insight.

I'm a young guy, but I've been dealing with submissives for close to 7 years now. Maybe in another 7 years, I will disagree with what I'm about to say, but currently, this is what I believe.

It is far more effective to train women as you would a child or a dog than it is to get into complex shit where you are basically playing psychologist. Just reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. This can be challenging enough as it is without trying to undertake a task you're just not qualified to do. Even if you're a psychologist, you're too close to deal with this situation (but if you were a psychologist, you'd know that).

I think you realize that this girl has a complex problem that needs to be dealt with. Unfortunately, all you can do is encourage her to deal with it on her own. Like I said before, you can beat her down and you can freeze her out, but only she can adjust her mental frame. She may be ready to deal with this one day. She may not. Qualified psychologists can help, but the decision to change has to come from her.

Actually, I rather enjoy your point of view and I respect you for much of what you have to say. I also disagree with some things.

I would certainly rather not be having to deal with these deep, complex issues, but if the relationship is to survive, she must heal and I do not see women this special growing on trees. It is difficult to explain why she is so valuable to me, but she is.

I understand that I am close, but too close, I disagree with. I am also not "making" her do anything. I am interacting with her in ways that will get her to respond with healing instead of further harm. Instead of putting her down, I do things that she responds to in ways that raise her self esteem. Instead of betraying her, I display trustworthiness. Instead of lying, I am honest; instead of hiding things, I show her that I keep no secrets. In time, even the most timid of deer will eat out of the hand.

If I cannot get her to a place where she can trust *someone*, why would she ever trust a therapist?

There is a time for the way you do things, and I use that with her as well, but there is also a time for understanding that rather than tossing aside this amazing woman, I can make a difference by being there for her in the right ways.

I'm not going to be walked on, but it's worth a shot at least.

 

[rexfelis]

Well that's fine for you and whomever wants to be there with you. I personally wouldn't go there. Either we are poly all around or not but I'd want it to be fair to me as well as to him.


Fury

Poly all around is fine, as long as all those I am intimate with, are only intimate with eachother and myself. I want to know that the entire group is protected from diseases. And it's nice to be able to keep things stable, as well, as far as that goes...

 

[Marquis]

Actually, I rather enjoy your point of view and I respect you for much of what you have to say. I also disagree with some things.

I would certainly rather not be having to deal with these deep, complex issues, but if the relationship is to survive, she must heal and I do not see women this special growing on trees. It is difficult to explain why she is so valuable to me, but she is.

I understand that I am close, but too close, I disagree with. I am also not "making" her do anything. I am interacting with her in ways that will get her to respond with healing instead of further harm. Instead of putting her down, I do things that she responds to in ways that raise her self esteem. Instead of betraying her, I display trustworthiness. Instead of lying, I am honest; instead of hiding things, I show her that I keep no secrets. In time, even the most timid of deer will eat out of the hand.

If I cannot get her to a place where she can trust *someone*, why would she ever trust a therapist?

There is a time for the way you do things, and I use that with her as well, but there is also a time for understanding that rather than tossing aside this amazing woman, I can make a difference by being there for her in the right ways.

I'm not going to be walked on, but it's worth a shot at least.

This girl doesn't happen to have red hair, does she?

For starters, I have some idea of why she means so much to you.

The sad truth is, those people that offer us the most stability are often a little boring. People with drama and theatrics make us feel passionate emotions that make us feel more alive (how self righteous and empowered did you feel when starting this thread?). Even though we may not trust or even know these women that well, these powerful emotions we feel can convince us that this is an amazing love and must be protected at all costs. Women like that are unfortunately designed to make you feel this way. It is a survival mechanism they've come to develop, usually after a tough life, abandonment issues, etc.

Unfortunately, it leads nowhere good.

If my experience alone isn't enough to convince you, check out Robert Greene's book "The 48 Laws of Power". He has an entire chapter dedicated to these kinds of people.

His rather machiavellian answer is to avoid these kinds of people completely. That's a tough pill to swallow though for a lot of reasons. For one thing, there are people with varying degrees of this problem and degrees of manageability. For another, I feel somewhat close to people like this at times, because truthfully, I am one of them.

