Do you stear your own boat?

[A Desert Rose]

I think rose would do quite fine with a Captain. She picks Admirals and just doesn't want to be one of many in the fleet.

Yes, I don't share and that's been the biggest problem.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: maybe I'm really missing the point here..

First, let me say that I do not consider you in any way to be a "pain". I find this forum to be the best of many that I have seen dealing with BDSM, D/s, etc., given its large number of members, high level of activity, and intelligent discourse among those interested in this lifestyle.

That said, allow me to answer your question

if you don't talk to the submissive ahead of time, how the heck do you figure out what her needs and limits are?

At the risk of sounding conceited, smug, and somewhat taken with myself and my technique (pick one or all of the above), I would say that sometimes I just know .

A woman in a vanilla relationship once told me "Sometimes 'No' means 'Yes' ".

My ex-wife always knew when I was lying.

I have an associate in business with an uncanny ability to size up people's personalities immediately upon meeting them, and subsequent events prove him almost always to be correct.

OK. If you read some of my other posts in this thread and others, you know that I consider a D/s relationship to be much like any other: a two way street in which the needs of both parties must be met for it to be successful.

But there are many ways to determine the needs, desires, wants, and limits of the submissive besdies instinct and intuition, or "Domming by Braille" as you put it...

-- I will always talk to my submissive while using her in a manner in which she has not been previously used ("you like it when I hurt you, don't you?"), and am usually able to determine when her "No" means "Yes".

-- I give my submissive writing assignments ("A Day At The Beach", "A Shopping Trip", "A Night At A Club") in which she consciously or sub-consciously describes events which delineate her desires and limits.

-- Sometimes I just use plain old common sense. I would never permanently mark a submissive without some type of prior understanding. And as someone else said in another thread, if I know her best friend was electrocuted, I'm not going to surprise her with a TENS unit and say "Today we will try a little 'electricity play' ".

-- I permit my submissive to speak freely, but only after the fact, about what they may have enjoyed or not enjoyed about a particular activity.

I consider submission to be a gift, and Dominance a responsibility, and I always want my submissive to trust me and feel safe with me.

Like most Doms, I always desire to expand the limits of my submissive. That's the challenge, and that's where the power and the turn-on lie for me. Besides, repitition can become quite boring.

But I always respect limits while trying to expand them, especially in a relationship in which I care about the submissive and wish the relationship to continue.

But, and it's a BIG BUT, I find the idea of negotiating limits in advance to be a complete turn-off, and completely contrary to the basis of a D/s relationship and the establishing of the bond that I wish to establish.

Great post! Thank you. I'm sure I'll come back to this again.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... Yeah, it's gratifying to inform your sub "this is not a fucking democracy" but it should be a functional fascism, it *has* to take into account the needs and characteristics of the subjugated to sustain itself or create any positive outcome at all.

One of the things I find most interesting in all these posts, especially by the Doms and Dommes is the different 'styles' you all have in molding your relationships.

And although you are all a bit different in your approaches, you all seem to have successful relationships.

The message is: What you do, works... and seems to work well for you.

It's also real enlightening for me as a submissive. I hope it is for others as well.

 

[A Desert Rose]

ADR, I think the secret for sucess in your relationship involves having enough sailors!

Actually, I do like Sir_Winston's nautical metaphor, but I couldn't resist.

Thank you for your suggestion, dolly. And like WD, you know me, so you are a bit biased. LOL

But I don't want this thread to be about me. ;-D That would not only be self-serving but damned boring. LOL

 

[A Desert Rose]

I like to give non D/s examples and relate them to D/s, so here goes.

Earlier this summer when my GF was in town, she wanted to go to the beach. She wanted to go very badly. I dislike the beach. She wanted to go to the outer banks. I wanted to go someplace a bit closer (actually just more direct highways to get there) in Willmington.

The outer banks are more famous, and her being japanese she wanted to go there because she had heard of them. (kitty hawk and such)

It would have taken about an extra 2 hours to drive there and I knew she just wanted a decent beach. Wilmington would be just as good as the OB. We went to wilmington and she had a blast.

So the way I relate this to D/s is as follows.

She had a "need" in going to the beach. She loves the ocean, the sun and I think she also enjoys walking around in a bikini more than she'll admit. I'd rather have gone to the mountains, but that was just a want of mine. We went to the beach.

