Emotional Aspect of Sexual Pleasure and Orgasms

[Kumquatqueen]

For women to orgasm they must be in a comfortable environment.

If you're trying to get your partner to orgasm, yes. That doesn't mean orgasms never happen otherwise.

If that [rape] only affects 2% of the population. It's too many...
1 rape is to many...

Agreed.

Women do not orgasm from rape... End of story...
Yes, that is my opinion only. Do I have facts to substantiate it...
About as many as the other side of this argument....
The above is my understanding from talking to a lot of victims... Yes, I volunteer at a bettered women's shelter.
Women who have suffered rape... Actual real rape, and I can promise you.
There were no orgasms...
There were broken bones and cuts, abrasions, missing teeth, eyes dislodged, stab wounds....
All real...
Rape... gentlemen is not sexy...

I beg to differ. There's a lot of rape that doesn't involve injurious violence. Threats, coercion, simple force. Obviously you'd see one subset of rape victims at a shelter, who've experienced rape as part of violence. Unfortunately there's a lot more women and men without physical scars, maybe crying at home, trying to convince themselves it wasn't so bad, having lots of showers to try to feel clean, maybe going out and seeking more sex to help replace the memories.

How dare you say anyone who doesn't get injured wasn't really raped! Thought we mostly moved on from the idea that 'date rape isn't real rape' in the 80s.

And yes, sometimes both men and women can be raped and the physical sensations are enough to trigger orgasm however much they're hating the experience. Maybe they've been drugged, maybe it's just friction.

Whatever the cause, it happens, I know at least a couple of each sex it's happened to, it adds to the pile of emotions the rape victim has to deal with, and I really hope no others were awake at 4am to read your opinion that they are making it all up!

 

[Cagivagurl]

If you're trying to get your partner to orgasm, yes. That doesn't mean orgasms never happen otherwise.

Agreed.

I beg to differ. There's a lot of rape that doesn't involve injurious violence. Threats, coercion, simple force. Obviously you'd see one subset of rape victims at a shelter, who've experienced rape as part of violence. Unfortunately there's a lot more women and men without physical scars, maybe crying at home, trying to convince themselves it wasn't so bad, having lots of showers to try to feel clean, maybe going out and seeking more sex to help replace the memories.

How dare you say anyone who doesn't get injured wasn't really raped! Thought we mostly moved on from the idea that 'date rape isn't real rape' in the 80s.

And yes, sometimes both men and women can be raped and the physical sensations are enough to trigger orgasm however much they're hating the experience. Maybe they've been drugged, maybe it's just friction.

Whatever the cause, it happens, I know at least a couple of each sex it's happened to, it adds to the pile of emotions the rape victim has to deal with, and I really hope no others were awake at 4am to read your opinion that they are making it all up!

I never said women who didn't get injured weren't raped...
I don't know where you got that from? Read again what I wrote...
I quoted my experience in working as a victim support person for women who have been sexually assaulted. Raped and beaten.
There are many more who suffered no beatings. Only the humiliating mental scars off having their personal lives destroyed by another person...
There is evidence floating around that says fewer than 37% of rapes are reported. That may be just the internet talking. I think we will never know because the embarrassment, shame, guit and fear of reprisal is so great that most go unreported.
There is also evidence to support the claims that a very high percentage of rapes are perpetrated by family members or close associates.
I stand by my opinion. No woman orgasms from rape....
That is a stereotypical argument propagated by men to normalise their behaviour... If you say it often enough. It becomes truth...
It's a lie...
No means no. Anyone who oversteps that boundary is a sexual offender....

Cagivagurl

 

[Kumquatqueen]

You claimed no women (or anyone, but happy to ignore men for a minute) ever orgasm from rape. Which would mean if a woman's relevant nerves and muscles spasm and she has an orgasm, by your logic, it wasn't rape. I'm asking you to reconsider that.

No-one deserves to be shamed or have their experiences dismissed just because their body betrayed them with an orgasm.