It's a tempting and seducitve belief that our love is enough to solve these kinds of problems, but it simply isn't true. These sort of patterns get set very early on in a persons life, and they have likely been reinforced for a long time. It seems logical enough that, presented with better options, a person would change, but humans don't work that way.

Bums who win the lottery are broke in a week. Many criminals count every day until they can get out, only to violate probation the day that they do. The scorpion stings the fox ferrying him across the river, even though they will both drown.

Love her for who she is, and encourage her to take steps towards helping herself. It's the only thing you really can do.

 

[FurryFury]

Poly all around is fine, as long as all those I am intimate with, are only intimate with eachother and myself. I want to know that the entire group is protected from diseases. And it's nice to be able to keep things stable, as well, as far as that goes...

I totally get that. *nods a lot*

I'm not sure I could do the more than one partner thing but whoo boy, I sure would LIKE to! I'm just terribly private and shy in some ways. If he had the option, I'd want to option even if I never used it though.

Fury

 

[shy slave]

I expect my woman to repel such advances up to her capabilities. If she has made it clear she is not interested, and the guy is making himself impossible to ignore, yes I will get involved.

I've been out with girls lots of times that will come up to me running asking me to "save them" from some clueless smiling dude trying to chat them up. They'll turn towards him and say in a chipper tone, "oh really?!! that's so funny!" then turn to me and whisper "save me" threw clenched teeth.

Sorry, I don't clean up other people's messes. If he throws a drink in your face, I'll punch him. If you don't know how to appropriately express appropriate anger or annoyance, start learning.

I agree with this statement.

It is up to the pyl to say 'back off' politely or otherwise.

It can be flattering to be hit on by a man, but Marquis is right, most men will say anything to get a fuck; cyber or RL.

If someone hits on me I tell them I am not available, it is not usually an issue.
I am not rude or horrible, just state it like it is.

I tell Andante about it but I don't expect him to sort it out, I have always been under the impression that prior to meeting him I was able to say 'no' and mean it, in that respect nothing has changed.

The words submissive/slave/bottom/female do not = doormat

 

[rexfelis]

This girl doesn't happen to have red hair, does she?

For starters, I have some idea of why she means so much to you.

The sad truth is, those people that offer us the most stability are often a little boring. People with drama and theatrics make us feel passionate emotions that make us feel more alive (how self righteous and empowered did you feel when starting this thread?). Even though we may not trust or even know these women that well, these powerful emotions we feel can convince us that this is an amazing love and must be protected at all costs. Women like that are unfortunately designed to make you feel this way. It is a survival mechanism they've come to develop, usually after a tough life, abandonment issues, etc.

Unfortunately, it leads nowhere good.

If my experience alone isn't enough to convince you, check out Robert Greene's book "The 48 Laws of Power". He has an entire chapter dedicated to these kinds of people.

His rather machiavellian answer is to avoid these kinds of people completely. That's a tough pill to swallow though for a lot of reasons. For one thing, there are people with varying degrees of this problem and degrees of manageability. For another, I feel somewhat close to people like this at times, because truthfully, I am one of them.

It's a tempting and seducitve belief that our love is enough to solve these kinds of problems, but it simply isn't true. These sort of patterns get set very early on in a persons life, and they have likely been reinforced for a long time. It seems logical enough that, presented with better options, a person would change, but humans don't work that way.

Bums who win the lottery are broke in a week. Many criminals count every day until they can get out, only to violate probation the day that they do. The scorpion stings the fox ferrying him across the river, even though they will both drown.

Love her for who she is, and encourage her to take steps towards helping herself. It's the only thing you really can do.

Not love alone, but specific action in specific sequence borne of love. I will act as the impetus, and she will either choose to change or she will not. If not, I will move on.

The bum is a bum ultimately because he chooses to be. He chooses to continue believing, and thus doing, the things that lead to that experience. If the bum becomes tired of being a bum, then the beliefs begin to shift and the actions that those new beliefs generate reflect the new internal reality, and they generate a new external reality.