Now, I fullfilled her "need" to go to the beach, but did not grant her "want" of going to the beach at the Outer Banks. She's a history buff, she had a want to see kitty hawk. I did not grant that. Instead we went to the USS North Carolina battleship. So I granted her want of seeing something historical, but not the exact historical site she had planned. Some day I'm sure we'll see Kitty Hawk, but in my time, not hers.

This was pretty wordy, but hope it gets my point accross.

Thank you for posting here. I read all your posts and have enjoyed them. I think sometimes you miss my sense of humor, though. :-D

I hope she comes to see you again real soon! Good luck.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

Well, thanks for the compliment, but I'm not sure how much help I've been. I don't exactly "negotiate" in the strictest sense of the term myself. I have the potential write an essay on (so far only ) his kinks, fetishes and limits. I read it and then tell him what I can accomodate and what I can't; there might be a little negotiation after that, but not much.

Some things I plan out in advance, but for the most part I run on instinct and spontaneity, and try to make sure we both have fun. So far, it's worked pretty well, but I've played with only a few people. I'll probably run into someone with whom that approach won't work well eventually.

And there are of course, some subs like we've heard about here, those who seem to get off on the dom/me not accomodating them or acting like they don't care what the sub wants. Haven't encountered those personally myself. I'm not sure how I'd deal with that.

 

[A Desert Rose]

But you interview, don't you, Pagen?

I have only been "interviewed" once and didn't realize it until after the fact... LOL what does that say about me? (I can tell you that I didn't fail the interview, but he did. hahaha)

Because I have no real experience with this process, I find it to be quite interesting to read about.

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: maybe I'm really missing the point here..

I'm a very intuitive person, I am constantly reading between people's lines. It's true, sometimes you can just tell. Often I just know. And I am very taken with myself, my canny technique and my general brilliance that's on target all the time. Ok, 90 something percent of the time.

'Cause sometimes when you think you're sailing along you are horribly splendidly WRONG.

That's why I like to talk about the gorilla in the living room that is "are you better or worse off for obeying me?" which is what I think the fulfillment of the bottom/slave boils down to. I like to use English, I don't even like the shorthand of a safeword that tells me something's wrong but not WHAT.

At the risk of sounding conceited, smug, and somewhat taken with myself and my technique (pick one or all of the above), I would say that sometimes I just know .

A woman in a vanilla relationship once told me "Sometimes 'No' means 'Yes' ".

And men in non-vanilla relationships have often taught me that "yes" really can mean "no."


I have an associate in business with an uncanny ability to size up people's personalities immediately upon meeting them, and subsequent events prove him almost always to be correct.

The older of my msubs is like that. It drives me just about fucking crazy, who said the bottom gets to be right all the time? Trying to outfox him necessitates sticking a pony bit in his mouth which immediately shaves off about 60 IQ points. Heh.


-- I will always talk to my submissive while using her in a manner in which she has not been previously used ("you like it when I hurt you, don't you?"), and am usually able to determine when her "No" means "Yes".

Have you ever felt deflated when someone's really honestly telling you your brilliant plan is NOT really working for them, a no that means no? Or, do you just not care about the input, it's the activity that matters, or...are you proud they endure it? I find the wind goes out of my sails when there's a flatness to the reaction, a miss of the mark. I need someone to really hate it but do it for me, or love it. And I've encountered people feeling blah towards my most cherished activities. I'd rather know that likelihood before I throw myself into it.


-- I permit my submissive to speak freely, but only after the fact, about what they may have enjoyed or not enjoyed about a particular activity.

I see this level of formality as more appropriate for how I would treat a slave. The inability to speak or opine except at certain times seems very tied into the idea of being "property" and "owned".

I consider submission to be a gift, and Dominance a responsibility, and I always want my submissive to trust me and feel safe with me.

I see the whole of the thing as a collaborative effort. I'm trying to make music/magic/art whatever hokey word applies, and my time effort and sweat is as much a gift to M as his patience, trust, and sweat is to me. We don't get to play the same part in the endeavor, but each is definitely critical and dependent on the other.


Like most Doms, I always desire to expand the limits of my submissive. That's the challenge, and that's where the power and the turn-on lie for me. Besides, repitition can become quite boring.

I think a lot of people see repetition as stagnation. I'm into a lot of things, but one of my strongest fascinations is with bondage... I'm all about patience, forms, subtle variations, tradition, repetition...(is there a more repetitive process in sm than tying or wrapping someone? Maybe flogging or caning, my other favorites) You can't really *push* or *force* in bondage...a body will only do what it does. The whole limit-pushing aspect is not the chief reason I do what I do. I think I spent too many years trying to expand the limits of my vanilla lover unsucessfully through patience and light experimentation and whatnot. Now I just look for reasonable compatibility in terms of limits and likes.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

But you interview, don't you, Pagen?