 

[AchtungNight]

Pretty much every girl I’ve known has similar feelings to the OP regarding sex. As a guy, I’m the same way pretty much. I’ve had people try to force sex on me, girls and guys (my story Bad Connections is based on true events and I dealt with a sexual bully at summer camp once), plus I’ve dealt with mean people- basically if I don’t like the person they are not sexually arousing to me no matter how attractive they are and aggressive behavior only makes me uncomfortable. Domination games and restrictive behavior in stories is not a turn on for me either. Sex positivity and honest enjoyment, friendship and respect, that’s what I like. My stories usually feature the requisite themes.

 

[Cagivagurl]

You claimed no women (or anyone, but happy to ignore men for a minute) ever orgasm from rape. Which would mean if a woman's relevant nerves and muscles spasm and she has an orgasm, by your logic, it wasn't rape. I'm asking you to reconsider that.

No-one deserves to be shamed or have their experiences dismissed just because their body betrayed them with an orgasm.

I never said that. Stop twisting my words. Read what was written.
What I said was. No woman would orgasm from rape... I can't speak for men. I know they suffer rape as well, but I am focusing on women because your initial statement spoke directly to women.

Orgasm relies on more than physical nerve endings, and stimulus.
Orgasm is mostly generated by the brain. (In my opinion) By the surroundings. The situation. A lot of women have trouble orgasming full stop. Rape certainly isn't going to help them.
Fear, disgust, self loathing. Revulsion at what is happening to her would kill any arousal. Having her choice taken away. Having her self esteem shattered. Having her confidence and personal beliefs stripped away. The shame and humiliation of what was happening to her would dull every other sense.
Having her world destroyed by somebody who was taking away her very existence, her feelings of self worth. All of those things would be paramount in her mind. What happened to her body would be of no concern.
There would be no lubrication, her skin would be torn and ripped.
For the love of god. Stop trying to sell the belief women want sex from somebody they've said no to...
No means no... Full stop.
That is my opinion. I speak only for myself and the women I have assisted.
Speak to a rape victim sometime. See what they say....
There was no enjoyment, no pleasure. It was fucking rape....

Cagivagurl

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

I never said that. Stop twisting my words. Read what was written.
What I said was. No woman would orgasm from rape...

And you were wrong, and you were wrong for saying it.

Look, I get it, we are all anonymous on the internet and can spout off whatever we want to say, but even then I try to be at least somewhat informed about what I talking about. May try researching your ideas before posting?

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I never said that. Stop twisting my words. Read what was written.

Okay, look, I know this is an emotional topic, and I was fully set on just leaving it at that... but the more you write, the harder that gets.

What I wrote above, about the roughly 60% of rape victims experiencing an orgasm during their assault, is based on what I learned during the 250+ rape cases I worked on over the past thirteen years. And it has been confirmed by every therapist and psychologist I spoke with who specializes in working with rape and incest survivors. So, I'm sorry if that doesn't align with your opinion, but, to me, that number is a fact.

Now, I respect you for all the work you put in to support women. I really, truly do! But I certainly don't appreciate the roundabout way you just called everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion a rapist and rape apologist. Your rhetoric is not helping anyone. It's dangerous and making it worse.

When you go around and say that "there were no orgasms" during "actual real rape", you are the one indirectly telling those who did orgasm that they weren't actually really raped.
When you go around and say that "Orgasm relies on more than physical nerve endings, and stimulus" and that "Revulsion at what is happening to her would kill any arousal", you are the one indirectly telling those who did orgasm that they must have liked it.

It's already hard enough to explain this shit to a thirteen-year-old who's having an existential crisis over their bodily reaction during their rape, without people putting ideas like yours into their heads.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I never said that. Stop twisting my words. Read what was written.
What I said was. No woman would orgasm from rape... I can't speak for men. I know they suffer rape as well, but I am focusing on women because your initial statement spoke directly to women.

