Fake it until you make it?
- Thread starter Mr Blonde
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AngelicAssassin
Something Wicked
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Agreed. There comes a time when communication screws up more things than it solves. At that point, the partners need to figure out whether to back away from the tender area for a while to attempt a fresh perspective, or break the loggerhead with a frontal assault. i've seen success and failure with either option. Backing off doesn't make anyone a weaker dominant, and bulldozing forward doesn't necessarily make them a stronger one just as giving in doesn't make a submissive a doormat, nor a brat respectively. The result simply depends on the people involved.Netzach said:
Despina said:[hijack]This is one of the weirdest forums.
This thread's been practically motionless all day and then suddenly there are three consecutive posts within about a minute.
[/hijack]
I know, isn't it great?
Marquis, as long as we're on the "trademark moves that needs a brief but descriptive name" thing, right now I'm doing the extending-hands-and-wiggling-fingers-in-a-come-and-get-it-manner. Beeyotch!
Mr Blonde
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Thanks for the replies!
Regarding appearing confident for the sake of soothing your sub's personal fears: Have you given any thought to how unconvincing you might be? Many submissives see through posturing and come to resent that people thought they wouldn't notice someone's lack of experience. So are you really fooling anyone?
Regarding being an insecure whiner: Yes, people can overdo their "confessions" and become chronic wimps just like people can become completely detached from reality by losing themselves amidst excessive posturing. But those are extreme cases. I think we are talking about moderate amounts of "faking it" versus moderate amounts "confessing your weaknesses".
Regarding questions if I am serious: Yes, this is actually the way I live my life. For example, a couple years ago I was having some impotence issues. This was something I plainly shared upfront with my partners, but it was not a daily or weekly topic in those relationships. It was as simple as explaining the issue, what I was doing to resolve it and what they could do to help. If they had something to say, they spoke up; if not, they knew the gameplan.
Regarding appearing confident for the sake of soothing your sub's personal fears: Have you given any thought to how unconvincing you might be? Many submissives see through posturing and come to resent that people thought they wouldn't notice someone's lack of experience. So are you really fooling anyone?
Regarding being an insecure whiner: Yes, people can overdo their "confessions" and become chronic wimps just like people can become completely detached from reality by losing themselves amidst excessive posturing. But those are extreme cases. I think we are talking about moderate amounts of "faking it" versus moderate amounts "confessing your weaknesses".
Regarding questions if I am serious: Yes, this is actually the way I live my life. For example, a couple years ago I was having some impotence issues. This was something I plainly shared upfront with my partners, but it was not a daily or weekly topic in those relationships. It was as simple as explaining the issue, what I was doing to resolve it and what they could do to help. If they had something to say, they spoke up; if not, they knew the gameplan.
catalina_francisco
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Mr Blonde said:
Mr Blond, you keep bringing up the same points which have already been addressed. No one has said to lie about their lack of experience, quite the contrary I would say.
The question is are you going act as a dominant and stand there confident, show your inner strength and confidence. Or are you going to let your inner weaknesses take over. No one follows a leader who does not lead.
Showing confidence inspires you partner to feel more confident and the opposite can also be said. Of course every person is different and like I have said on many occasions BDSM is a unique individual experience, so it might be very well that for you and your partner this works very well.
Also I feel that your example about importance is not really a very valid one. Again you seem to imply that faking it would be faking an erection which is very difficult to say the least. But faking in this case would be to show confidence in your ability to deal with the impotence. Of course be honest with your partner and share your feelings, but at the moment sexual intercourse start deal confidently with your problem. Show your partner that you can deal with the fact that impotence has an effect on your sex-life, it makes it a lot easier for the partner and also for the impotent one.
This is basically the same approach for a sex scene, deal honestly and open with your experience levels, educate yourself and prepare thoroughly but when the moments comes deal with your inner fears and show leadership. A Dominant has to lead and not to be led.
Francisco.
