Establishing trust

[catalina_francisco]

honestly I can't say I've really trusted people until I've spent a lot of time with them, and yes, that includes face to face. There are too many people spending too much time getting really good at elaborate lies. That said, there are people online I may *believe* if not totally trust.

I can't explain how a bullshit meter or a set of red flags works, only that both have sharpened a lot after being lied to a lot a few times and let down a few times.

It is good the way that develops. I still am happy I didn't buy into the idea I had to prove my worthiness by not checking if I was getting the truth online by giving them enough rope to hang themselves. It worked wonderfully for me and I usually knew the ones who were going to fall into the trap and the ones who weren't..and then it was amusing to see how they would try and talk, bluff or patronise their way out of their stuff up. Maybe I should have seen that as a clue I might have a sadistic strwak in me after all.

Catalina

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

trust level?

I was going to start a thread on this as one of my research questions, but it might fit in here well.

Does it take more trust to establish/maintain a D/s relationship than a vanilla one? It feels like it would to me, but maybe that's just a newbie misperception.

Thanks,
Rox.

 

[angel_girl]

I have no problem trusting. In fact, I probably trust way too quickly. My problem is being able to step back from the need and gain some real perspective on the situation before moving forward. I think the fact that I've been willing to overlook potential issues that have always been a problem in any vanilla relationship I've had speaks directly to the sense of urgency I have to explore this side of me. This desire can too easily push aside my common sense and allow me to trust others when I should trust my instincts.

 

[JMohegan]

My take on establishing trust is this. All things begin with the Golden Key: Proactive Communication.

And that communication must be, as someone else said, "obsessively honest".

I find that with Mine, it is often necessary, as much as I am trusted, to pull things out of my slave. She is so used to having to hide her feelings and so used to having her point of view ignored that even with all I have done to reverse it, she still clams up when she gets upset. I can either wait for her to calm down, or I can corner her and give her no option but to flame me. Sometimes one, sometimes the other. But in any case, I will hunt down the problem and, through open, honest, pro-active (and sometimes aggressively pro-active!) communication, we have kept our relationship alive through things that would have destroyed other relationships.

There is nothing so important, in my mind, as open, honest, proactive communication. It is upon this that trust can be built safely.

I have a different view on this.

Honesty is a prerequisite, of course. But I establish trust by doing, not talking.

If I commit to doing something, I do it. If I say I won't, I don't. I am dependable in an emergency, respectful of a partner's limits and limitations, etc.

Behaving in a trustworthy way. That's how I earn a partner's trust.

And on the other side of the coin, that's how she earns mine as well.

 

[JMohegan]

I have no problem trusting. In fact, I probably trust way too quickly. My problem is being able to step back from the need and gain some real perspective on the situation before moving forward. I think the fact that I've been willing to overlook potential issues that have always been a problem in any vanilla relationship I've had speaks directly to the sense of urgency I have to explore this side of me. This desire can too easily push aside my common sense and allow me to trust others when I should trust my instincts.

This is a very common problem.

Hopefully, those who have been in a similar situation will step forward and explain how they cope.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

I have no problem trusting. In fact, I probably trust way too quickly. My problem is being able to step back from the need and gain some real perspective on the situation before moving forward. I think the fact that I've been willing to overlook potential issues that have always been a problem in any vanilla relationship I've had speaks directly to the sense of urgency I have to explore this side of me. This desire can too easily push aside my common sense and allow me to trust others when I should trust my instincts.

Angel_girl, do you find this to be the case on both a physical and emotional level?

I myself am much more apt to trust physically then to let myself be vulnerable emotionally. One of the things I'm a little afraid of in searching this out. It seems like the emotional trust should be there first before trusting somebody with your physical limits.

Rox.

 

[angel_girl]

Angel_girl, do you find this to be the case on both a physical and emotional level?

I myself am much more apt to trust physically then to let myself be vulnerable emotionally. One of the things I'm a little afraid of in searching this out. It seems like the emotional trust should be there first before trusting somebody with your physical limits.

Rox.

Rox,

I moved this to the No Stupid Questions thread on the BDSM Cafe in hopes that I could get some good feedback. Maybe you will too, no?

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=20005993#post20005993

~Angel

 

[FurryFury]

I tend to trust people from the get go but I'm a little wary due to my past. If they show me any reasons not to trust and provided I haven't become too involved with them by that point, I'm done.