Just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just because the women you volunteer for haven't told you about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/193e3x/iama_sexual_assault_therapist_discussing_when

https://www.teenhealthcare.org/blog/sexual-assault-orgasm/
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._non-consensual_sexual_stimulation_-_A_review
https://www.thedoe.com/2020/07/01/orgasm-during-rape-myth/ (cn for graphic description of rape)

It's clear that you feel passionately about this, and I'm sure your intentions are good, but to repeat what others have already said: when you insist that "no woman would orgasm from rape", you are telling women that if they came, it wasn't rape. This is a myth that fucks up a lot of rape survivors very badly and gives cover to rapists who don't deserve it.

Please stop a moment and try to put yourself in the shoes of a woman who has been raped, who has experienced an involuntary physical response, and hears somebody like you telling her that this isn't what happens in real rape, that she must have felt comfortable with the guy to be able to orgasm.

Orgasm relies on more than physical nerve endings, and stimulus.
Orgasm is mostly generated by the brain. (In my opinion) By the surroundings. The situation. A lot of women have trouble orgasming full stop. Rape certainly isn't going to help them.

Brains are complicated, and they are not separate from the body. Sexual response is different from one person to another. Your experiences are not universal.

Having her world destroyed by somebody who was taking away her very existence, her feelings of self worth. All of those things would be paramount in her mind. What happened to her body would be of no concern.
There would be no lubrication, her skin would be torn and ripped.

I don't think you realise how much you're sounding like the guys who say "no woman goes out dressed like that unless she's looking for sex...no woman accepts a ride from a guy unless she wants to have sex with him...it can't have been rape, her clothes would've been ripped...it can't have been rape, she doesn't look upset enough..."

I am sure you have no intention of sounding like those guys, but when you try to impose this one idea of what rape is like, and negate the experience of anybody whose rape didn't match your ideas, that is what you're doing.

For the love of god. Stop trying to sell the belief women want sex from somebody they've said no to...

You've complained about other people putting words in your mouth, but this is you putting words in other people's mouths, and extremely offensive ones at that. None of the people you're arguing with are trying to sell any such belief.

That is my opinion. I speak only for myself and the women I have assisted.

I don't know exactly what your volunteering involves, but in general I'd think it would be a weird and inappropriate thing for a volunteer to ask all those women for details about their rape. I suspect you're doing an awful lot of assuming about their experiences, without knowing for a fact just what those experiences were, and if that's the case I suspect some of them might object to you presuming to speak for them on this.

Speak to a rape victim sometime. See what they say....

It's kind of gross that you keep on acting like you're the only person in this conversation who's ever spoken to a rape victim. You are not.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I worked quite a few rape cases during my career and, in most cases, at some point, the victims shamefully admit that they did experience an orgasm during their assault. I'd say it happens in about 60% of the cases I worked on, with boys/men experiencing it more often than girls/women, but the girls/women still experience it in about half the cases. In all of those cases, the fact that they had a climax while being violated really messes them up.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. 60% of women don't orgasm during consensual sex.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/193e3x/iama_sexual_assault_therapist_discussing_when

https://www.teenhealthcare.org/blog/sexual-assault-orgasm/
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._non-consensual_sexual_stimulation_-_A_review
https://www.thedoe.com/2020/07/01/orgasm-during-rape-myth/ (cn for graphic description of rape)

All of these links are terribly vague. One of them (the only credible looking one) doesn't seem to have any numbers at all, one contains a story that reads like a lit non-con story and sounds pretty fake, and all the rest quote the same vague 5%-50% number as if copy/pasted from the same unnamed source.

Here are some numbers on consensual orgasms.

https://blogs.iu.edu/kinseyinstitute/2019/01/24/how-often-do-women-orgasm-during-sex/

Likewise, on average, women said they reach orgasm 31-40% of the time in response to the question about intercourse in general. By contrast, women said they reached orgasm even more often with assisted intercourse (51-60% of the time), but less often with unassisted intercourse (21-30% of the time).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...men-intercourse-alone-brings-few-women-orgasm

In The Case of the Female Orgasm, she concluded that only 25 percent of women are consistently orgasmic from intercourse alone.