Netzach
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lark sparrow said:
Thank you, exactly. I like to know what's on his mind, but I still expect my tea made. I know that 9-10ths of the times I ask him to get up in the middle of something he's doing he's not happy about it but he does it anyway without much complaint.
In D/s no one gets to do exactly what she wants to do according to how she feels at any given millisecond -- neither the bottom nor the top.
I'm constantly weighing what's going on -- if he's in the middle of a computer game, I'll tell him to get my tea, if he's in the middle of learning visual basic, I'll get it myself.
As regards the impotence example, I don't have an analogous perspective exactly, however penetrative sex has never been that exciting for me.
I always let playmates I choose to be sexual with know this, but I tend to do it in terms of "this is what you are going to do to get me off" even at times that I felt weird about that or somehow lacking. They don't need to know that in a D/s context. In a sitting around bullshitting context, sure I might talk to them about it. But I'm not going to approach it from that angle in the context of play or service.
Sure people will see through rudimentary chest beating and stupid games. Have you ever known me to intimate that submissives are stupid? Have you ever known me to even say that fetishistic clients are dummies?
I'm talking about making a snap decision on what you're going to do next when you realize you don't know what the hell you are going to do next.
I'm talking about finding a way to fill what seems like dead air until you decide what you are doing next. I'm talking about knowing what you want in a split second, and owning the decision you make even when you yourself are not sure it's the ideal decision.
This is not some cosmetic worry about "ratings" or "how good was I?" or any of the things you seem to paint it as. This is part of control and self control as I see it.
Maybe you've just progressed with fewer doubts and misgivings. Maybe you started later than I did, or earlier with fewer doubts or concerns, maybe you are less prone to self doubt. I've always worked in my art and writing through extremes of self assuredness and extremes of doubt, to the point where my artistic mentor said "you work from doubt to doubt" at one point.
Again, I'll assert that women are not trained into the dominant mindset very well in this culture, that coming to that sense of power is in itself more of a struggle and a process usually. We are encouraged very strongly to doubt, apologize for our opinions, self-negate -- this is well documented. There are a lot more nagging voices of question on the whole. However, I've met some MDoms who have as many misgivings and insecurities that they happily own up to.
Hell, I more than own up to mine. I've talked it out with mr. netz, all in all, disturbing as that may be, it's better that we did in the long run -- I'm not disagreeing with you that communication is important or honesty with your submissive. I'm talking about a basic self-control issue.
I'm simply saying that the time to do it is not when you have your submissive over your knee. If you've gotten that far, you'd better have your shit together. While that may only be one hour in your 24, for us it would be the most memorable and important hour, usually, and groundwork for the next 23 can be set there extremely effectively.
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bridgeburner
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Vanilla perspective here:
I spent a lot of my life afraid to take a position of power --- not because I didn't think I was capable of doing whatever the job required but because I felt it was somehow arrogant of me to believe that I should be in a position of authority and guidance over others.
The problem is that I am often the best qualified person to lead --- regardless of actual experience. When I don't step up and take that position of leadership what generally happens is that whoever gets that position inevitably utilizes my skills but does a less competent job than I would have done myself because they simply aren't as capable as I am.
So I had to learn to just get over the idea that I didn't have a "right" to be in charge. It isn't about who has the right, it's about who has the cojones to step up to the plate and make leadership desicions.
Case in point: just after graduating from college I was involved in a Summer Stock production that pretty much fell apart due to an ill-thought out initial plan and subsequent lack of leadership. When all was said and done, from a 30 member company there were five of us who thought we could do a better job of it.
Five people with equal degrees but varying skill levels. The first meeting was full of brainstorming and excitement but you have to work to make this sort of thing happen and we didn't have the time to act by committee for every decision because essentially that would have meant that everyone's ideas got incorporated to an equal degree which would have been a total disaster.
So, even though I had no more credentials than the others I asserted myself to make the decisions. Many of them were not pleasant and a good deal of the time I was asking myself "Who the hell do you think you are to be telling other people what to do?" I expected people to revolt at any minute, but when it came right down to it, because I'd stood up and made myself the Go-To-Girl, the others did come to me and my decisions stood.
