Extreme bruising - a Dom's concern?

[Netzach]

To be fair, I've put black marks on girls that haven't shown up for 2 days after the fact. Depends. I know that deep bruising has sometimes had a long way to get to the surface of MY ass, lol.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to absolve this guy of all blame and put it all on the OP. I think it's just as ridiculous to make this guy into some kind of pariah.

 

[catalina_francisco]

To be fair, I've put black marks on girls that haven't shown up for 2 days after the fact. Depends. I know that deep bruising has sometimes had a long way to get to the surface of MY ass, lol.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to absolve this guy of all blame and put it all on the OP. I think it's just as ridiculous to make this guy into some kind of pariah.

Agreed, it is the responsibility of both, but still becomes difficult to predict and therefore guarantee as you, I, and some others have mentioned. Not much help locking the gate after the horse has bolted.

Catalina

 

[wicked woman]

I find this whole thread interesting.

I recall impact play with my then PYL , when it was important to me not to have visible marks so we discussed what i meant by visible and it was a hard limit. During warm weather, my extremities were off limits but during cold weather they were fair game. My ass was always fair game.

I couldn't pre-judge the extent of bruising on my body so I certainly wouldn't expect another to. That's why visible areas were off limits.

Also as part of our initial negotiations we both agreed to be responsible for our actions and acknowledged that accidents/unexpected results can happen. Didn't give him the right to be careless, which he wasn't. It was just facing reality.

As for the badge of honor comment, I've more than a few times heard pyl here comment on the pride they take in their bruises or sadness at seeing them disappear. I've been sad that despite the fact that I often bruise easily that it wasn't usually the
case with our impact play. So as a flippant reply to not reading major concern, I don't see a problem with it.

As for aftercare I dont see that as a given. Like everything else it's up for negotiation. Some pyl don't like aftercare and some PYL wonder why they're on the giving end and not the receiving end.

Interesting how some others have a different take on things.

 

[MsQuote]

For reference, it was here. Thanks for answering. So you think that someone can act in hindsight, as in you didn't feel anything went wrong at the time, but 2 days later you then feel he was an asshole and didn't act in a way you expected ad trusted him to?!! That sounds very unfair IMO, to say the least, and I would not like to be someone playing with you under those circumstances. What's to stop you consenting and then later, on reflection over a day or 2, deciding you shouldn't have consented or just are not happy suddenly and lay criminal charges against the person? Let's face it, you could charge someone with rape, assault, kidnapping etc., just because you decide days later you are no longer as happy as you were when you walked away from the encounter perfectly happy with how things had gone.

At the risk of changing/expanding my story as someone else had accused me of earlier, no, I don't believe in someone being able to act in hindsight. Play went well, was consensual, but I did safeword twice -- I considered it a learning curve for both of us. By no means would I consider filing criminal charges after the fact. I never alluded to it, would never think of it, and it would never hold up anyway. I was happy with the way things had gone and it was discussed between us the day after. I expected a bit of sting and redness for a few days, but not the extent of bruising that occurred. Except for one time, my first time when I was a bit too eager to play with a Dom, I have never had the amount of bruising that I did on this occasion. Ever. And, yes, I was pretty pissed at his response and lack of concern (for me and his continued ability to play safely and respectfully with me or anyone else). Could I have worded or communicated my concerns differently? Absolutely. But in my previous experiences, that kind of feedback would have been taken seriously (but not necessarily in a wussie kind of of way ;->). Also, the tone of his reply was 180 degrees from the depth of discussion and understanding we had previously on several different levels. My follow up to his reply, in which I more thoroughly described the bruising and my concern about making adjustments for safe play in a respectful manner, was ignored. As much as it pissed me off, I'm just calling it a classless blow-off. (Call me strange, but I always let anyone I've been in contact with after several meetings/discussions/phone calls/dates or even a first session politely know "I don't think we're a good fit." if they pursue me to take things further.)