We've all heard a hundred times, whenever some sex expert comes onto Good Morning America or whatever, they say men orgasm 95% and up during intercourse and women orgasm roughly 30%. These numbers are very much in line with the picture formed when girls talk among themselves. Us girls know. Some of us orgasm a lot, some never, most of us once in a while. The average is probably something like 30%. And this is consensual.

So yeah, all this 50-60% of rape victims climaxing is just not accurate at all. Unless rapists just tend to be extremely good in bed. I'm not saying that a
woman could never ever climax during a rape, but it would be exceedingly rare.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I wouldn't necessarily call it a lie.

From a literary standpoint it's a lie, because the trope is whether or not the woman actually orgasms in the story, she actually admits that it was a good lay. Any time that a girl says no, no matter how her 'autonomous' body may 'betray' her, it's not a good lay. That's a lie. I mean, it's fiction so you can do that, sure. It's just a shame that we can only tell rape lies on lit and not rape truth. Although I would agree that rape truth is only erotic for rapists.

Myself, I do write non-con (not often and not here). The reason that I write it is that it has strong emotions, even if not a turn on. It has very strong emotions that can move the reader and also myself as the writer.

Fantasy: a hot guy, a stranger or someone I know, decides he has to have me, no matter how much I protest, overwhelms me with his force, takes me... yeah, it's hot. But it's hot because it's a fantasy, and in the fantasy it's all sexy and it doesn't really hurt when he grabs me and he's good in bed and after he's done he leaps out of bed and vacuums the whole house.

Oh I get it, absolutely. I love dub-con, but there's a huge difference between me wanting to say yes against my better judgment and me straight up saying no, and a guy pushing and pushing me towards the yes that I want to say is very hot.

I think context and expectations have a lot to do with it. If you go into a situation where you want to feel safe, and indeed you mostly do feel safe and more or less in control of what happens to you, then it can be traumatic to find yourself no longer in control, and frightening even to anticipate a loss of control.

But in contexts where you recognise that you're not completely in control, where there is an element of risk, e.g., prison, certain types of sex work, hanging out with gang members, then there's less of a traumatic response to what is still essentially rape. This is not an excuse for rape, but it is perhaps a way for danger to be sometimes an aphrodisiac rather than an emotional pickaxe.

The fantasy of it, of course, lets you imagine and enjoy scenarios without actually losing control. So much of what we desire from sex is to lose control in a safe context. To switch off the human side of ourself and become the unthinking animal. Safely.

Well, here is the difference and I know because personally I find risk hot. I know that it's a risk and if the risk turns me on then I consent to the risk and therefore I am comfortable with that risky situation with that person. If I'm not comfortable with that situation or that person, then no amount of risk will be enough to make me say yes, and I'm certainly not going to enjoy anything when I'm not comfortable.

I have known women, including an ex-wife who shared my desire for loving intimacy but literally demanded at times that they be taken and used, relinquishing all control to someone that they trusted. A couple of these women admitted to cheating on their partner when they couldn't, or wouldn't agree to take complete control when the woman wanted them to.

As they explained it to me, sometimes they needed to feel so desired and wanted by their partner that their primal arousal could only be satisfied by complete surrender. They wanted to feel "owned". There was nothing involved other than raw, animalistic sex with no foreplay and frequently in unusual locations where comfort was unimportant. They achieved orgasms often, but not every time, and stated that they didn't care one way or the other. Loving, intimate, and tender sex typically followed soon after.

My ex-wife called it her "caveman" sex, and I've mentioned it in a few of my stories.

Again, consenting to relinquishing control to someone that you trust.

But not everybody's like this. Women and men alike grow up feeling guilty and conflicted about their sexual desires. The essence of the non-con fantasy (I think) is precisely that you can enjoy sex without being in any way responsible for it. You can totally surrender yourself to it and to your partner, and the sex will happen whether you want it to or not, and therefore you cannot be blamed or feel guilty for it. For a fleeting fantasy moment, you can enjoy the full pleasure of sex without the guilt that comes with responsibility.

I'm not going to begrudge anyone the desire for that fleeting fantasy moment.