These people knew for a fact that I had never run a theater company before. That I had never directed a full-scale theatrical production before. That I had been in the same classes with them and learned from the same texts and professors, but because I was willing to assert my authority they accepted it.
I was 100% faking it. I'd never done it before, but I believed that I had the skills to do it. The hardest part was projecting that confidence when I had nothing to back it up except my inner conviction.
What I've learned over the years is that if you want to be in charge you have to maintain that attitude. If you are too self-effacing people start believing that they can wield the power better than you --- even that they should wield the power. Whether they step forward to officially do so or whether they assert themselves in a passive aggressive manner, once you've given up your authority it is damn hard if not impossible to get it back.
You can be too nice. If you ask someone every 10 seconds if they're okay -- not because you seriously doubt they're okay but because you want to assure them that you're completely open to them NOT being okay since you're so inexperienced and new at this and after all we're all just equals here and your thoughts and desires are every bit as important at every instant as mine are and it's my obligation to check in with you just in case you're unsatisfied or unsure or.......You've just alerted them to the idea that maybe they're really NOT okay and you've completely abdicated your authority.
This says to the subordinate party that they shouldn't trust your authority because you don't trust your authority.
-B
I spent a lot of my life afraid to take a position of power --- not because I didn't think I was capable of doing whatever the job required but because I felt it was somehow arrogant of me to believe that I should be in a position of authority and guidance over others.
The problem is that I am often the best qualified person to lead --- regardless of actual experience. When I don't step up and take that position of leadership what generally happens is that whoever gets that position inevitably utilizes my skills but does a less competent job than I would have done myself because they simply aren't as capable as I am.
So I had to learn to just get over the idea that I didn't have a "right" to be in charge. It isn't about who has the right, it's about who has the cojones to step up to the plate and make leadership desicions.
Case in point: just after graduating from college I was involved in a Summer Stock production that pretty much fell apart due to an ill-thought out initial plan and subsequent lack of leadership. When all was said and done, from a 30 member company there were five of us who thought we could do a better job of it.
Five people with equal degrees but varying skill levels. The first meeting was full of brainstorming and excitement but you have to work to make this sort of thing happen and we didn't have the time to act by committee for every decision because essentially that would have meant that everyone's ideas got incorporated to an equal degree which would have been a total disaster.
So, even though I had no more credentials than the others I asserted myself to make the decisions. Many of them were not pleasant and a good deal of the time I was asking myself "Who the hell do you think you are to be telling other people what to do?" I expected people to revolt at any minute, but when it came right down to it, because I'd stood up and made myself the Go-To-Girl, the others did come to me and my decisions stood.
These people knew for a fact that I had never run a theater company before. That I had never directed a full-scale theatrical production before. That I had been in the same classes with them and learned from the same texts and professors, but because I was willing to assert my authority they accepted it.
I was 100% faking it. I'd never done it before, but I believed that I had the skills to do it. The hardest part was projecting that confidence when I had nothing to back it up except my inner conviction.
What I've learned over the years is that if you want to be in charge you have to maintain that attitude. If you are too self-effacing people start believing that they can wield the power better than you --- even that they should wield the power. Whether they step forward to officially do so or whether they assert themselves in a passive aggressive manner, once you've given up your authority it is damn hard if not impossible to get it back.
You can be too nice. If you ask someone every 10 seconds if they're okay -- not because you seriously doubt they're okay but because you want to assure them that you're completely open to them NOT being okay since you're so inexperienced and new at this and after all we're all just equals here and your thoughts and desires are every bit as important at every instant as mine are and it's my obligation to check in with you just in case you're unsatisfied or unsure or.......You've just alerted them to the idea that maybe they're really NOT okay and you've completely abdicated your authority.
This says to the subordinate party that they shouldn't trust your authority because you don't trust your authority.
-B
sunfox
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bridgeburner said:
This is exactly what I was thinking of when I started reading this thread, but I can't say it like bridgeburner did.