I am not on a mission to do anything to you. That being said, I (and others) have found things you have said questionable, especially as you said you have previous experiences, and it is not typical for this forum to not call people on that. Sometimes on further explanation we see some clarification we didn't before, sometiems even become good friends. I suspect you originally posted believing you would have a lot of support and sympathy, but it didn't quite go that way, so next step is to make accusations toward those who do not agree with your POV. As CM said, his remarks as well as yours could be interpreted in text as flippant. Given you were happy when you parted way, I am sure he probably didn't think you were seriously concerned...why would he think otherwise? As CM also said, and I also some time back, if you didn't want visible marks and the bruising is on your butt, I'm not sure where else he could have risked marks so they wouldn't be visible...so where did he do you so wrong? Spanking and paddling are highly likely to leave marks, perhaps next time choose something that does not involve impact play.

Catalina

I respect other people's POV's and there are many in the BDSM realm. However, I've felt that some bring a tone to this board that can be interpreted as deliberately hostile and judgmental, That's what I take offense to.

"....perhaps they should get to know the person they intend playing with more before placing themselves in their hands...and once again, this comes back to responsibility." (An assumption that I hadn't done my due diligence.)

"Well if you knew they intended to do that, yes, it is still your fault in part, if not wholly. The OP knew what the activity was going to include, had safewords, was not forced...IOW, did not say they did not agree to any spanking or paddling, quite the opposite, they participated. If the concern about bruising was that great, why not elect for something which holds no risk of bruising when playing with someone new? To cry foul after the fact sounds too much like the antics in Shades of Grey, not the behaviour of a pyl with extensive prior experience." (Cry foul after the fact? Antics? Fifty Shades of Grey? ... That doesn't take a communications professional to see that as being deliberately hostile and judgmental nor is it respectful of other people's POV.)

"Honestly, it sounds so much like Shades of Grey I keep wondering if we are being taken for a ride." (See above.)

"As to Shades, I figured as I was commenting on it given what I had heard, I should read it to have a better idea of what it was really like. I was not impressed and this is very much like the tone of the book...."I will let you hurt me....oh you hurt me, you big, nasty, man...I'm running away from you because you are so bad and did what I agreed to". Unfortunately,I am sure we will see more people complaining in a similar fashion in the future as they run out to try and have their SOG fantasies fulfilled and find it is easier (and different) to read than perhaps experience." (Sorry to beat a dead horse with the analogy associated with me, but it keeps coming up.)

" I certainly didn't run to someone else and claim I was unfairly treated, nor was I that surprised I thought it unfair." (Already discussed ... several times.)

I understand how you feel about impact play, and I disagree. In my experience, whenever I've had concerns about marks (only one other time), my stamina before going into play (once), or hesitancy to submit to a particular activity (it's not as if most things are hard limits, but I'm generally open to making an effort), my concerns have always been respected. It's because of my two previous Doms (not including others I had only scened with once) that I learned about and place a lot of importance on safe, sane, consensual and respectful play.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ah, the blowoff after he got his kicks. What an English friend of mine calls "The boy disease."

I've had guys explain it to me and they seem to genuinely believe that their reasons are legit...

But its so self-indulgent.

 

[Redkate]

So he blew you off after he got what he wanted...

Yeah he's an arsehole, but aren't most guys? Doms included!

And yeah women can be bitches too.. I know I can be to some men.

Maybe all this comes down to you being hurt (emotionally not physically).
Just because a guy is a Dom doesn't mean he isn't an arsehole in disguise. A player maybe? Said everything he knew he needed to say to you to get you where he wanted and now he's pissed that you got the shuts about what happened.

If this is the first time this has happened to you, you're bloody lucky. I know it's happened to me before, in a vanilla incident so my physical pain wasn't as bad.

I still say put it down to experience and try and move on.

 

[JMohegan]

How do we know he "got what he wanted"? So many assumptions here!

IF her texts to him in the middle of the workday included a description of her bruises and clear message that she was unhappy about it, a polite apology was in order.

Beyond that, what does he owe her? Depends what the understanding was between them, and we don't know that. Note: mutual understanding. Not just one party's wishful thinking.

Stella, I see your "boy disease" and raise you "the girl disease." Expression of interest in a single session is not the same thing as commitment to a relationship.

 

[Stella_Omega]

How do we know he "got what he wanted"? So many assumptions here!

IF her texts to him in the middle of the workday included a description of her bruises and clear message that she was unhappy about it, a polite apology was in order.

Beyond that, what does he owe her? Depends what the understanding was between them, and we don't know that. Note: mutual understanding. Not just one party's wishful thinking.