I get this, absolutely. I may be quite vanilla compared to most of the AH but many of you might be surprised to know the darker roots of some of my fantasies. My stance is really about pseudo-rape most specifically, and that is that in these stories when the guy forces himself on the girl who says no, but then she ends up enjoying the ordeal in the end anyways, it's a lie. There is just no way, no matter how a girl's body may react, that she would come out of it somehow enjoying such an uncomfortable or humiliating (or in many cases downright scary) experience in any way.

 

[SimonDoom]

I get this, absolutely. I may be quite vanilla compared to most of the AH but many of you might be surprised to know the darker roots of some of my fantasies. My stance is really about pseudo-rape most specifically, and that is that in these stories when the guy forces himself on the girl who says no, but then she ends up enjoying the ordeal in the end anyways, it's a lie. There is just no way, no matter how a girl's body may react, that she would come out of it somehow enjoying such an uncomfortable or humiliating (or in many cases downright scary) experience in any way.

Two responses.

First, I'm a man, not a woman, so I don't claim to have any idea how a woman would respond. What you say makes sense to me as a generalization, except for this: I don't believe in universal statements about people (except that one). I think human psychology is almost infinitely complex and it's likely that at least SOME people respond in ways you cannot imagine them responding, even in this situation. None of us can say, with absolute confidence, "I'm an X, and I know for certain that no X would respond that way to Y." That level of certainty is not available to any of us about anything.

Second, whether or not it's a lie, in this context it's a fantasy, and the fact that people enjoy fantasies has nothing to do with whether they're true or not, or whether they believe they're true. I know Star Wars and Metamorphosis and Road House are all lies, but I can still enjoy them.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

First, I'm a man, not a woman, so I don't claim to have any idea how a woman would respond. What you say makes sense to me as a generalization, except for this: I don't believe in universal statements about people (except that one). I think human psychology is almost infinitely complex and it's likely that at least SOME people respond in ways you cannot imagine them responding, even in this situation. None of us can say, with absolute confidence, "I'm an X, and I know for certain that no X would respond that way to Y." That level of certainty is not available to any of us about anything.

Okay, I can hear that. Yes, I suppose that here or there throughout history there have been a handful of women who ended up enjoying their rape experience (I really shouldn't assume), but I just believe that that percentage is so microscopically small that if I'm going to read a story about this - no matter how much it may be someone's valid fantasy - I (and many others) would be instantly taken out of the moment.

I don't even think that Margaret Atwood could write a rape scene that would convince me that the victim ended up enjoying it in any significant way. If that makes me an ignorant righteous snob, so be it.

Second, whether or not it's a lie, in this context it's a fantasy, and the fact that people enjoy fantasies has nothing to do with whether they're true or not, or whether they believe they're true. I know Star Wars and Metamorphosis and Road House are all lies, but I can still enjoy them.

And I've agreed with this already in the thread. All fantasies are valid. I know that you Simon are staunchly against censorship and at the end of the world when you're the last one standing against it, I'll be the one dying on that hill right next to you. I guess what this thread is trying to ask is, is pseudo-rape simply just a zero-plausibility fantasy, or do readers and writers out there actually think that it's a reasonably common real world thing, and do people really think that women's bodies/minds really work that way a significant amount of the time?

And if they do think this, how the hell are they coming to these conclusions?

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I worked quite a few rape cases during my career and, in most cases, at some point, the victims shamefully admit that they did experience an orgasm during their assault. I'd say it happens in about 60% of the cases I worked on, with boys/men experiencing it more often than girls/women, but the girls/women still experience it in about half the cases. In all of those cases, the fact that they had a climax while being violated really messes them up.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. 60% of women don't orgasm during consensual sex.

Note @OverconfidentSarcasm was talking about both sexes. Most men and post-pubertal boys do orgasm from most sexual activity.

If their stats are from people seeking counselling, for example, it might be that the number who orgasm is small, but the whole of that group are particularly disturbed by the rape to the point of seeking help?

So yeah, all this 50-60% of rape victims climaxing is just not accurate at all.

