Feedback exchange?

[AlinaX]

Some readers are very quick to perceive racism where none is intended. I think especially in the US, for a white writer to write (or not write) black characters it's a minefield.

I wrote a story once describing someone's features as Oriental and was told, rather to my surprise, that this was bad and that I should use Asian - which to my mind really would be problematic. Culture and acceptable language vary so widely that it's safer to avoid anything that even hints at cultural stereotyping.

Gender issues are touchy with some as well, but they're less of a powder keg. I've had comments here bitching about the inclusion of trans and non-binary characters, but I've also had comments welcoming them.

 

[Ginlover]

Thank you Yukonnights for the link

DelNovo I've read the first page of your popular First Time story. I realise from your comment above you feel any writers using editors are putting out a team effort and not respected writers in their own right so you might not feel my opinion is valid as I have editors and people to check facts and language in my stories but for what its worth here is my first gut reaction.

You keep the narrator consistent, using a deep third person point of view. I like this style as it let's a reader see their emotional reaction to events as they unfold.

You like detail but often drive a point home to the reader. In the early opening you introduce the main character.

They always treat me like a fucking idiot.*"I know! I'm not stupid!" he yelled back.

Here you have his thoughts he is not an idiot and then says he is not an idiot. You say the same thing twice, his words conveyed his thoughts with out having to also tell the reader he is not happy. As a style to really drive an important point home it can be effective but you do it a lot in the first page. Trust your writing and the reader not to need to be so hand held you drive every point home twice.


You warn at the start there is lots or characters. Well by the end of the first page I knew lots of names, heights and weights of the numerous characters you introduced. I know it's common in writing on here but in life I rarely look at someone and think
'6 foot 2 about 250 lb' I tend to go with ' he towers over me and is built like a brick shit house'

The second allows the reader to visualise your character but give their imagination the opportunity to fill in the gaps as to what a brick shit house built man looks like. Letting the readers imagination do that is often more engaging than providing a police photo fit description.

The cash register part lost me. Masses of numbers and details as to which would be open on different days. I've not read on to see how vital this level of detail is necessary as the story unfolds but my god is there a lot of details
I got lost and gave up trying to picture it as you mentioned yet another number and location

The front end comprised sixteen cash registers in a straight horizontal line, and the location of a register relative to the main portal into the front end and the two exit doors determined how many customers tended to pass through that register in the course of a day. Assignment to 9 or 12 meant that the cashier would never get bored all day, and generally the first four registers and register 16 remained closed. Those registers only saw use during busy season, which arrived about two weeks in advance of Thanksgiving.

If I was editing this page I'd probably halve the number of words, reduce the mass of people introduced and let the reader learn in detail just two or three characters. Let the others develop more organically in the background.

 

[DelNovo]

Thank you Yukonnights for the link

DelNovo I've read the first page of your popular First Time story. I realise from your comment above you feel any writers using editors are putting out a team effort and not respected writers in their own right so you might not feel my opinion is valid as I have editors and people to check facts and language in my stories but for what its worth here is my first gut reaction.

I never said they're not respectable writers. Think of it this way - of the people who can "do", only some can "teach". Anyone who'd offer constructive feedback or editing would have to be able to teach. A writer who feels the need to have a team of editors, in a fictional work of this type, seems to be displaying lack of confidence in his/her writing. I think of it as similar to someone who still needs piano lessons teaching piano lessons. That gives me cognitive dissonance.

Of course, I could be wrong. That was just my first thought.

They always treat me like a fucking idiot.*"I know! I'm not stupid!" he yelled back.

Here you have his thoughts he is not an idiot and then says he is not an idiot. You say the same thing twice, his words conveyed his thoughts with out having to also tell the reader he is not happy. As a style to really drive an important point home it can be effective but you do it a lot in the first page. Trust your writing and the reader not to need to be so hand held you drive every point home twice.

After considering an alternative based upon what you said, I rejected it. If he just responded, the notion that this has been a long-standing pattern would not have been conveyed, and I want that in there. I recognize that I can be verbose, but I guess I'm kind of Dickensian in that this must be distinctly understood or nothing wonderful can come of the story I'm going to relate. (Check out the first few paragraphs of A Christmas Carol. Talk about repetition!)