Stella, I see your "boy disease" and raise you "the girl disease." Expression of interest in a single session is not the same thing as commitment to a relationship.

An exchange of information and afterthoughts after a good fuck is not a commitment to a relationship.

Nor is wanting to meet for a second fuck.

 

[JMohegan]

An exchange of information and afterthoughts after a good fuck is not a commitment to a relationship.

Nor is wanting to meet for a second fuck.

We have no idea if the OP was a good fuck. Or even if there was fucking!

That aside, I agree with both of your statements.

 

[DVS]

I think there are some people here who are trying to read something between the lines, in order to blame the OP for this. Why do we assume she's not telling the truth? It makes me sick that people come here for advice and get the third degree. It reminds me of a trial where everybody is cross examining the witness, hoping they will stumble and reveal a lie.

One time, I was asked to not leave any marks in a session. She was a bit of a socialite and couldn't have marks that showed, no matter what she wore. So, that meant no marks on her wrists or ankles, either. She asked if it was possible and I said it was. And it is, you just have to take your time and don't get out of control.

Even with a paddle, it's possible. I used a foot long by 5 inch wide paddle on her. It wasn't a thick one...only 1/4 inch thick but that's more than enough to cause a nice sting. I did this repeatedly and she said it was always difficult to sit for days after, with just a redness...no bruises.

There are times when it isn't easy because of medication or body type, but in the OP's case, I think the dom was just overstating his ability. From what she said about her bruises, I don't think he even attempted to not bruise her. I don't think it was the OP's fault at all. OK, what was her fault was trusting him to be a man of his word. But, you can't go through life without trusting people.

In my opinion, he was a jerk to say he could do something he obviously had no intention to do or wasn't able to do. And when she told him she was bruised, he blew it off like it was no big deal. That shows his lack of respect for her wishes or maybe he was just covering up for his lack of ability with the "badge of honor" comment.

If she had asked if it was possible to not leave marks and he said no, she wouldn't have wanted to continue. He knew that, so he gave her the only answer that would allow him to have his fun. In my opinion, he just wanted to beat her ass so he was willing to say anything to be able to do that and too bad, if she gets pissed after the fact. That kind of guy can't be trusted.

 

[njlauren]

People obsess about the bruises, about what constitutes visible marks and the like (and for all we know, the OP was going to a nudist resort *lol* and told the guy that, we don't know), about whether he went beyond the mark and to me that doesn't matter, I'll give the guy his due and assume that he tried to keep it within the limits (btw, whether the OP was scared during her time with him or not is irrelevant; I wasn't scared when the pro domme left significant cane marks on me when I said no lasting marks, either, was too deep in subspace, for one thing, and prob should have safeworded but wasn't in the headspace to do so).

The thing I think people aren't grasping is the OP had a bad reaction to what happened and he blew it off from everything the OP has posted. A dom/me doesn't have to give profuse apologies or even apologize at all, but if a sub has a bad reaction then there should have been some sort of concern IMO, simply saying "are you okay? Did something bad happen?" and the like. I have been around long enough and seen and done some pretty heavy scenes myself as well, and yes, aftercare is an individual thing. I don't think a dom/me has to do aftercare with every scene, some subs don't even want it, but if a sub has an issue with what went on, right then or two days later and reaches out to the dominant, at the very least they owe the sub a bit more concern then this guy seemed to give. From what the OP wrote, it sounds like he gave her the brush off, even if he thought she was being funny, it sounded to me like she tried to get him to talk later and he didn't bother........(I could have that wrong, but I don't think so). Sure, it might seem trivial to some people, what is the OP complaining about, etc, but the point here is people do have different reactions, and people can react very, very irrationally to this stuff, that doesn't mean it isn't 'real' or worthy of discussion. I have done sessions that have left serious bruising on my body, as ugly as I have seen in my life, I have done corporal scenes that included pretty intense whipping and caning, and it didn't bother me, I also have done a relatively light scene with a flogger that triggered something in me and I lost it, it happens.