If the group of victims being considered is mostly male or even equally so, it may well be the case. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if women orgasm from rape more than average - fear does strange things, a 'play dead' response might lead to sufficient relaxation, the reaction to doing something 'wrong' can be very powerful.

I have no idea how common it is for women, just that a fair few women I know who have been raped say it happened. And both the men, for that matter. And as @OverconfidentSarcasm says, the fact that it happened messed them up possibly more than enduring the assault in the first place.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Just for the avoidance of doubt: just because someone orgasms doesn't mean they enjoyed the experience in any way at all - a couple posts above read as if the author is conflating the two.

Hitachi torture would be an example of a hopefully-consensual but not necessarily enjoyable experience.

 

[MillieDynamite]

In my Vengence is Mine story, the rape isn't covered, the story is up to that point and cut off, moving forward, and years later, she exacts her revenge.

The exact wording is:


If I language lawyer for a second, I don't think the wording supports vengeance stories (although they do seem to get published). It's not the act that they're enjoying, it's the aftermath (even if they turn the tables and get vengence during, I don't think it quite fits)

Obviously, you can be 'thrilled' without orgasming but the way its worded doesn't seem to allow a lot of wiggle room for anything other than sexual pleasure.

What are people thinking are some other potential scenarios for this category (whether they meet the rules or not)?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Note @OverconfidentSarcasm was talking about both sexes. Most men and post-pubertal boys do orgasm from most sexual activity.

If their stats are from people seeking counselling, for example, it might be that the number who orgasm is small, but the whole of that group are particularly disturbed by the rape to the point of seeking help?

If the group of victims being considered is mostly male or even equally so, it may well be the case. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if women orgasm from rape more than average - fear does strange things, a 'play dead' response might lead to sufficient relaxation, the reaction to doing something 'wrong' can be very powerful.

I have no idea how common it is for women, just that a fair few women I know who have been raped say it happened. And both the men, for that matter. And as @OverconfidentSarcasm says, the fact that it happened messed them up possibly more than enduring the assault in the first place.

There are a lot of apples and oranges being mixed in this whole discussion, in my opinion. The claim is that a majority of men/boys - victims of rape experience an orgasm during the deed? But nowhere in your claims do I see specified that the orgasm comes only from the anal penetration and thus only from the prostate being stimulated by the invader. If that were the case, I would find these claims absolutely ludicrous. There is no way so many men can come just by their prostate being stimulated in such a way while feeling humiliated and violated. I am going to assume that the rapist is maybe also playing with the victim's penis as an additional stimulator for their own sense of pleasure? But if that is the case then it shouldn't be put in the same category as women orgasming from penetration only during rape. Or are there many cases where women - victims of rape have had their clitoris stimulated during the experience? I find all of these things hard to even mention, tbh.
I think all of these claims need some clarifying as you have created more confusion for everyone. And I mean all of you who are discussing this topic.

 

[AlinaX]

No they really don't.

 

[TheRedChamber]

In my Vengence is Mine story, the rape isn't covered, the story is up to that point and cut off, moving forward, and years later, she exacts her revenge.

That's kind of the point surely. The 'non-enjoyable' rape scene would have been banned had you chosen to write it. That she gets revenge wouldn't have made that scene okay according to a reading of the lit rules - although it would still fit in the category.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I find this incredibly hard to believe. 60% of women don't orgasm during consensual sex.

I have three things I'd like to say to that.

1. I didn't claim that 60% of women experience an orgasm during rape. I said that 60% of rape victims experience it. That includes men and children. I did say that men/boys experience it more often than women/girls, but women/girls still experience it in about half the cases I worked on. That is because...

2. ...drugs. During those "consensual" sex sessions, how many of the women were sedated in some way? Or dosed with MDMA? It makes one hell of a difference during the act, but seldomly afterwards.