I have only been "interviewed" once and didn't realize it until after the fact... LOL what does that say about me? (I can tell you that I didn't fail the interview, but he did. hahaha)

Because I have no real experience with this process, I find it to be quite interesting to read about.

I would always consider the first meeting an interview really, a "getting to know each other" before the play begins. But I definitely keep such interviews casual so as to at least try to lessen the tension.

I'd say beware of anyone who wants to just jump in and play right then. That might work out great occasionally, but I wouldn't think it would often.

 

[FungiUg]

I'm with Netzach on the "collaborative effort." Good stuff!

ADR, of course we all have differing styles, because we are all different. It's not enough to find a Dominant, any Dominant will do. You have to find someone who matches what you want.

That means it's not only okay to "want", but it's vital! Without it, you won't be able to get what the Dominant in turn wants -- remembering that Dominants like to "mentor", to help a submissive "grow", and to feel that they are helping a submissive to be fulfilled. With a submissive who has no idea of what she wants, none of that is possible.

Of course, with a slave, all of that changes (which is one reason I'm not so fond of AA's "pyl" -- sometimes subs and slaves are vastly different.) But a submissive has a relationship in which she is (to be frank, if you'll be myrtl) an equal. And that means she has to provide at least SOME input into where the relationship is going.

I think I'd be more okay with an aircraft metaphor, where the dominant is the captain. The passengers know where they want to go, but it's the captain who makes the decisions on how to get there.

 

[shy slave]

Yes, exactly. I don't want to set the agenda. I want it set for me. But I would like to know that how I feel about things, is taken into consideration. I've never had a Dom who cared about that.

and I stalk you back, dolly-domme. ;-D

Tried to respond before but the computer didn't want to play

To me there are many similarities between D/s and vanilla lifestyle, Learn Humility also comments on this.

Many of the subs on the boards come across as feisty and can stand up for themselves if need be (Ebonyfire, Sunfox, ADR & KJ). The difference is they have made a choice to be in a relationship where they do not have to ‘fight’ for their needs to be met.

Equally many of us admit to being shy in r/l or in certain circumstances and this can be difficult if we are trying to put across what we want or need from a relationship.

It doesn’t matter about the dynamics of the D/s situation ~24/7, play etc or whether it is Dom/Domme /male/female sub. What matters is they have mutual ideas to some extent.

Esclava has put out a thread about finding the right Dom for her. The person she had in mind is a sadist but Esclava does not have this an interest, ultimately the question is how happy would she be even in the short-term in that relationship?

If two people in D/s have diverse interests and the PYL will does not allow the pyl some of their needs or wants, then where is the ‘pay-off’ for the pyl?

That may sound harsh, its not meant to, but every relationship is give and take. The PYL cannot always take and the pyl give. It can lead to dissatisfaction and resentment, which is not the aim of the lifestyle.

Some subs on here (myself included) realised that the vanilla life did not meet our needs so re-looked at what we wanted. In doing so it may have meant playing outside the home, the break up of a relationship or trying to have vanilla with a sprinkle of choc chip (Phoenix Stone expression). None of these situations are easy, yet we were strong enough to take control of our future and make the decision that was right for us.

If we have that will power then that has to be considered as perhaps one of the hardest of all decisions to make and live with.

If the D/s lifestyle does not give what we want then once again need to look at what we DO want.
I realised that the first relationship I had was not enough for me, it was on-line and I needed real contact. It was a terrible time breaking away. I then had a brief time of play (2 sessions in total) before realising that I did not want to ‘play.’

When we manage to tell a PYL what we need from the relationship (for me) there is a terrible fear of rejection or that my needs will be ignored.

The PYL may have the final say in when/where/how often but arguments along the lines of “I am the (PYL) you are the sub, that’s my final word on the subject.” Remind me of playground games or the parent who has to resort to “Because I said so” due to the lack of any other argument. They may be a Master/Mistress but are they GOD! Real explanation of why that need cannot be met is the least a sub should expect for serving at all other times.

Acknowledgement of need/want/desire of a sub, but on the PYL’s agenda seems the most reasonable way to progress a D/s relationship.