The OP seemed angry because he blew her concern off, that she was upset about what happened, and all she got on here was people telling her she was full of shit, whining, etc....and that is wrong. She didn't say the guy was a pariah, she didn't say she was going to cry abuse, not once, but people projected all kinds of crap onto her, tried to find ways to show how she was just some silly cow who got some bruises boo-boo, and that is ridiculous. I think she had a bad experience with someone, that may not be a case of an 'evil dom' or anything close to it and wanted to see what people thought. Some people on here told her they thought she might be overreacting, but they did it in a nice way, others commented like myself that they thought the bruising might be not deliberate but that they agreed the guy seemed to be a bit too flippant and uncaring (which after all is a matter of opinion, one person's beast is another person's beauty). Cries of 'grow up' or accusing her of whining are uncalled for, and trying to put the blame totally on her is ridiculous and childish. People are defending the dom here like somehow that makes him sacrosanct, and that the OP was wrong for being upset since it was all her fault anyway, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen, and that is not great, if someone is upset you don't deride them for being upset, you try and help them work through it, as many people did, even those who felt the dom in question didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Netzach]

I think there are some people here who are trying to read something between the lines, in order to blame the OP for this. Why do we assume she's not telling the truth? It makes me sick that people come here for advice and get the third degree. It reminds me of a trial where everybody is cross examining the witness, hoping they will stumble and reveal a lie.

One time, I was asked to not leave any marks in a session. She was a bit of a socialite and couldn't have marks that showed, no matter what she wore. So, that meant no marks on her wrists or ankles, either. She asked if it was possible and I said it was. And it is, you just have to take your time and don't get out of control.

Even with a paddle, it's possible. I used a foot long by 5 inch wide paddle on her. It wasn't a thick one...only 1/4 inch thick but that's more than enough to cause a nice sting. I did this repeatedly and she said it was always difficult to sit for days after, with just a redness...no bruises.

There are times when it isn't easy because of medication or body type, but in the OP's case, I think the dom was just overstating his ability. From what she said about her bruises, I don't think he even attempted to not bruise her. I don't think it was the OP's fault at all. OK, what was her fault was trusting him to be a man of his word. But, you can't go through life without trusting people.

In my opinion, he was a jerk to say he could do something he obviously had no intention to do or wasn't able to do. And when she told him she was bruised, he blew it off like it was no big deal. That shows his lack of respect for her wishes or maybe he was just covering up for his lack of ability with the "badge of honor" comment.

If she had asked if it was possible to not leave marks and he said no, she wouldn't have wanted to continue. He knew that, so he gave her the only answer that would allow him to have his fun. In my opinion, he just wanted to beat her ass so he was willing to say anything to be able to do that and too bad, if she gets pissed after the fact. That kind of guy can't be trusted.

That's true about like 90 percent of people, but trust me not everyone, about bruising.

On one of the people I've played with who can never ever ever have visible revelations of paddling, any corporal shows itself. Like a big fuckin' scarlet A saying "I've been a bad boy". No matter what.

It's just one of those weird things. Having paddled umpteen point seven million asses in a very short career, you never know.

 

[BiBunny]

That's true about like 90 percent of people, but trust me not everyone, about bruising.

On one of the people I've played with who can never ever ever have visible revelations of paddling, any corporal shows itself. Like a big fuckin' scarlet A saying "I've been a bad boy". No matter what.

It's just one of those weird things. Having paddled umpteen point seven million asses, you never know.

Yep. And you can beat the same ass umpteen point seven million times with nary a bruise to show for it, and then on the umpteen point seven million and first (one-th?) time, said ass looks like an Appaloosa when you're done. There are no guarantees.

 

[naughtynjmale]

i have to agree hes an asshole,

who doesnt respect you

im sure you can find someone better

who gives you what you want and need.

 

[ouchfeelsgood]

MsQuote, it seems to me that there were 2 incompatible agendas in a single session: 1) he was an aggressive spanker/paddler, and (2) you didn't want any visible marks.

That said, however, I think the onus was still on him -- knowing your experience level and boundaries -- to do his best to avoid the type of bruising you experienced. And as an experienced "aggressive spanker", he should have been well aware that bruising doesn't always make itself apparent during or even right after a session. And given the circumstances, he shouldn't have caused you to safeword twice. Finally, your subsequent complaints to him about the severity of your bruises shouldn't have been answered with such a dismissive retort.

 

[MsQuote]

MsQuote, it seems to me that there were 2 incompatible agendas in a single session: 1) he was an aggressive spanker/paddler, and (2) you didn't want any visible marks.