Fury

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Rox,

I moved this to the No Stupid Questions thread on the BDSM Cafe in hopes that I could get some good feedback. Maybe you will too, no?

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=20005993#post20005993

~Angel

Thanks, I've been wanting to participate over there, but was waiting to see where it was headed. I've subscribed to it so I'll know when someone posts.

Rox.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

I tend to trust people from the get go but I'm a little wary due to my past. If they show me any reasons not to trust and provided I haven't become too involved with them by that point, I'm done.

Fury

I know once my trust gets broken it's very hard for me to give it again. I'll try if I want the relationship to continue, but it stays in the back of my mind for a long time.

Rox.

 

[FurryFury]

I know once my trust gets broken it's very hard for me to give it again. I'll try if I want the relationship to continue, but it stays in the back of my mind for a long time.

Rox.

Never forget, possibly forgive, but if I'm in a relationship, I'm like a dog with a bone. I don't leave. That's his job.

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

Rox,

I moved this to the No Stupid Questions thread on the BDSM Cafe in hopes that I could get some good feedback. Maybe you will too, no?

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=20005993#post20005993

~Angel

I think you will find the same answers and more by asking the whole forum, than limiting yourself to one thread. The beauty of asking a particular question in a thread of its own is not only do you get a diversity of answers from many people's experiences and opinions, but you also have a better chance of having your questions answered instead of it being lost in a lot of aimless chatter. The Cafe is actually for fun and chatter while Talk is devoted to seriously answering and discussing questions and trying to keep it on track.

Something we also try to encourage here also is looking at what works for you, a variety of viewpoints, more so than one person setting themselves up somewhere as the authority to answer everyone's questions. I am not saying that is what will happen in that thread and I sincerely hope it doesn't, but while we do admire some people here because of their wealth of hands on knowledge (and this knowledge usually becomes trusted through their posting history displaying consistency, honesty and common sense....bit like trying to get to know a possible future partner), we tend to encourage a climate of equality more so than placing some above others and putting them in a position of supplying the knowledge. If we were to follow that pattern the board would most likely only have information from select Dom/mes because of their dominant position in the community, and subs/slaves/bottoms etc would have little or no sharing of knowledge based on their own valueable experiences, insights and knowledge which would be sad, not to mention very limited in the knowledge provided. You will find over time you will trust the words of some more than others, but please do not limit your experience of the board to one thread and neglect the wealth of knowledge others here have to offer and have been sharing without the need for segregation throughout the years the BDSM forum has been operating.

In terms of the question of this thread about trust, don't trust someone just because they tell you to, or they tell you they have experience, or worst of all, because you are in a hurry to begin your journey and mistakenly think anyone or the first one to offer will do....take your time, think carefully about what they say over time, don't ignore inconsistencies in what they have told you, and follow your gut as it usually guides you well. You can also do as I did when I was looking and after talking to someone for anytime, if it was working toward a meeting or such, regardless of whether I had doubts or not, I would test their trustworthiness. How? I had a fake profile under which I would contact them (or sometims they even contacted me ), and I would see what happened, I was usually spot on and the ones I thought were lying usually jumped at the change to talk to another prospective sub, regardless of whethre they had told me they were not looking anymore because they thought the real me was the one for them. LOL, it was interesting at how quick they would declare themselves singel with no-one they were talking to or interested in and repeat the same BS they had been spinning me, even more amusing when I let them know what had happened and they tried to excuse their bahaviour and some stupidly tried to convince me they knew it was me all along and would never have done anything otherwise!! It was wonderful to find F, the only one i ever felt was trustworthy, actually was and would respond telling my fake persona that he was involved with an Aussie sub and like the gentleman he is, said thanks, but no thanks...and he had no idea it was me.

Catalina

 

[angel_girl]

I think you will find the same answers and more by asking the whole forum, than limiting yourself to one thread. The beauty of asking a particular question in a thread of its own is not only do you get a diversity of answers from many people's experiences and opinions, but you also have a better chance of having your questions answered instead of it being lost in a lot of aimless chatter. The Cafe is actually for fun and chatter while Talk is devoted to seriously answering and discussing questions and trying to keep it on track.