Personally, when I'm reading a story, I don't like ambiguity in the story's premise or the development of characters. I try to read my stories from an outside reader's perspective when I edit, and I have my wife read them for that purpose too.

You warn at the start there is lots or characters.

That's to turn off people who are just looking for a quick thrill. I'd hate to be down-voted because the story turns out to have been too long or too detailed or whatever, without there having been forewarning.

Well by the end of the first page I knew lots of names, heights and weights of the numerous characters you introduced. I know it's common in writing on here but in life I rarely look at someone and think
'6 foot 2 about 250 lb' I tend to go with ' he towers over me and is built like a brick shit house'

Maybe, but I've estimated that the average Lit page is about 4,000 words. That makes it around 13-15 standard book pages. In a sex story, it seems that being able to envision the characters from the start is a good thing.

The second allows the reader to visualise your character but give their imagination the opportunity to fill in the gaps as to what a brick shit house built man looks like. Letting the readers imagination do that is often more engaging than providing a police photo fit description.

Not a bad suggestion, but I thought that I was already leaving enough to the imagination. I rejected many other possibilities in my own mind - many that were more descriptive - before choosing the ones I chose.

The cash register part lost me. Masses of numbers and details as to which would be open on different days. I've not read on to see how vital this level of detail is necessary as the story unfolds but my god is there a lot of details
I got lost and gave up trying to picture it as you mentioned yet another number and location.

I had to lean heavily on the "work" aspect of it because I submitted it as part of a work-themed contest. Besides, I just like detailed descriptions. I felt that this would be relevant throughout the story. If you read further, let me know if you still think that it was not helpful for me to describe the cash register area to that level of detail.

If I was editing this page I'd probably halve the number of words, reduce the mass of people introduced and let the reader learn in detail just two or three characters. Let the others develop more organically in the background.

One of the things I don't particularly like when I read stories on this site is when it is plainly obvious in the very beginning who are the man and woman who'll be having sex. I designed this story so that it wouldn't be obvious at first. My first three stories made it fairly obvious, fairly early, and I wanted to move away from that.

I try to base my stories on the styles of other authors I've read. They seem to give vivid and detailed descriptions of a lot of stuff, right off the bat, and I like that. I can see why some people wouldn't, especially on a site like this, but I like it. I think that every character I put into the story has a purpose, and sometimes their purposes don't get fully revealed until later on. I did that intentionally.

One of the tenets I try to hold to is "don't tell them; show them". I like to paint a picture with words, and doing so requires a lot of description. I know that that would drop me out of contention for any reader who prefers short stories. But, all they'd have to do is what I always do - scroll down to the bottom and check how many pages the story is before starting to read it. (Personally, I've never found a one-page story worth reading, and it's hit and miss for two-pagers. The best stuff, in my opinion anyway, is always three pages or more, or split into chapters so that it ends up being a long story. I couldn't split this one into chapters because of the rules of the contest.)

I'd be interested to know if you'd still hold to everything you said, after you finish the story. Feel free to take it at your own pace, and if you'd rather continue this conversation over PM, go for it.

 

[Ginlover]

I never said they're not respectable writers. Think of it this way - of the people who can "do", only some can "teach". Anyone who'd offer constructive feedback or editing would have to be able to teach. A writer who feels the need to have a team of editors, in a fictional work of this type, seems to be displaying lack of confidence in his/her writing. I think of it as similar to someone who still needs piano lessons teaching piano lessons. That gives me cognitive dissonance.

Of course, I could be wrong. That was just my first thought.

An Olympic athlete still has a coach
A eminent scientist still has his work reviewed by a team of peers
A world class surgeon is still required to undertake many hours training a year to maintain their registration
An oscar winning actor thanks a large team for their success
I compete nationally and I have a coach and I expect my coach to also still be developing and progressing so in your piano example I would not frown upon someone still receiving teaching or training

I could be wrong; just my first thoughts.

A dyslexic middle age woman who has never been to a professional dungeon needs editors and is not ashamed to admit it massively improves her writing. If you ever work with a professional publisher you'll find they edit work too, it's kinda a relatively normal practice unless you self publish.

Dyslexic middle age writers who apparently have no confidence in their writing skills, also tend to not keep reading a story if they become so lost in the first page they've given up trying to remember everyone's name, weight and location in the scene. But also they tend not to be enthusiastic in offering to help if they feel someone is being condescending about their own skill level and aggressively protective regarding any feedback that they had earlier requested. It makes middle aged dyslexic writers become passive aggressive in response and stop reading.

 

[SisterJezabel]

Dyslexic middle age writers who apparently have no confidence in their writing skills, also tend to not keep reading a story if they become so lost in the first page they've given up trying to remember everyone's name, weight and location in the scene. But also they tend not to be enthusiastic in offering to help if they feel someone is being condescending about their own skill level and aggressively protective regarding any feedback that they had earlier requested. It makes middle aged dyslexic writers become passive aggressive in response and stop reading.

You've summed up my thoughts very well. A good friend of mine is a world class orthopedic surgeon. He is always asking for second opinions from colleagues as well as those under him like us mere nurses.

To be honest DelNovo, I read the first page of this story too and when I saw there were 20 or so more I gave up. There was no way I was going to continue no matter what pace I took. You have been offered some feedback after asking for it and then when people have given it you have told us we are all wrong.

Also for inclusivity, I've grown up in a metric system and pounds mean very little to me. I get feet and inches just, but not weight in pounds, except for newborns! Also I don't get bra sizes that are expressed as 32, 38 etc. I get the cup system, but would rather read about breasts that he could hardly contain in his hands

Also, for general feedback, most women can't take more than 7 or 8 inches of cock unless they have had a full hysterectomy with removal of the cervix. If I read one more story with a 12" cock balls deep in her tiny pussy, usually a girl who is less than 5' tall and weighs as much as most middle school kids...

 

[DelNovo]

An Olympic athlete still has a coach
A eminent scientist still has his work reviewed by a team of peers
A world class surgeon is still required to undertake many hours training a year to maintain their registration
An oscar winning actor thanks a large team for their success
I compete nationally and I have a coach and I expect my coach to also still be developing and progressing so in your piano example I would not frown upon someone still receiving teaching or training

I could be wrong; just my first thoughts.

You seem to be proving my point. A coach; one coach, not a team of coaches. The team of peers reviewing work is because the industry requires it, and also because mistakes in such work can torpedo the entire study. The actor may thank a whole team of people but there's only one director (maybe two if there's an assistant director) telling him/her how to act. You have one coach, and even if you want your coach to be developing, he/she probably has only one coach or teacher.

A dyslexic middle age woman who has never been to a professional dungeon needs editors and is not ashamed to admit it massively improves her writing. If you ever work with a professional publisher you'll find they edit work too, it's kinda a relatively normal practice unless you self publish.

Dyslexic middle age writers who apparently have no confidence in their writing skills, also tend to not keep reading a story if they become so lost in the first page they've given up trying to remember everyone's name, weight and location in the scene. But also they tend not to be enthusiastic in offering to help if they feel someone is being condescending about their own skill level and aggressively protective regarding any feedback that they had earlier requested. It makes middle aged dyslexic writers become passive aggressive in response and stop reading.

I get the feeling that you're talking about yourself here. But regardless, again you pretty much proved my point. If you want to write dungeon-based BDSM stories and you've never been to that kind of dungeon, you will need editors and perhaps lots of them because you're not confident in what you wrote. Notice how I didn't say that such writers lack confidence in their writing skills, but rather that they lack confidence in their writing.

Reading through what you wrote, it hit me that I'm in the same boat with the Interracial stuff I've talked about. I have sought a team of editors for the AAVE/Ebonics stuff I wrote, because I have very little confidence in its accuracy. I did my best but I'm far from an expert in that field, writing skills notwithstanding. Therefore, I have no business editing similar work from other authors. I've seen such work from other authors and all I can think is, "Is this really the way it is?" - see, no confidence, and I'll freely admit it.

To be honest DelNovo, I read the first page of this story too and when I saw there were 20 or so more I gave up. There was no way I was going to continue no matter what pace I took. You have been offered some feedback after asking for it and then when people have given it you have told us we are all wrong.