That said, however, I think the onus was still on him -- knowing your experience level and boundaries -- to do his best to avoid the type of bruising you experienced. And as an experienced "aggressive spanker", he should have been well aware that bruising doesn't always make itself apparent during or even right after a session. And given the circumstances, he shouldn't have caused you to safeword twice. Finally, your subsequent complaints to him about the severity of your bruises shouldn't have been answered with such a dismissive retort.

Honestly, I wanted to put my personal experience behind me (No pun intended. ), which I have. However, I think the topic in general is worthy of discussing the responsibility and ethics of being a Dom and it's been nice to hear you and a few other Doms and men speak with reason on this subject.

I just have to wonder about the attack of the "Mean Girls" ("Mean Subs"?) on this thread who took the "suck it, bitch" attitude as if I had the audacity to complain about the scene being a bit aggressive and that it was handled badly afterwards. For the most part, I've never been with a Dom who would have instilled that kind of thinking in me or treated me in that way. I have been challenged, but I always felt safe and respected.

 

[ouchfeelsgood]

Honestly, I wanted to put my personal experience behind me (No pun intended. ), which I have. However, I think the topic in general is worthy of discussing the responsibility and ethics of being a Dom and it's been nice to hear you and a few other Doms and men speak with reason on this subject.

I just have to wonder about the attack of the "Mean Girls" ("Mean Subs"?) on this thread who took the "suck it, bitch" attitude as if I had the audacity to complain about the scene being a bit aggressive and that it was handled badly afterwards. For the most part, I've never been with a Dom who would have instilled that kind of thinking in me or treated me in that way. I have been challenged, but I always felt safe and respected.

Indeed, trust and the respecting of limits are the cornerstones of any power exchange scene or relationship. That said, there are many people who derive a certain excitement from having their boundaries pushed (me included -- in both giving and receiving modes), so long as it's done within consensual bounds. It seems to me that your Dom stepped over that boundary and didn't want to admit it.

 

[xssve]

Think I'm with njlauren in Post #86, it's not respecting a limit, even if it's a temporary one, for a particular reason.

Without putting too fine a point on it, I'd say, dump him, and I'm not one of those people goes around telling people to dump their lovers for the slightest infraction.

It sounds like he has no concern for your feeling or needs whatsoever, if you think that's hot, then c'est la vie, but if your feeling and needs are important to you, however mundane, then I predict a lot of confused letters to complete strangers on BDSM message boards in your future.

 

[MsQuote]

Indeed, trust and the respecting of limits are the cornerstones of any power exchange scene or relationship. That said, there are many people who derive a certain excitement from having their boundaries pushed (me included -- in both giving and receiving modes), so long as it's done within consensual bounds. It seems to me that your Dom stepped over that boundary and didn't want to admit it.

I say there's a difference between having boundaries pushed and boundaries disregarded.

If I were a Domme, I couldn't even imagine the responsibility I'd feel if I had to place someone else's trust in me with a paddle or crop in my hand. Thank goodness I'm not inclined that way.

 

[Daxaeha]

If there was a post that I skimmed over that answered this question, I apologize.

My question is:
(And I know you said you had to use multiple safe words)
Did you enjoy yourself AT ALL while the two of you were together?

I'm asking because it sounds like you didn't start to get upset about this until the bruising and the "rude" texts.
The way that it sounds to me is that the bruising was a little more humiliating than you were prepared for.

Had you not been upset about the bruising and still sent him the same messages and received the same response, would it not have come off as him maintaining his role?

Also, IMO
I saw that someone explained how to paddle without bruising which is amazing advice but the thing that's getting me is that people are complaining about having marks left after heavy sessions.

"I like to be roughed up but I don't want any marks. I also like to eat cake but I'd rather not gain any weight. I'm going to smoke but I just don't want to get lung cancer and while I'm at it I'm not going to wear my seat belt but I'm just not going to get a ticket/in an accident."

Am I perceiving this correctly?

 

[MsQuote]

If there was a post that I skimmed over that answered this question, I apologize.

My question is:
(And I know you said you had to use multiple safe words)
Did you enjoy yourself AT ALL while the two of you were together?

I'm asking because it sounds like you didn't start to get upset about this until the bruising and the "rude" texts.
The way that it sounds to me is that the bruising was a little more humiliating than you were prepared for.