Something we also try to encourage here also is looking at what works for you, a variety of viewpoints, more so than one person setting themselves up somewhere as the authority to answer everyone's questions. I am not saying that is what will happen in that thread and I sincerely hope it doesn't, but while we do admire some people here because of their wealth of hands on knowledge (and this knowledge usually becomes trusted through their posting history displaying consistency, honesty and common sense....bit like trying to get to know a possible future partner), we tend to encourage a climate of equality more so than placing some above others and putting them in a position of supplying the knowledge. If we were to follow that pattern the board would most likely only have information from select Dom/mes because of their dominant position in the community, and subs/slaves/bottoms etc would have little or no sharing of knowledge based on their own valueable experiences, insights and knowledge which would be sad, not to mention very limited in the knowledge provided. You will find over time you will trust the words of some more than others, but please do not limit your experience of the board to one thread and neglect the wealth of knowledge others here have to offer and have been sharing without the need for segregation throughout the years the BDSM forum has been operating.

Catalina

Excellent point and quite short sighted of me. Thanks for the very gentle rap on the knuckles.

~Angel

 

[Quint]

...........

 

[catalina_francisco]

Excellent point and quite short sighted of me. Thanks for the very gentle rap on the knuckles.

~Angel

Ah, not meant to be a rap, just sharing some about the board. From time to time we do get people come here and think we should all listen to just their POV without establishing any trust on the board. It is easy to fall into if you are not experienced, and though some may be OK, not all are and there have been more than a couple just looking to get an online sub to play with...or a stable full....or inflated with their own importance which often is not backed by experience at all. One of the nice things I have found here is most of us look out for each other in these situations and no-one sits back and lets it slide if they see things happening which might hurt someone on the board in any way. We can be a bit too serious at times about SSC, but it is better than not caring at all.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

I was going to start a thread on this as one of my research questions, but it might fit in here well.

Does it take more trust to establish/maintain a D/s relationship than a vanilla one? It feels like it would to me, but maybe that's just a newbie misperception.

Thanks,
Rox.

Trust in any relationship can be difficult. Not just sexual/romantic ones.

I have had my trust broken by friends far more than by any lover.

Net mentioned red flags. It is difficult to explain what it is that triggers an element of distrust towards a person as it can be very subjective.

I agree with the concept it is easier to give a physical level of trust.
In BDSM terms I went to a dungeon play party once. I spent the entire evening watching a Dom play with a number of submissives, including his wife. He was very respectful of limits and took what he was seriously. He did not harm, humiliate or make anything difficult for the sub involved. I let him put me on a St Andrews Cross and flog me. I had a wonderful time, I trusted him to keep me safe and he did.
The question of whether I would trust him outside that small low key scene is easily answered with a very clear NO.

He is not a person I would trust in anything other than the 20 minute relationship we had.
There were so many red flags that popped up when I viewed him as a whole person it looked like a marina on a sunny day.

When I was looking for a D/s relationship I did think it would take more trust than finding the right vanilla person.
Then I realised the 'right' vanilla person is not out there for me. I needed something different to that.
When I had tried 'trusting' a vanilla man with my most secret desires/wishes/fantasies I had to stop long before I even came close to what was really hidden inside me. Their reaction to the small things I said, gave me red flags that I would not be able to trust them fully with who I really was, the hidden me.

Once I realised trust was not just about how dumb he could be with a whip in his hand, it became easier to trust a Dom than it did to trust anyone else.

However, even that was in stages. I have limited experience of D/s relationships. I have spoken to many Doms but only had one lasting relationship prior to Andante. The only person I have been able to develop an all encompassing 360 degree trust relationship with is Andante.

He earned my devotion and trust not through and scene or play but through his unwavering support to protect me on an emotional level when I was at a very vulnerable point in life.

 

[neonflux]

I have been wanting to post ever since this thread was resurrected, but have started crying each time I've tried. This is a really hard one for me right now, having been "betrayed" by not one, but two people in a very short time frame - and knowing that both were actually decent people who under the circumstances could not do but what they did...