Perhaps the PYL needs reminding that the sub has had to have courage to admit they want this lifestyle and if that particular PYL cannot understand and respect needs and wants then it has been a pointless exercise for the sub to face their personal truth and subsequent soul searching. After all a vanilla lifestyle can provide what we don’t want and it can be a lot less hassle.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm with Netzach on the "collaborative effort." Good stuff!

ADR, of course we all have differing styles, because we are all different. It's not enough to find a Dominant, any Dominant will do. You have to find someone who matches what you want.

That means it's not only okay to "want", but it's vital! Without it, you won't be able to get what the Dominant in turn wants -- remembering that Dominants like to "mentor", to help a submissive "grow", and to feel that they are helping a submissive to be fulfilled. With a submissive who has no idea of what she wants, none of that is possible.

Of course, with a slave, all of that changes (which is one reason I'm not so fond of AA's "pyl" -- sometimes subs and slaves are vastly different.) But a submissive has a relationship in which she is (to be frank, if you'll be myrtl) an equal. And that means she has to provide at least SOME input into where the relationship is going.

I think I'd be more okay with an aircraft metaphor, where the dominant is the captain. The passengers know where they want to go, but it's the captain who makes the decisions on how to get there.

You used the word "passengers"--- plural. I'm not one of many, doll face. I refuse to be that.

 

[FungiUg]

So? You're in a two seater cessna. Or do you want a whole jumbo to yourself?

Edited to add that the multiple passenger problem is also a problem with the ship metaphor

 

[A Desert Rose]

...Many of the subs on the boards come across as feisty and can stand up for themselves if need be (Ebonyfire, Sunfox, ADR & KJ). The difference is they have made a choice to be in a relationship where they do not have to ‘fight’ for their needs to be met.
not allow the pyl some of their needs or wants, then where is the ‘pay-off’ for the pyl?...

Not to minimize your thoughts... because you make some valid points but...

Eb is a domme

and I note you called me fiesty? me? Fiesty? AAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAH

You are so on the mark there, dolly. ;-D

 

[MissTaken]

Yes, exactly. I don't want to set the agenda. I want it set for me. But I would like to know that how I feel about things, is taken into consideration. I've never had a Dom who cared about that.

and I stalk you back, dolly-domme. ;-D

This post really took my breath away.

*hugs*

Now, it seems to me, that in Dominance, I have a responsibility to meet teh needs and at times, desires of my submissive. In order for him to be the best submissive to me he can be, his needs have to be met....much like any other kind of pet. While there are windows of time, wherein, I will verbalize and yes, behave without regard for his wants, the bulk of my time is spent meeting his needs as well as my own. And of course, that his greatest needs have to do with him serving me, it works.

An abused or neglected dog is a nasty pet to have, but a loved and cherished dog is one that never ends up at teh shelter!



In terms of decision making, I am finding more and more, that I have the final say in many things. That doesn't mean that "the final say" or the best decision is what I want, but that it is for me to decide which is best. As I type this, I realize that much of our D/s actually requires that I be objective and responsible, more so than in a vanilla relationship. Does that make sense?

And BTW, ADR, fundamentally, what you want in any relationship does count. It has to, or it will never work.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Edited to add that the multiple passenger problem is also a problem with the ship metaphor

LOL at FU. Fun-guy, why do you think I very carefully avoided passengers with my cargo ship metaphor? I originally was thinking in terms of an ocean liner, e.g., QEII or something, then realized the passengers could mutiny the metaphor right into the South Seas...

 

[A Desert Rose]

LOL at FU. Fun-guy, why do you think I very carefully avoided passengers with my cargo ship metaphor? I originally was thinking in terms of an ocean liner, e.g., QEII or something, then realized the passengers could mutiny the metaphor right into the South Seas...

You fellas don't get it...

NO PASSENGERS... just me.... me.... me. LOL

 

[Sir_Winston54]

You fellas don't get it...

NO PASSENGERS... just me.... me.... me. LOL

Wellllllll, then... are you metaphorically considering yourself cargo?

Actually, within my original metaphor, you would be the shipowner, and I, as Captain, would be doing all the sailing tasks necessary to meet your wants and needs (as well as my own).

 

[A Desert Rose]

Wellllllll, then... are you metaphorically considering yourself cargo?

Actually, within my original metaphor, you would be the shipowner, and I, as Captain, would be doing all the sailing tasks necessary to meet your wants and needs (as well as my own).

okay... there ya go. You were speaking my language in the first place.

 

[Learn Humility]

Re: Re: Re: maybe I'm really missing the point here..