Thanks. Straightforward and clearly stated. It's not 'lying'.. it's not 'being dishonest'. It's projecting confidence while you see if you can do what your heart/mind is telling you that you can accomplish.
AngelicAssassin
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Geez bb ... give me deja vu
Did i forget to mention this was Kathryn's directorial debut, on an indie project before indie was cool, and she had all of a 6 million dollar budget? Nevermind she had three hot shots at the time, that the producer gave her three days to see if she could actually direct what she wrote, and that the sets in Oklahoma had disappeared in a freak torrential downpour.
It doesn't matter. She crafted a gem, had the performers eating out of her hand, and the producers eager to see what she could come up with next.
She followed with Blue Steel, and Point Break. The woman excels at getting your attention with what looks like the typical action movie, then gets inside your head to spin you in circles. To this day, Bill and Lance want to do a sequel/prequel/whatever she can muster with Near Dark.
To this day, she maintains a sly smiling "Maybe."
Faked it? Maybe. Successful? Bet your ass. John Parr's "Naughty Naughty" plays as they enter a rundown bar. What else need be said.
Your example reminded me of an interview with Kathryn Bigelow. She wrote and directed a little movie called Near Dark. Lance Henriksen, Bill Paxton, and Jenette Goldstein had just come off of Aliens. All of them saw the script individually, and none of them said diddly to the other about it, until after speaking to Kathryn.bridgeburner said:
Did i forget to mention this was Kathryn's directorial debut, on an indie project before indie was cool, and she had all of a 6 million dollar budget? Nevermind she had three hot shots at the time, that the producer gave her three days to see if she could actually direct what she wrote, and that the sets in Oklahoma had disappeared in a freak torrential downpour.
It doesn't matter. She crafted a gem, had the performers eating out of her hand, and the producers eager to see what she could come up with next.
She followed with Blue Steel, and Point Break. The woman excels at getting your attention with what looks like the typical action movie, then gets inside your head to spin you in circles. To this day, Bill and Lance want to do a sequel/prequel/whatever she can muster with Near Dark.
To this day, she maintains a sly smiling "Maybe."
Faked it? Maybe. Successful? Bet your ass. John Parr's "Naughty Naughty" plays as they enter a rundown bar. What else need be said.
bridgeburner
threadkiller
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Ah, one of my favorite films not least of all because I could sit and listen to Lance Henriksen every hour of the day.
Hmmm....it's been awhile since I saw this one. I'll have to pick it up again.
-B
rosco rathbone
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AngelicAssassin said:
Yeah---sometimes it takes a bit of flair to go with the full frontal assault, have it fail , then gracefully morph into the "back away". Never let them see you sweat!
AngelicAssassin
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He plays bad guys well. Liked him as Torquemada and Dutch Schultz.bridgeburner said:
That or blind them with yours.rosco rathbone said:
Slut_loves_pain
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as I wittily and truthfully responded
when asked by my Partner my previous experience... I said 'lots... I've read about it all'
I totally agree with the person who said the Dominant should not be sharing their insecurities with their sub regarding BDSM stuff... I've had it done to me and it shatters the whole experience for at least a fortnight afterwards because I am worried that He will feel uncomfortable or like I am asking Him to go too far.
when asked by my Partner my previous experience... I said 'lots... I've read about it all'
I totally agree with the person who said the Dominant should not be sharing their insecurities with their sub regarding BDSM stuff... I've had it done to me and it shatters the whole experience for at least a fortnight afterwards because I am worried that He will feel uncomfortable or like I am asking Him to go too far.
rosco rathbone
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bridgeburner said:
I liked him as the pervy triggerman in Straw Dogs .
I got Near Dark confused with Pitch Black ; which is one of the finest post-Alien sci-fi/horror films.
AngelicAssassin
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Try the follow up and suspend a little belief. A couple of scenes in particular scream domination and submission. "Jack" becomes a grown woman with an attitude, after having faked it until she made it. No way in hell Riddick didn't "gather a little wood" in their first re-encounter on Crematoria.Marquis said:
