Empathy

[gauchecritic]

Sorry to drag this down and bring up the subject following but to my mind all this controversy/crap is about politics.

Kids today eh?

In Britain at least, the outlook (I hate the word attitude having been accused of having one for most of my early teens/20s) of youngsters has changed dramatically since the 70s. In my mind it's the influence, not only, of hollywood cashing in on free speech and the liberalisation of all media but also, the dehumanizing and everbody for themselves ethos inculcated by the 'Thatcher Years'.

Whilst giving everyone the impetus to make good for themselves it failed to also include the fact of actions having consequence.

Pregnancy doesn't happen to boys. It is no concern to them. The only consequence of sex is orgasm.

Gauche

 

[TheEarl]

I have to say it's a good idea. Admittedly I'm not qualified to judge whether it completely simulates pregnancy, but it's a start and that's a good thing.

A scientific study recently showed that drunk men tend to hang on to simple arguments. So therefore, if they're in a urinals and they see a sticker saying 'Aids kills!' then they're much more likely to use a condom that night. The same theory holds true with the empathy belly I think. The drunken and horny teenage boy may not have enough blood for both ends of his body, but he will still seize simple arguments. If the belly recreates half the discomfort of pregnancy, then I think that argument is simple enough.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

Well, in that case...

Earl-

I guess if the drunk boy were wearing the empathy belly when he was trying to shag a girl then the simple message would stick.

b

 

[ffreak]

So here's a good rumour to spread around the pubs and bars of the world:

The CIA has discovered a new additive that they are selling to brewers that is tasteless and colorless. It has no effect until the blood alcohol level raises enough to impair thinking. At that time, the pheromones of the opposite sex cause the imbiber to become violently ill, thus preventing many cases of unwanted pregnancy, STD's and the problem of population explosion.

Wouldn't affect me. I don't drink beer. Besides, it doesn't take any outside influence to impair my thinking.

 

[Guest]

Sorry to drag this down and bring up the subject following but to my mind all this controversy/crap is about politics. ...

The only consequence of sex is orgasm.

It wasn't a matter of dragging it down, I avoided the particular politics for my point about 'outlooks' on women, but Gauche is right. This 'thing' is part of an educational system, i.e., political. When first reading the article I took a moment to imagine all the British pounds and man-hours spent on developing this program, not to mention the past few decades that have brought our children to this state.

Great last line.

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

This 'thing' is part of an educational system, i.e., political. When first reading the article I took a moment to imagine all the British pounds and man-hours spent on developing this program, not to mention the past few decades that have brought our children to this state.


Perdita

Perdita,

This "thing" is made in the USA and exported to the UK with an instruction manual for its use.

As I said in an earlier post I had seen one over a decade ago. It was a curiosity that was available for use in suitable circumstances. The only use I heard about was on men who accompanied their partners to ante-natal classes. Such men are not likely to need it.

Og

 

[Guest]

Ogg, I meant the program as the 'thing', but I am sorry it was made in the USA (though probably only developed here at some exhorbitant cost and shipped to a third world country for manufacture).

Now you get to reply, and earn another post. I am excited about your tag line promise.

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

OK, Perdita, here's another post towards the magic number.

In my second career I joined a Social Services Department as a senior manager. I must have been mad. I had come from a commercial environment where profit was King.

As a commercial manager I was rated as being slightly too people biased. I actually believed in treating my staff as human beings.

In Social Services I was rated as being slightly less cruel than Genghis Khan. I actually wanted measurable outputs and adherance to budgetary constraints. I wanted to know that what the Department was doing to people was actually helpful and if not, why not. Heresy.

The Directors tried to sideline me by getting me to design their new budgetary system. I did. The result was that they could count every person they were "helping" and exactly how much their "help" to that individual cost. The true cost including overheads was visible.

The final straw was when I laughed out loud at a Directors' meeting. It was seriously proposed that the following performance measure should be used:

"Last month, how many people have you prevented from being compulsorily admitted to Mental Hospital for being a serious threat to the lives of themselves or others?"

The Directors couldn't see that it was a question like "When did you stop beating your wife?"

I was fired. They even got that wrong.

I have considerable respect for front line social workers who deal with insoluble problems day in and day out. I have little or none for the policy makers who have little idea of life in the front line.

Og

 

[champagne1982]

PLOP!

[...]Considering the availability of a morning after pill in society today, no woman should contemplate pregnancy without the understanding that this is an 18+ year project they are taking-on.
[...]

So the man walks off and remains an irresponsible portion of the reproductive cycle. I can hear the post-coital conversation now, "It's okay baby. There's a pill that can cure pregnancy. I'm afraid that I can't do anything about the HIV that I may have transmitted through unprotected sex, but... Hey! The rest of your life dealing with all of the horrible symptoms of AIDS won't kill ya."

My point is: No one shoud contemplate sex without a condom. Latex ones are dual purpose prophylactics, against 1) disease and 2) pregnancy. The only way they will work is if a man agrees to use them. A woman can insist on the wearing but the only way to be sure of the use is to have her man's cooperation.

Maybe the belly and the oh no baby! combined with some education will help slow the rate of HIV spread and teen pregnancy. Statistics show, that even with free access to condoms and education about AIDS, too few teens use condoms during sex. Dropping a 30 pound weight in a boy's lap could just jolt his pecker hard enough that he's reminded to use "protection". Then again, it may not have a favourable result. I'd rather gamble on the safe side than never take the chance that something positive may come of it.

edited for typo correction.

 

[destinie21]

I've said this before and I'll say it again woman need to take more resposibility. Were not some blind doe eyed fools who have to depend on men. Carry condoms w/you it's not so hard. In this day and age anyone who gets an std or even a woman who gets pregnant is by alleged "accident" is resposible for that. If you use a condom and it breaks well then that's different. Also every ,lover that I've had has done an std check, yes it costs but I'd rather pay now than later. I value myself and my life to much to engage in frivolity. I don't play russian roulette.




pS: before anyone goes there yes I am a lesbian but I've had sex with a men once or twice. I don't give a tinkers damn if he says it's uncomfortable. So is a eight or nine pound kid sitting directly on top of your bladder not to mention the clap is probably no walk in the park.

 

[champagne1982]

Good for you!

I've said this before and I'll say it again woman need to take more resposibility. Were not some blind doe eyed fools who have to depend on men. Carry condoms w/you it's not so hard. In this day and age anyone who gets an std or even a woman who gets pregnant is by alleged "accident" is resposible for that. If you use a condom and it breaks well then that's different. Also every ,lover that I've had has done an std check, yes it costs but I'd rather pay now than later. I value myself and my life to much to engage in frivolity. I don't play russian roulette.

You're a long ways from being a 14 year old mother.

 

[destinie21]

Re: Good for you!

You're a long ways from being a 14 year old mother.

I've had this way of thinking for a long time though. Even before I was 14 though I wasn't sexually active. Society in general is willing to place the blame everywhere but where it belongs. If you're 14 and you engage in sex then you need to be responsible.
It's shitty but woman got what appears to be the raw deal. But people can follow basic steps. for instance anyone over the age of 5 should know a green light means go and a red light means stop. If you waltz into the strret on a greenlight you can't tell me
"I accidently got hit by a car. It was the driver's fault." The hell it was. You knew what you were walking into and you went anyway.

 

[Guest]

Sorry to drag this down and bring up the subject following but to my mind all this controversy/crap is about politics.

Kids today eh?

In Britain at least, the outlook (I hate the word attitude having been accused of having one for most of my early teens/20s) of youngsters has changed dramatically since the 70s. In my mind it's the influence, not only, of hollywood cashing in on free speech and the liberalisation of all media but also, the dehumanizing and everbody for themselves ethos inculcated by the 'Thatcher Years'.

Whilst giving everyone the impetus to make good for themselves it failed to also include the fact of actions having consequence.

Pregnancy doesn't happen to boys. It is no concern to them. The only consequence of sex is orgasm.

Gauche

Gauche, you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Nothing to add really, except to say: Thatcher has got an awful lot to answer for.

A pre-Thatcher child,
Loulou

 

[Guest]

Re: Good for you!

You're a long ways from being a 14 year old mother.

That's the point.

to Dest: I agree with you re. 'adults', but teenagers don't even believe they can die so they drive drunk or high, copy stupid TV stunts, etc. Pregnancy is just another unreality to them and sex is so complicated by their personal lives, religion, the media, their parents, the school system, etc., they basically rely mostly on a very small group of peers all in the same storm tossed boat.

Perdita (not being argumentative, just keeping it to the sticking point)

edited after reading Dest's last post: Babe, I'd say you were the exception to the rule.

 

[destinie21]

Re: Re: Good for you!

That's the point.

to Dest: I agree with you re. 'adults', but teenagers don't even believe they can die so they drive drunk or high, copy stupid TV stunts, etc. Pregnancy is just another unreality to them and sex is so complicated by their personal lives, religion, the media, their parents, the school system, etc., they basically rely mostly on a very small group of peers all in the same storm tossed boat.

Perdita (not being argumentative, just keeping it to the sticking point)

edited after reading Dest's last post: Babe, I'd say you were the exception to the rule.

That may be right maybe it was just how I was raised though.
I don't know.

 

[Guest]

What is really wrong with this picture?

Teenage pregnancy is not the real problem.

The real problem is that young people who can't remember to finish their pre-algebra homework or take their gym clothes home to get them washed are engaging in sex. We wouldn't give them their trust funds at 14 and say, "Go, have a ball. Make decisions."

Why in the world do we expect them to be able to be "responsible" during sex? Talk about naive. Even scarier to me is the number of girls that are getting HPV and ending up with cervical cancer in their early twenties.

Never mind all the emotional stuff that goes along with it.

b - mother of four daughters

 

[Jenny _S]

Personally I can't believe this would work at all. First it's a game. It's funny and a waste of time. Children (early teens) don't really learn that way. Some comedian, Elaine Boosler I think, said "if they wanna know what it's like to have a baby, try cramming a watermelon up their ass. They'll get the picture."

Now I like that.

 

[Icingsugar]

What Og said.

The only one who'd learn anything from strutting around in a maternity empathy suit I think would be certain insensitive spouses of already pregnant women.

And, as already pointed out, it doesn't really simulate anything else than having a belly. No morning sickness, no pickle cravings, no angst of how that huge lump eventually is gonna have to come out.

No, this is shennanigans and show-play.

 

[ffreak]

champagne is right, though.

Yes, we have so much inundation about what 'safe-sex' is and about how STD's can kill you (VD in my day), and about birth control and about how your parents do or don't have to be told.

But considering that kids can't see themselves really 'growing-up' what with all the talk of terrorism and how unsafe it is even in the U.S., and the murder rate, and muggings, there is no way that a teenager, being told that they're the only one that matters - just to get in their pants, is going to consider any real danger of HIV or any other disastrous medical result. In fact, if the guise of 'true' love is around, pregnancy may not only not be a fear, it may be a mis-guided, desired consequence (don't ask me about my daughter, just take my word for it).

or to quote one of my favorite lyrics:
Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love
He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of
But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared god damn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls
And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore

'n that's all I got to say 'bout that.

 

[Jenny _S]

champagne is right, though.

Yes, we have so much inundation about what 'safe-sex' is and about how STD's can kill you (VD in my day), and about birth control and about how your parents do or don't have to be told.

But considering that kids can't see themselves really 'growing-up' what with all the talk of terrorism and how unsafe it is even in the U.S., and the murder rate, and muggings, there is no way that a teenager, being told that they're the only one that matters - just to get in their pants, is going to consider any real danger of HIV or any other disastrous medical result. In fact, if the guise of 'true' love is around, pregnancy may not only not be a fear, it may be a mis-guided, desired consequence (don't ask me about my daughter, just take my word for it).

or to quote one of my favorite lyrics:
Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love
He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of
But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared god damn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls
And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore

'n that's all I got to say 'bout that.

Kids today are scary when it comes to sex. Partly because they have no sense of mortality which leads them to believe they are somehow magically immune to STD's, HIV, etc. and also because parents, schools and society have too long condoned the teaching and use of contraceptives among teens.

Pregnacy is just as unimportant to them. There's always abortion or their parents will "take care of it" somehow or other.

Finally the kids see themselves as "grown up" and in many ways they are more grown up in worldly ways than I was at their ages. They have their own hidden society that we aren't really a part of in the way they dress, their attitudes and even their language.

 

[destinie21]

I don't understand what going on w/kids and parents today but I know when I was 14 I had a brain. I also had friends who thought the same way as I do. I still say it goes back to parenting vs society. Society might have said it was okay for me to have condoms and be on the pill but my parents sure as hell didn't. My mother used to spot check my purse and go threw my things and go in my room all of it. There was no such thing as privacy. If I was on the phone and she picked up and listend I'd get mad but then she'd say "Since when did you pay the bills" This is my phone and my house if you don't like it leave. One day I thought I was grown up so I bought a lock and put it on my door.My parents didn't say a word. The next day when I came home my door was gone. I didn't see it again for six months
Another time I took my mother literally and left for a few days thinking I would show her. I tried to come three days later like things were fine and the locks were changed. Later my parents told me they knew where I was all along. (my friends mom had called). I know of parents who let their kids friends stay over without a word to the parents. Of course a kid is going to say my mom said I could. I understand kids think they're immortal but what does a parent do now?

 

[Jenny _S]

I don't understand what going on w/kids and parents today but I know when I was 14 I had a brain. I also had friends who thought the same way as I do. I still say it goes back to parenting vs society. Society might have said it was okay for me to have condoms and be on the pill but my parents sure as hell didn't.

What are parents going to do, Destinie? Lock the kids in their rooms with their own phones, computers, their own internet access, their own televisions, their own VHS/DVD players and so on?

Unless you take all that away from them, they might as well be out roaming the streets with their friends. Lock them in their rooms and you have Britney Spears at 100,000 decibels while the kid cybers with her boyfriend on the Web.

If the kid doesn't have all that stuff then they are "underprivileged" and you are a "bad parent". It's a losing battle.

 

[destinie21]

What are parents going to do, Destinie? Lock the kids in their rooms with their own phones, computers, their own internet access, their own televisions, their own VHS/DVD players and so on?

Unless you take all that away from them, they might as well be out roaming the streets with their friends. Lock them in their rooms and you have Britney Spears at 100,000 decibels while the kid cybers with her boyfriend on the Web.

If the kid doesn't have all that stuff then they are "underprivileged" and you are a "bad parent". It's a losing battle.

I guess I was underprivlaged I had none of the above. Anyhoo I really was asking what should parents do, I mean what would you do?

 

[Jenny _S]

I guess I was underprivlaged I had none of the above. Anyhoo I really was asking what should parents do, I mean what would you do?

Destinie,
I would go back to the "good ole days" when being sent to your room meant isolation - no TV, no Movies, no Phone and all the rest. Parents have to take charge of their kid's lives. Moreover, they have learn that love, tolerance and all the good things the kids have that they have no appreciation for make Jack a shitty little asshole.

I see it all around me. Parents are teaching their kids that they can have anything if they make a big enough scene at Walmart. Kids do whatever they want and get away with it because parents don't want to disipline them.

The schools and courts don't help. The schools are teaching kids that a spanking is "child abuse" and kids are calling the cops on their own parents. The courts are backing the damn kids.

This is a sick world we have here and getting worse.

 

[ffreak]

The best thing a parent can do is love their children - No Matter What. And never stop - children can tell the difference when they see their friends around their parents, with the kids getting ignored. Somewhere along the line it does sink in - that the parent is another person trying to do the best they know how, and that in spite of all the mistakes, the one thing they do have in unconditional love.

When you punish a child, if it doesn't hurt you to have to do it, how can you expect them to not hurt in a recoverable way? OK, if that needs explaining, it's basically that hurting a child for no purpose creates a deep scar they just don't get over. An I'm sorry I have to do this, or I'm sorry I did that, will you forgive me, goes a long way in the parent child relationship.

To me the scariest situation with kids these days is that the child-stealers know these same principles and can pick-out the kids who don't have that nurturing home.