Had you not been upset about the bruising and still sent him the same messages and received the same response, would it not have come off as him maintaining his role?

Also, IMO
I saw that someone explained how to paddle without bruising which is amazing advice but the thing that's getting me is that people are complaining about having marks left after heavy sessions.

"I like to be roughed up but I don't want any marks. I also like to eat cake but I'd rather not gain any weight. I'm going to smoke but I just don't want to get lung cancer and while I'm at it I'm not going to wear my seat belt but I'm just not going to get a ticket/in an accident."

Am I perceiving this correctly?

Your question was asked (just as disrespectfully) and answered in previous posts.

And, no, you're not perceiving this correctly. It's funny that Doms and men do. There's not that fine of a line between humiliation (during a session) and being completely disregarded and disrespected.

 

[Stella_Omega]

MsQuote, it seems to me that there were 2 incompatible agendas in a single session: 1) he was an aggressive spanker/paddler, and (2) you didn't want any visible marks.

That said, however, I think the onus was still on him -- knowing your experience level and boundaries -- to do his best to avoid the type of bruising you experienced. And as an experienced "aggressive spanker", he should have been well aware that bruising doesn't always make itself apparent during or even right after a session. And given the circumstances, he shouldn't have caused you to safeword twice. Finally, your subsequent complaints to him about the severity of your bruises shouldn't have been answered with such a dismissive retort.

He may have been experienced with aggressive spanking-- with the reactions of women getting paddled-- but perhaps not so experienced at being present to see the results. Lots of dudes like to fuck and leave, so to speak.

 

[DVS]

"Hurting and humiliating for kicks" is the original "S" part of BDSM. And "getting one's kicks from being hurt or humiliated" is the "M" part. Although we've layered other meanings in as well, those are still there.

Are you trying to call a D/s session the same as an S/m session? That's quite a stretch. This was not an S/m session.

 

[DVS]

I still stand by my original assumption that he either had no intention on sticking with his agreement on bruising or wasn't able to because of a lack of skill. And he knew if he told her that, she probably would have decided against continuing. He wanted to have his fun so he didn't say anything she didn't want to hear. I'm a man and I'm a dom and I know if I wanted to, I could have done the same thing and not worried about it. But that's when honesty kicks in and trust. I'm an honest person and value the word trust.

Maybe he never intended to play with her again and so it didn't bother him to act that way. Who knows what goes through people's heads. I've talked to men in the locker rooms, in the bars and other places where the women aren't around and I've heard more than one man state similar things. I'm sure women talk in similar ways, when they don't care about any aftermath coming back to bite them.

But, you just don't do that in a BDSM session. OK, let me rephrase that. You shouldn't to that in a BDSM session. But it does happen. That's why we do our best to discuss, set limits and even vet partners with the local group, if it's ever possible.

The bruising she describe sounds worse than what would happen if someone was trying NOT to leave bruises. And his reaction when she told him about them was not of shock but almost glee. He said she should consider them a badge of honor. Did he say he was sorry? Did he say he tried not to bruise? From my understanding, he showed no sympathy towards her at all.

This was a classic case of a guy who wanted to have his fun. It happens far too often and it damages the chances for those who are honest and respectful to someone's requests. We have names for people like that. Creeps, jerks, posers and assholes. If you ask me, she's lucky he even respected her safe words.

It just goes to show you that people will be people. When it comes to something we want, there are those who will lie and cheat to get it. Sometimes those get so good at lying and cheating that they can look you right in the eye with a straight face and tell you exactly what you want to hear, just so they can have their way. What's so difficult to understand?

This should be an education for those looking for a playmate. You really need to check someone out before you allow them access to your body. Unfortunately, it isn't always possible to check up on someone and trust comes into play. Trust is a very large part of the BDSM play scene. We have to trust that people are honest with us. It's sad when we end up suffering because we trusted someone.

 

[DVS]

He may have been experienced with aggressive spanking-- with the reactions of women getting paddled-- but perhaps not so experienced at being present to see the results. Lots of dudes like to fuck and leave, so to speak.

She said she didn't want any bruising. Surely he had talked to his past partners afterwards. I always do. And I'm sure he knew the results of those sessions, if only from their explanations. I don't give past aggressive spanking an out. If he knew he couldn't spank without bruising, or even if he wasn't sure, he should have said something.