3. The cases that didn't involve drugs... I'd claim that the female victims in roughly 30%-40% of the cases experienced an orgasm. I don't know why, and I'm not going to pretend I understand it. I once asked a psychologist about it, and she started with some kind of metaphor about looking at orgasms as if it was the "purr of a cat". It doesn't just happen when they feel good, it's also a reaction to extreme stress or pain.
She honestly lost me on that one. But I'm not a psychologist. So, I just accepted that this woman, who is way smarter than me and specialized in the field, told me that it was perfectly normal for it to happen.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

I guess what this thread is trying to ask is, is pseudo-rape simply just a zero-plausibility fantasy, or do readers and writers out there actually think that it's a reasonably common real world thing, and do people really think that women's bodies/minds really work that way a significant amount of the time?

Nearly all of Literotica's stories fall outside +/- 2 standard deviations from normal experiences. Entire categories, in fact. Very few good stories live entirely in the 'normal people in normal situations doing normal things' realm. But it could happen... cue Judy Tenuta

 

[MillieDynamite]

Yes, I know.

That's kind of the point surely. The 'non-enjoyable' rape scene would have been banned had you chosen to write it. That she gets revenge wouldn't have made that scene okay according to a reading of the lit rules - although it would still fit in the category.

 

[KeithD]

There are a lot of apples and oranges being mixed in this whole discussion, in my opinion. The claim is that a majority of men/boys - victims of rape experience an orgasm during the deed? But nowhere in your claims do I see specified that the orgasm comes only from the anal penetration and thus only from the prostate being stimulated by the invader. If that were the case, I would find these claims absolutely ludicrous. There is no way so many men can come just by their prostate being stimulated in such a way while feeling humiliated and violated.

Men/boys can come just from arousal thoughts or stimulating visuals. If their mind registers "sexy" that's all it takes. Beating and whipping can be going on and if it registers in their mind that this is sexy, they can/will come. I imagine there's a threshold not to be gone beyond with this in RL, but it would be a different threshold for fantasy fiction.

I handle nonconsent in the GM genre here by establishing that the protagonist mentally wants it and fantasized taking it rough before putting him in the situation of having it happen. There's never a question on whether it can make him come, though. Men/boys are little bunnies. They can come at the mere hint of getting off.

 

[EmilysRopes]

"Rape fantasy" is a total misnomer in nearly all cases although I would accept a few women genuinely have such fantasies. Further rape in rl is an abominable crime.

What I think a lot of women have, certainly including me, is a fantasy of being forcibly taken by a guy (or woman) that you really want to have sex with. 'Forcibly' has a wide meaning for me too, ranging from being grabbed and tied up to rituals to playing sex games that end up being consummated.

I haven't tried to write non-consensual stories as they aren't me and I'd never get the right feel but if others do, good luck to them. I'll probably skip over reading them though.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

1. I didn't claim that 60% of women experience an orgasm during rape. I said that 60% of rape victims experience it. That includes men and children. I did say that men/boys experience it more often than women/girls, but women/girls still experience it in about half the cases I worked on. That is because...

How many pseudo-rape stories involve male victims? In the non-con category? There probably is but I've never seen one. Perhaps there are more in the gay male category.

But my opening post specifically talks about female victim pseudo-rape, and only asked about male victim experiences to compare to the female. So your 60% regardless of gender claim is not an appropriate stat.

I'd claim that the female victims in roughly 30%-40% of the cases experienced an orgasm.

No, I still don't buy that. 30-40% would be exactly the same as consensual orgasms. So 30-40% in non-consensual orgasms could prove that the body responds purely independent of emotions at all, let alone comfort or trust. What that number tells us essentially is that circumstances are irrelevant and if we are touched in a certain right way we have no choice but to experience a reflexive climax. Pretty much all of us don't need a study to tell us that that's not true.

 

[lustychimera]

This whole conversation feels really fucking weird, like rapes are up on this big pedestal where someone holds you down and has their way with you.

There's a lot of dubious consent circumstances that seems are getting glossed over.

Like, you don't think you can get hard if you're being raped? WTF? Or it's impossible for a woman to cum? That's the kind of misinformation that helps cause so many rapes to go unreported.

"Well, I got hard." Or "I did kind of enjoy it once he got going..."