Show me one place where I said that someone was "wrong". I have offered my replies to feedback and there have been times when I've disagreed, but that doesn't make the other person wrong; my first thought is that his/her preferred literary style doesn't match mine. It's like someone who prefers small economy cars vs. someone who prefers SUVs. Is either of them right or wrong? No - it's all about your taste and often about your needs.

Truth be told, I tend not to read really long stories on Lit either (amusing, I know, because I write really long stories), because I don't have the time. I also have to consider that if it's really good and fires me up, the timing has to coincide with when my wife is available to "take care of business", so to speak. That's by my choice, not by any specific order or explicitly stated desire of hers.

Also for inclusivity, I've grown up in a metric system and pounds mean very little to me. I get feet and inches just, but not weight in pounds, except for newborns! Also I don't get bra sizes that are expressed as 32, 38 etc. I get the cup system, but would rather read about breasts that he could hardly contain in his hands.

Given this and what Ginlover said, I went back and reread my first page. While I did state the height and basic build of several characters, I only provided an estimated weight for one. I'd have to reread the whole thing to get an accurate count on how many characters I provided a weight for, but my recollection is that the total is only three at most. The point in giving a weight for Pete, a very minor character, was twofold - it prevented me from having to state one for the main character, Jeff. I agree that too many numbers can make people's heads spin, so I try to avoid getting to that point.

I will agree that you make a good point about bra sizes. I hadn't considered the difference in sizing conventions between America and other countries.

But couldn't you learn how to translate pounds? I've read stories where weights were stated in kilograms and stone, and though I know how to translate kilograms, I had to look up how to translate stone. To me, it wasn't a big deal.

Also, for general feedback, most women can't take more than 7 or 8 inches of cock unless they have had a full hysterectomy with removal of the cervix. If I read one more story with a 12" cock balls deep in her tiny pussy, usually a girl who is less than 5' tall and weighs as much as most middle school kids...

Tell me about it. I always roll my eyes when I see stuff like that. Not long ago I read a story about a guy whose cock was 7 inches flaccid. It's like, who the hell has a cock that big? I've watched plenty of porn and I've never seen someone with a cock that big. I prefer stuff that's actually real. (In fact, that's why I found out about bra size conventions only days ago. I read a story where one of the main female protagonists had a 32F bra, which means that on a relatively small body, she packed gigantic breasts that, at best, very few people that size would have. In the name of figuring out whether or not it was even possible for a bra size like that to exist, I looked it up.)

 

[lovecraft68]

You seem to be proving my point. A coach; one coach, not a team of coaches. The team of peers reviewing work is because the industry requires it, and also because mistakes in such work can torpedo the entire study. The actor may thank a whole team of people but there's only one director (maybe two if there's an assistant director) telling him/her how to act. You have one coach, and even if you want your coach to be developing, he/she probably has only one coach or teacher.



I get the feeling that you're talking about yourself here. But regardless, again you pretty much proved my point. If you want to write dungeon-based BDSM stories and you've never been to that kind of dungeon, you will need editors and perhaps lots of them because you're not confident in what you wrote. Notice how I didn't say that such writers lack confidence in their writing skills, but rather that they lack confidence in their writing.

Reading through what you wrote, it hit me that I'm in the same boat with the Interracial stuff I've talked about. I have sought a team of editors for the AAVE/Ebonics stuff I wrote, because I have very little confidence in its accuracy. I did my best but I'm far from an expert in that field, writing skills notwithstanding. Therefore, I have no business editing similar work from other authors. I've seen such work from other authors and all I can think is, "Is this really the way it is?" - see, no confidence, and I'll freely admit it.



Show me one place where I said that someone was "wrong". I have offered my replies to feedback and there have been times when I've disagreed, but that doesn't make the other person wrong; my first thought is that his/her preferred literary style doesn't match mine. It's like someone who prefers small economy cars vs. someone who prefers SUVs. Is either of them right or wrong? No - it's all about your taste and often about your needs.

Truth be told, I tend not to read really long stories on Lit either (amusing, I know, because I write really long stories), because I don't have the time. I also have to consider that if it's really good and fires me up, the timing has to coincide with when my wife is available to "take care of business", so to speak. That's by my choice, not by any specific order or explicitly stated desire of hers.



Given this and what Ginlover said, I went back and reread my first page. While I did state the height and basic build of several characters, I only provided an estimated weight for one. I'd have to reread the whole thing to get an accurate count on how many characters I provided a weight for, but my recollection is that the total is only three at most. The point in giving a weight for Pete, a very minor character, was twofold - it prevented me from having to state one for the main character, Jeff. I agree that too many numbers can make people's heads spin, so I try to avoid getting to that point.

I will agree that you make a good point about bra sizes. I hadn't considered the difference in sizing conventions between America and other countries.

But couldn't you learn how to translate pounds? I've read stories where weights were stated in kilograms and stone, and though I know how to translate kilograms, I had to look up how to translate stone. To me, it wasn't a big deal.



Tell me about it. I always roll my eyes when I see stuff like that. Not long ago I read a story about a guy whose cock was 7 inches flaccid. It's like, who the hell has a cock that big? I've watched plenty of porn and I've never seen someone with a cock that big. I prefer stuff that's actually real. (In fact, that's why I found out about bra size conventions only days ago. I read a story where one of the main female protagonists had a 32F bra, which means that on a relatively small body, she packed gigantic breasts that, at best, very few people that size would have. In the name of figuring out whether or not it was even possible for a bra size like that to exist, I looked it up.)

Okay, I'm a guy so I won't try to contradict what actual women are saying here...but what about porn stars? They're exactly what you're talking about, many every petite and many of those guys are 8" and more...so 'taking it" can be done.

Now of course they're 'professionals' so maybe for the average woman its not the case and not enjoyable, and there are also women who are 'size queens' and like them big.

So if you're discussing preference, comfort of the average woman I'd agree. My wife has mentioned similar things when watching porn and a guy has an absolute monster cock...but I don't think you can say "unless you've had parts removed etc...physically it is obviously possible.

Besides, if we had to obey real life rules here...then get rid of all those Black bull cuck stories and anything in interracial where every black man has 10"

But just so you know I'm not arguing, I do agree with the ridiculous size of cocks and tits in some of these stories. I do "sizable" cock and ample breasts...things like that, let the reader decide in their mind what they think that would be.

 

[Ginlover]

Dang, SisterJezabel, you've gotta learn to translate stories. C'mon didn't you realise this is a requirement for engaging readers? Throw them out of the story and make them go get a conversion chart is a well known best seller top tip. ;-)

Incase any one is concerned, that's me being very sarcastic

lovecraft68 fantasy does allow for enormously endowed men/creatures. In a modern day human based story it's not necessary the size listed but the very impressive gymnastics the petite woman is then able to perform while impaled. Giant cocks are not as much fun in certain positions as average ones, and for rough sex I'll take average over I'm getting an infection after this sized.

 

[lovecraft68]

Dang, SisterJezabel, you've gotta learn to translate stories. C'mon didn't you realise this is a requirement for engaging readers? Throw them out of the story and make them go get a conversion chart is a well known best seller top tip. ;-)

Incase any one is concerned, that's me being very sarcastic

lovecraft68 fantasy does allow for enormously endowed men/creatures. In a modern day human based story it's not necessary the size listed but the very impressive gymnastics the petite woman is then able to perform while impaled. Giant cocks are not as much fun in certain positions as average ones, and for rough sex I'll take average over I'm getting an infection after this sized.

I agree and what is porn other than people playing out fantasies for pay, anyway. These aren't your average men and women engaging in real life sex. .

I remember when I was single a woman I'd been flirting back and forth with on adult friend finder asked me how big I was. I said I don't know I don't measure.

she says you don't want to know how big you are?

I told her that no woman ever screamed Oh my God that is not going in there, nor did anyone woman ask if it was in yet...so I guess I'm okay. My opinion is that men who write every character having a massive dong is over compensating.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I never said they're not respectable writers. Think of it this way - of the people who can "do", only some can "teach". Anyone who'd offer constructive feedback or editing would have to be able to teach. A writer who feels the need to have a team of editors, in a fictional work of this type, seems to be displaying lack of confidence in his/her writing. I think of it as similar to someone who still needs piano lessons teaching piano lessons. That gives me cognitive dissonance.