BETRAYAL #1: In February (the whole story can be found in pieces on the AH and GLBT boards), I thought that I'd found a woman with whom I could actually fall in love - had known her for years peripherally through a couple of my social circles, but we'd never been in a position to act on our mutual attraction. I always use safer sex (except with primary(s) after knowing them a long time), but it's not 100% protective against herpes. She gave it to me.

angel_girl, as far as listening to your gut, I didn't that night. Something felt very wrong in her behavior, but it was our first time and I "jumped in" as you describe. In retrospect, I think she might have suspected she was coming down with an outbreak, but couldn't bear to tell me that she had HSV. This act changed my life forever - I gave it to my primary (with whom I don't practice safer sex) 5 days later - didn't know I had it yet and while I was experiencing my first "prodromo" symptoms, I didn't have any idea of what they meant... While I forgave her, I have not seen her since - she is still in denial, took her over a month to even admit she had it.

BETRAYAL #2: My primary, with whom I've never had a cross word (except for the short period of time I'm about to describe), didn't blame me for it - he is a mensch. However, he began questioning his own life choices after we got it. He was raised Mormon and I know that in crisis old beliefs can be hard to shake - think that he felt as though this was a warning, a punishment... When we met, he had just broken up for the umpteenth time with a woman who is actually pretty emotionally abusive (much like my ex can be at her worst), but whom he couldn't "get out of his system." He also felt guilty about breaking up with her and about having chickened out of living with her several years before.

Shortly before my b-day - we were supposed to go to Disneyland - his ex's sister died and he went to support her (another state). I didn't hear from him for several days after he got back. Finally, he called, two days before my b-day, and broke up with me over the phone - he claims this wasn't his intent, but if this were true, he would have waited until we could see each other in person. It was the only remotely cruel thing he's ever done to me - it wasn't so much that he went back to her - that I had always knew in my gut might have been a possibility. Rather it was the disrespect and callousness with which he did it - although I suspect that because he loves me so much, he wouldn't have been able to do it any other way (he's said as much). As Freud says, we don't always desire what we love...

We are back together now. During the interrum, I threw myself into BDSM exploration - had been moving in that direction before with a woman friend / sweetie / play partner & before that a short-term lover who is quite sub. But I really jumped in after this happened, beginning with a BDSM cleansing done by a close friend - it was the only thing that got me stabilized.

TRUST: The difficulty for me is that I've been around long enough to know the signs of someone who is truly "bad news" and to avoid them when I see those "red flags" that Net and Cat discussed. However, both of these individuals are generally decent people. They had weak moments. And I'm not sure how one prepares oneself for that. Even though I am back with my primary, I have barriers up now - big barriers where none had existed before and while he has promised never to do that again, and I believe that is his intent - we've always been completely honest with each other - he could definitely have another weak moment. JMohegan, you're right about actions speak louder than words. So now I tread with trepidation and this makes me sad...

The herpes is making it very difficult to find a woman lover - only 10% of lesbians have this, only 10% of those who have it know their status and there's a great deal of stigma attached in the queer womyn's communities.

Rox & shy_slave, I understand the idea of trusting people within the BDSM community physically that you wouldn't trust emotionally. This is true for me because of the community code of SSC and honest communication. What is harder for me to protect against are those betrayals that one cannot possibly anticipate - that result from very decent people giving into to the human frailty that is common to all of us, rather than actions that result from obvious disregard or cruel intent. I don't know how to protect myself against this without completely cutting myself off, something I'm not willing to do.

shy_slave - I love what you said about this being an issue with all relationships, kinky or vanilla, friend or romantic partner, same-gender or otherwise.

I just wish it would stop hurting so much. I'm usually fine, but recently have been thinking about these things a lot...

Neon

please forgive the overlong post - it just came pouring out...

 

[shy slave]

Neon what a very difficult time you have been through with two people important to you.

I hope you are able to move on from such a time and I really hope he understands and appreciates how difficult it is for you to trust him emotionally.

It must have been a difficult thing to write about, yet you did so with clarity and without a 'poor me' attitude built into it.

It was a difficult and thought provoking post to read.

Thank you

 

[FurryFury]

Neon what a very difficult time you have been through with two people important to you.

I hope you are able to move on from such a time and I really hope he understands and appreciates how difficult it is for you to trust him emotionally.

It must have been a difficult thing to write about, yet you did so with clarity and without a 'poor me' attitude built into it.

It was a difficult and thought provoking post to read.

Thank you

I agree. I didn't know what to say about your post but Shy says it so well.

*hugs*

To you both!