In the last year, I have become an entirely new person because of this fact. Your beliefs generate your point of view, and your actions, and thus your reality. Bums can (and have) become multi-millionaires by changing their beliefs. Likewise, little lost subbies can change their beliefs ("Everyone wants to hurt me") and thus their reality.

And hey, if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll figure it out soon enough.

 

[rexfelis]

I totally get that. *nods a lot*

I'm not sure I could do the more than one partner thing but whoo boy, I sure would LIKE to! I'm just terribly private and shy in some ways. If he had the option, I'd want to option even if I never used it though.

Fury

It's nice to be able to know that Mine can enjoy themselves when I am not there, and still know they will be safe (and me, too!).

Mine are much like you - extremely private and shy. That is why candidates are tentative for so long with me. They must be accepted by the group, not just me.

 

[Marquis]

Not love alone, but specific action in specific sequence borne of love. I will act as the impetus, and she will either choose to change or she will not. If not, I will move on.

The bum is a bum ultimately because he chooses to be. He chooses to continue believing, and thus doing, the things that lead to that experience. If the bum becomes tired of being a bum, then the beliefs begin to shift and the actions that those new beliefs generate reflect the new internal reality, and they generate a new external reality.

In the last year, I have become an entirely new person because of this fact. Your beliefs generate your point of view, and your actions, and thus your reality. Bums can (and have) become multi-millionaires by changing their beliefs. Likewise, little lost subbies can change their beliefs ("Everyone wants to hurt me") and thus their reality.

And hey, if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll figure it out soon enough.

I, for one, hope you're right.

I do believe change is possible and I'd be elated if you have better luck than I did.

 

[FurryFury]

Not love alone, but specific action in specific sequence borne of love. I will act as the impetus, and she will either choose to change or she will not. If not, I will move on.

The bum is a bum ultimately because he chooses to be. He chooses to continue believing, and thus doing, the things that lead to that experience. If the bum becomes tired of being a bum, then the beliefs begin to shift and the actions that those new beliefs generate reflect the new internal reality, and they generate a new external reality.

In the last year, I have become an entirely new person because of this fact. Your beliefs generate your point of view, and your actions, and thus your reality. Bums can (and have) become multi-millionaires by changing their beliefs. Likewise, little lost subbies can change their beliefs ("Everyone wants to hurt me") and thus their reality.

And hey, if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll figure it out soon enough.

I'm liking you better with every post. I hope things work out with you and the lady in question, very well.

Lord knows I've changed over the years, although of course, I'm still my sweet semi-innocent self.

*smiles*

If a certain someone had given up on me, I have no idea what might have become of me.

*sighs*

Fury

 

[rexfelis]

I'm liking you better with every post. I hope things work out with you and the lady in question, very well.

Lord knows I've changed over the years, although of course, I'm still my sweet semi-innocent self.

*smiles*

If a certain someone had given up on me, I have no idea what might have become of me.

*sighs*

Fury

I appreciate your sentiment, Fury. I am confident in my wisdom and skill to achieve my goals, and I am learning as I go along. The amount of progress we have made since I met her tells me this is entirely possible.

 

[rexfelis]

I, for one, hope you're right.

I do believe change is possible and I'd be elated if you have better luck than I did.

Who dares, wins.

 

[infernal_contessa]

"dominants" who resort to that sort of treatment, those sorts of tricks.. are not Dominants at all.

 

[FurryFury]

"dominants" who resort to that sort of treatment, those sorts of tricks.. are not Dominants at all.

Perhaps you could be more specific, what kind of treatment and tricks are you referring to?

Fury

 

[infernal_contessa]

Perhaps you could be more specific, what kind of treatment and tricks are you referring to?

Fury

The treatment and tricks the the thread starter is ranting about.

 

[FurryFury]

The treatment and tricks the the thread starter is ranting about.

Thank you for your clarification.

There has been so much talked about on this thread, I was quite lost.

*smiles*

Fury

 

[Marquis]

The treatment and tricks the the thread starter is ranting about.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[JMohegan]

These "dominants" have consistently used every low and disgusting trick they could - lies, ignoring what was said, bribery, attempts to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt, and even bordering on slander of My character.