Not so much "lack of confidence" as self-knowledge, and awareness that different editors have different strengths.

I do professional editing work for a well-known non-fiction publisher - mostly specialist technical stuff, but also general English. They like my work well enough to keep asking for me. I still have three editors/beta-readers looking over my current Literotica series, because each of them brings something different to it.

 

[DelNovo]

Not so much "lack of confidence" as self-knowledge, and awareness that different editors have different strengths.

I do professional editing work for a well-known non-fiction publisher - mostly specialist technical stuff, but also general English. They like my work well enough to keep asking for me. I still have three editors/beta-readers looking over my current Literotica series, because each of them brings something different to it.

For me the first question would be, "at what point is the work no longer yours?" if you get it edited by a team of people. Though "possession" of the work may be of varying value to different people, and in different situations, I think of it like this. Imagine a car, that was designed by Joe Artist. Someone buys it and then gets different headlights and taillights installed at one shop, then gets a body kit installed at another shop, gets the windows tinted, new door handles, chrome and molding delete, etc. Eventually the car only bears remote resemblance to its original design, and the resultant work is more creditable to the shops that did the tweaking than to Joe Artist. Furthermore, the result is of little benefit to Joe's development as a designer for a major car company, because he already knows that only a niche market exists for cars that look like that. He won't be able to take the "finished product", as it were, and use it to help improve his design skills in the future unless he changes his career track and decides to become an independent designer of custom cars.

That was just the first analogy that came to mind, but where literature is concerned, I imagine a scenario where various editors would say various different things. I know this because I have a non-fiction book out in draft form, and I've had dozens of people look it over. I've done this because this book is "different"; it hardly matters if the end result is "my work" or not, as long as it is as perfect as it can be for as many people as it can be. I want it to be relevant to all people, so I need a variety of inputs. I have gotten many, and they've clashed on more than one occasion. Reader A loves something that Reader B would prefer to delete. Get enough readers in on that gig and eventually the finished product becomes just an agglomeration of other people's opinions and work. In certain circumstances that is desirable, but it doesn't strike me that it's desirable when the goal is improving your own art.

I used music as an example because I play piano. I can see having numerous teachers and coaches if the end goal is for me to play the music of J.S. Bach exactly as that music should be played given its historical context and what's known about Bach's original intent and styling. But if the goal is making my own music and developing my own style, who can tell me much about that? I know that's a thin rope to walk because I also teach piano, and I've had students who want to write their own music. I'll pick apart every last mistake in a song they play from a different composer, but when they write their own music, my approach is totally different. I listen to them play what they've already written and then provide suggestions based upon what they tell me they want from the piece, if anything. (If a student is totally satisfied with his/her creation, regardless of what I think of it, I let it ride as is.) Short of that, I don't tell them what to write in their own music because then it's partially my music. And if they try a suggestion I give them and they don't like it, I neither take offense nor insist in any way that they should keep it.

In conclusion, perhaps I am seeing why a feedback exchange might not work as well as I had hoped. It'd have to be predicated on people operating as I do, essentially being able to give feedback without the slightest taste of insult, and have that feedback dismissed without feeling the slightest hint of offense as long as reasoning therefor were stated. Already I've fielded accusations of essentially being stubborn because I didn't immediately accept and assimilate the suggestions I've received from others, in spite of how I did make it clear that I considered those suggestions and I stated my specific reasoning for having rejected any suggestion that I chose to reject. That wasn't enough, evidently. And then let's not forget the disparaging comments on my taste in sex / sex stories. "To each his own" apparently is not applied by everyone here.

It comes down to something I've known, and both benefited and suffered from, for many years. There's nobody out there who's like me. Were it not for the pesky innate desire of humans to be social, that would bother me far less than it does.

Mission concluded, I suppose. It'll have to be individual requests for feedback, as others have done in the past and some have suggested here, so that I can more easily pick and choose authors of similar temperament and tendency with whom to exchange feedback.

 

[GroverLang]

I remember when I was single a woman I'd been flirting back and forth with on adult friend finder asked me how big I was. I said I don't know I don't measure.

she says you don't want to know how big you are?