Fury

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

When I had tried 'trusting' a vanilla man with my most secret desires/wishes/fantasies I had to stop long before I even came close to what was really hidden inside me. Their reaction to the small things I said, gave me red flags that I would not be able to trust them fully with who I really was, the hidden me.

I know exactly what you mean. And feeling they don't really want to know who I am that deeply creates a limit to the relationship. Even if it continues for awhile there are still barriors. Not barriors of my wanting to explore fantasies and him not being interested, but of him not even being interested in knowing what those fantasies might be. I'm not sure that's a trust broken exactly, but I think it leaves a lingering doubt on how much that person actually cares about who you really are.

Rox.

 

[neonflux]

Fury, shy_slave, thank you.

Rox and shy_slave, Regarding vanilla men and darker fantasies - until last night, my primary has also been hesitant to hear "too much." I suspect that a lot of vanilla men aren't willing to go down that road at all because they would be afraid of where it would take them. It's hard to look at, hard to acknowledge one's darker side. I think many straight men would also assume that knowing of a lover's desires requires that they then fulfill her/his fantasies. If you're a man raised with a sense of privilege, it's easier to ignore the person who calls your attention to this darker side, who expresses her/his desires rather than to face something you might feel uncomfortable with or be afraid of... I don't know if that is cowardly, but it seems so. It also feels disrespectful if coming from someone that you're in a relationship with.

My best friend (gay male), with whom I've always been able to share everything, really doesn't want to hear about my kink, either. It's funny because this hurts much less coming from him than it would coming from a lover and breaks trust less, as well...

just my 2¢
Neon

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Rox & shy_slave, I understand the idea of trusting people within the BDSM community physically that you wouldn't trust emotionally. This is true for me because of the community code of SSC and honest communication. What is harder for me to protect against are those betrayals that one cannot possibly anticipate - that result from very decent people giving into to the human frailty that is common to all of us, rather than actions that result from obvious disregard or cruel intent. I don't know how to protect myself against this without completely cutting myself off, something I'm not willing to do.


Neon

please forgive the overlong post - it just came pouring out...

Neon, I've read your post several times wanting to do justice to it in any reply I made. You opened yourself up about something obviously very painful for you. You put time and thought to try and share your experience and hopefully those of us that are seeking guidance for this issue can gain something from your words. I'm so impressed that you are trying so hard to work things out with your primary and saddened that there are barriors. But so understandable under the circumstances. Only time will get you past those. The hardest hurts are from family/friends and loved ones. But those are the same people that can heal those hurts as well. I'm glad to hear that even after all this you're not going to shut yourself off from them and still are willing to reach out. I hope that I can be as strong as you at some point as I know right now I have a lot of walls that make trusting people with my emotions very difficult. This is one of the biggest issues I have in forming a close relationship be it friend, lover, BDSM or not. I appreciate that you were willing to add your incites to the thread. They made an impact.

Rox.

 

[neonflux]

Rox, thank you. I think that you're right - it's those who hurt us who can also help us heal. If we'll let them and they will allow themselves to do the same. Sometimes it's difficult. I've also had that difficulty of letting down the walls during my life; probably what I most fear is really opening up to someone and then being abandoned. With my primary, the walls are coming down again slowy but surely. Last night he shared some of his darkest fantasies. He also asked me to tell him more about my kink and he didn't recoil at all. I actually think I'm lucky to have him in my life.

I also think I'm lucky to have found this forum. The varying perspectives and the support and kindness here, the opportunity to share, is invaluable and helps me put my own life into perspective.

Neon

Neon, I've read your post several times wanting to do justice to it in any reply I made. You opened yourself up about something obviously very painful for you. You put time and thought to try and share your experience and hopefully those of us that are seeking guidance for this issue can gain something from your words. I'm so impressed that you are trying so hard to work things out with your primary and saddened that there are barriors. But so understandable under the circumstances. Only time will get you past those. The hardest hurts are from family/friends and loved ones. But those are the same people that can heal those hurts as well. I'm glad to hear that even after all this you're not going to shut yourself off from them and still are willing to reach out. I hope that I can be as strong as you at some point as I know right now I have a lot of walls that make trusting people with my emotions very difficult. This is one of the biggest issues I have in forming a close relationship be it friend, lover, BDSM or not. I appreciate that you were willing to add your incites to the thread. They made an impact.

Rox.