"dominants" who resort to that sort of treatment, those sorts of tricks.. are not Dominants at all.

D/s, in real life, isn't fairyland.

And Dominants are human beings.

Some lie, some bribe, etc. They are good, bad, and everything in between.

 

[Marquis]

Oh, nevermind, I misunderstood.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Reading through this thread has been a bit frustrating and I originally wasn't going to comment, but just feel compelled to get something out here.

Rex, I know the kind of behavior you're talking about, having a profile on alt myself. From your original post, it sounded to me like they had approached her, she told them NO, and they continued to harrass her. That is the assumption I'm operating off of as I post this.

Marquis, you're correct that it's not your place to police someone else's relationship. I agree fully with everything you said - except in the case of her saying NO. If she has told you no, and you persist, then you're just a big asshole. No always means no. Even if you think this girl doesn't really mean no, you should still behave as if she does, because the bottom line is that she said no. If you persist and she later cries assault or rape, then you're toast.

My experience on alt has been that these asshole trolls do not understand that no means no. They send emails whether you reply to them or not. I reply once with an email that nicely says I'm not interested. When they reply that I should read their profile again, I just delete their email. When they email me again, I put them on ignore. I've even had some figure out that my yahoo is the same as my alt and start trying to IM me. Again, I just hit the ignore button. Eventually, they do disappear because they can't engage you.

And I have to say that I like Betticus' position that these so-called doms belong to him. If I'm in a relationship and someone approaches me and I tell them no and they persist and even sometimes become aggressive, then I would hope that my Dom would step in to protect me, his sub.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[JMohegan]

My experience on alt has been that these asshole trolls do not understand that no means no. They send emails whether you reply to them or not. I reply once with an email that nicely says I'm not interested. When they reply that I should read their profile again, I just delete their email. When they email me again, I put them on ignore. I've even had some figure out that my yahoo is the same as my alt and start trying to IM me. Again, I just hit the ignore button. Eventually, they do disappear because they can't engage you.

And I have to say that I like Betticus' position that these so-called doms belong to him. If I'm in a relationship and someone approaches me and I tell them no and they persist and even sometimes become aggressive, then I would hope that my Dom would step in to protect me, his sub.

On the Internet, Betticus is no more powerful than you are. Ignore and delete sounds like the most effective way to deal with unwelcome attention, and you can do this just as well as he can.

In real life, I have stepped between aggressive men and angry or threatened women many times. I have done this not only for my own partners, but for partners of my friends or even complete strangers. But I only do this if the woman is visibly angry, agitated, or frightened.

If I don't know the woman well, my first question will be to her. "Mind if I interrupt?" Her answer will tell me whether she'd appreciate help with the situation, or not.

 

[BeachGurl2]

On the Internet, Betticus is no more powerful than you are. Ignore and delete sounds like the most effective way to deal with unwelcome attention, and you can do this just as well as he can.

Good point. I wasn't very clear when I said that, was I? I meant in person. As I explained, I pretty much take care of the online trolls myself.


I realized after rereading my post that I also wasn't real clear on my viewpoint about women saying no. I do know that for some really stupid women, no really means maybe. And I shouldn't call them stupid. Most of them are just young and inexperienced. The frustrating part for women is that some men tend to regard all NOs as a maybe. Which is why we continue to get PMs and emails from the trolls we've said no to. And then they get angry because we've put them on ignore.

I even had one lit stalker create 3 different alts before he finally gave up. Each time I'd put him on ignore, he'd create another alt and start posting after me and PMing me. That's pretty much when I stopped posting very often on threads in the playground that had been fun for me. It just wasn't worth it. I'm sure by now he's moved on to someone else, but his behavior probably hasn't changed.

So, the point of that little rant is that for the woman in question, it's not fun, and it can become frightening. Especially when it's taken to extremes. When it's done in person, it is always frightening, at least for me because I'm not large enough or strong enough to do much damage to someone if they wanted to do real harm. I've been in those situations, so I am talking about it from first hand experience. Assume that no means no. If she really means maybe, then she'll change her answer to get your attention.