I told her that no woman ever screamed Oh my God that is not going in there, nor did anyone woman ask if it was in yet...so I guess I'm okay. My opinion is that men who write every character having a massive dong is over compensating.

I never specify a size in inches for either length or girth. I indicate (or hope I indicate) by being descriptive and letting the reader see it I their own mind. After all one reader might think 3 inches small and another 5 inches. Does someone with a 7 inch think a 9 inch is exceptionally long? It’s all relative (and to gravity when you’re finished).

Compared with mine anything less than 10 inches is small (waddya mean, that’s not true?)

 

[ElectricBlue]

Mission concluded, I suppose. It'll have to be individual requests for feedback, as others have done in the past and some have suggested here, so that I can more easily pick and choose authors of similar temperament and tendency with whom to exchange feedback.

That's the way it works best - spontaneously, unforced. You strike up a behind the scenes friendship and go where it goes. I've had two outstanding beta readers for several years who helped shape me as a more confident writer, both of whom have moved on with only occasional contact. I've written three collaborative stories with two different writers and started on a third but didn't finish because... busy lives. None of it was planned, it just happened.

Drop a story here in the Feedback Forum - folk will comment in far more detail than your comments file.

 

[Bramblethorn]

But if the goal is making my own music and developing my own style, who can tell me much about that? I know that's a thin rope to walk because I also teach piano, and I've had students who want to write their own music. I'll pick apart every last mistake in a song they play from a different composer, but when they write their own music, my approach is totally different. I listen to them play what they've already written and then provide suggestions based upon what they tell me they want from the piece, if anything. (If a student is totally satisfied with his/her creation, regardless of what I think of it, I let it ride as is.) Short of that, I don't tell them what to write in their own music because then it's partially my music. And if they try a suggestion I give them and they don't like it, I neither take offense nor insist in any way that they should keep it.

This sounds quite similar to a good editing relationship, IMHO. A good editor helps tell the story the author wanted to tell and convey what the author wanted to convey.

Some examples:

Pointing out a word that I misspelled.

Pointing out that I introduced a character as being at a party with his wife, and then a couple of paragraphs later he's trying to get a woman's number, and did I really intend for him to be that openly non-monogamous? (No, I did not, it was one of those glitches that creep in when I change your mind partway through about which character is doing what in a scene.)

Pointing out that a scene feels rushed (most often because I wrote it when I was tired and impatient to get to the next bit) or that it drags (usually because I lost track of what is and isn't necessary for the story).

Helping me distinguish between how I intended a particular scene or character to come across, and what I actually got down on the page.

In none of those cases do I give the editor license to grab the wheel and just start writing their own story. I'll look at their suggestions and think about whether they make the story feel better to me.

 

[AlinaX]

Does it make any difference to the story whether a character's boobs are 34C or 34B, or whether a character's dick is 6" or 7"? Who cares?

I don't know. I have fun with it sometimes, e.g.:

The size of the breasts she saw was so astonishing, her mind refused to connect them with her body.
"What the absolute fuck!" she screamed. "I'm a C cup, not a -, a -"
"JJ," Nurse Andrews supplied. "A definite improvement, I would say."
Rachel stared down at the offending mounds. They were unnaturally perky too.

or:

"Hi!" I said cheerfully. "I'm Ali, a gorgeous blonde with 42DD breasts and legs that won't quit."
Fiona gave me a baleful glare. "What are you - the narrator?"
"As it happens, yes," I agreed, unfazed. "What gave it away?"
"The fact that we're suddenly in some weird fantasy world where your hair is no longer Mediterranean-dark and your breasts are twice their normal size."
I peered down at them. "Not quite twice, I'd say...

 

[KeithD]

I really think this is the best approach because it's true to how people think. I don't look at someone and instantly know or care about their exact height, weight, and measurements. And I think dicks are pretty much "big", "average" or "small" LOL. Does it make any difference to the story whether a character's boobs are 34C or 34B, or whether a character's dick is 6" or 7"? Who cares?

Every new character being introduced with a description of their height/weight/cup size/shoe size etc is just immersion breaking for me.

It's how some people think, so another false sweeping generalization here. Active GMs most assuredly know and think measurements. So, it all depends on your target audience.