Have you ever felt deflated when someone's really honestly telling you your brilliant plan is NOT really working for them, a no that means no? Or, do you just not care about the input, it's the activity that matters, or...are you proud they endure it? I find the wind goes out of my sails when there's a flatness to the reaction, a miss of the mark. I need someone to really hate it but do it for me, or love it. And I've encountered people feeling blah towards my most cherished activities. I'd rather know that likelihood before I throw myself into it.

When I sense (or am told) that my "brilliant plan is not really working" and the submissive absolutely despises the activity in question, I try to make a graceful "Dom-appropriate" exit from the situation, the verbal part of the "exit" being the key. Or, as I have said before, I'll continue the activity but pull back a notch or two to an acceptable level.

I'd like to think of a recent example, but I've been so successful lately that I am unable to.

The only time this would apply, BTW, is in cases of the application of physical pain beyond the threshhold of the submissive, as I do not consider myself to be a sadist and derive no particular pleasure from inflicting pain upon one who does not enjoy it.

In cases of "mental activity" that my submissive doesn't like she will just have to learn to deal with it and endure it. If she loves it, then so do I. If she hates it, I love it even more. And when she does deal with it and accept it, then yes, I am quite proud of her.

My particular fascination is with the public humiliation of a submissive, and when she hates it, I mean really hates it -- when she's totally humiliated and embarrassed, when her cheeks are bright red and actually hot to the touch, I find that to be a tremendous turn-on for me. If she enjoys her public humiliation too much, then I wonder if she's really being humiliated at all.

And I would agree with you that in general, the worst response is no response at all.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Re: Re: maybe I'm really missing the point here..

... My particular fascination is with the public humiliation of a submissive, and when she hates it, I mean really hates it -- when she's totally humiliated and embarrassed, when her cheeks are bright red and actually hot to the touch, I find that to be a tremendous turn-on for me. If she enjoys her public humiliation too much, then I wonder if she's really being humiliated at all...

Once, as punishment, He made me webcam in a yahoo chat room. I don't ever want to do that again.

But as much has it was humiliating to me and He knew it, it was a major turn on for Him. He loved it and it made Him real hard.

Like His Mercedes, He loves to show off his property.

 

[Learn Humility]

The obvious questions are

1) What exactly did he make you do on camera?

2) If it was a major turn on for him, then it should have been a major turn on for you as well. So why wouldn't you ever want to do it again?

3) Did you at least reap the rewards of his being "real hard"?

 

[A Desert Rose]

The obvious questions are

1) What exactly did he make you do on camera?

2) If it was a major turn on for him, then it should have been a major turn on for you as well. So why wouldn't you ever want to do it again?

3) Did you at least reap the rewards of his being "real hard"?

He made me masturbate with the butt plug and dildo and my fingers, on my hands and knees.

Well, I'm an exhibitionist by nature and the idea of performing for men has always been a turn on for me. He knew that and showing me off was always a major turn on for Him, too. But first and foremost, I'm a lady. And as much as I love being a slut, I like to do it for a very select group... of maybe one or 2? LOL. And the idea that someone might see my face, really scared me. He liked it sooo much, I was always afraid He'd make me do it again. Okay, so part of me was afraid. ;-D

And yes... I reaped the rewards.

Edited to add: Yes, before anyone says it, I do contradict myself a lot. ;-)

 

[Kajira Callista]

He made me masturbate with the butt plug and dildo and my fingers, on my hands and knees.

Well, I'm an exhibitionist by nature and the idea of performing for men has always been a turn on for me. He knew that and showing me off was always a major turn on for Him, too. But first and foremost, I'm a lady. And as much as I love being a slut, I like to do it for a very select group... of maybe one or 2? LOL. And the idea that someone might see my face, really scared me. He liked it sooo much, I was always afraid He'd make me do it again. Okay, so part of me was afraid. ;-D

And yes... I reaped the rewards.

Edited to add: Yes, before anyone says it, I do contradict myself a lot. ;-)

its not contradiction, he just had the ability to bend you.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

Re: Re: Re: Re: maybe I'm really missing the point here..

In cases of "mental activity" that my submissive doesn't like she will just have to learn to deal with it and endure it. If she loves it, then so do I. If she hates it, I love it even more. And when she does deal with it and accept it, then yes, I am quite proud of her.

See, this is why you need to talk first. When I was subbing, humiliation, especially public, was a no-no with me. Nada, no way, out there. But many dom/mes seem to consider humiliation as a standard okay with all subs.