Feedback on my first story (brother/sister incest story)

[Bert_Fegg]

I'm not sure if the incest trumps the non-con, but he could ask Laurel. Likely there will be people displeased with it in either category, but them's the breaks.

I don't know - I mean I can't imagine anyone who gets off on rape being particularly worried that it's his sister he's raping - Also folks that are turned on by rape - Who gives a fuck what they think anyway?

 

[PennLady]

Trixareforkids:

Thanks for the feedback. I will take what you all write and re-read it with all that you've said in mind. Will check for long sentences and see if I can condense them. Also add some more details that show what I’m trying to say instead of saying outright.

Looking over these comments, a couple of things came to mind. One, I agree with those who said it was a little too passive. You did write of "was doing" type verbs, when you could just go with "did." That makes things feel more dynamic.

Also, this did catch my eye before but I forgot to mention it. You wrote something like he saw "the tanned legs of his sister." That's awkward. "His sister's tanned legs" would be a bit smoother, or you could change the sentence even more to something like "He saw Sarah's long, tan legs and [had reaction]."

As for Sarah being an ex-cheerleader -- why? Wouldn't she want to remain on the squad, with better access to the football team and/or other hot guys? It seems to me that being on the cheerleading squad would actually be her ticket to a lot of stuff. And it would keep her in shape, thus keeping her physical appeal.

 

[MausAss]

I'd seriously consider putting in in the noncon category - it is after all, a rape story first and foremost.

For me it's an incest story foremost which is why I put it there. I'm not saying that it doesn't belong in the non-con category, just that it would be misplaced there too. Either way I would have to put up a warning. I realize it's not the smartest thing to have readers expecting an incest story and getting a non-con story as well. It’s not right to trick them that way.

I'll think about it some more, but right now I feel like it would take a couple of more people saying the same thing as you do for me to move it.

Also thanks again for pointing out the error that you did.

 

[sr71plt]

I wouldn't be surprised if Incest did trump noncom on this Web site for categorization.

 

[PennLady]

I don't know - I mean I can't imagine anyone who gets off on rape being particularly worried that it's his sister he's raping - Also folks that are turned on by rape - Who gives a fuck what they think anyway?

I don't know, I'm just musing. People are funny with their hang ups. I bet there are readers who read non-con, but get squicked out by incest, so yes, they do care who is being coerced. I would also bet there are incest readers who are turned on it by it being consensual, so the non-con aspect would bother them.

 

[PennLady]

For me it's an incest story foremost which is why I put it there. I'm not saying that it doesn't belong in the non-con category, just that it would be misplaced there too. Either way I would have to put up a warning. I realize it's not the smartest thing to have readers expecting an incest story and getting a non-con story as well. It’s not right to trick them that way.

I wouldn't consider it tricking anyone, although if you wanted to put a note at the start, I wouldn't stop you. We're all (supposed to be) adults here, and if someone finds an element of a story they don't like, they should be capable of moving on if they don't like it.

 

[lovecraft68]

I wouldn't consider it tricking anyone, although if you wanted to put a note at the start, I wouldn't stop you. We're all (supposed to be) adults here, and if someone finds an element of a story they don't like, they should be capable of moving on if they don't like it.

Good point, a simple, "This story contains aspects of non consent" would save a lot of one bombs.

ETA I do notice "reluctance" in one of the tags, but I feel the story went beyond that. An let's face it people look at category and that's about it, the authors note will work better than the tags

 

[MausAss]

Looking over these comments, a couple of things came to mind. One, I agree with those who said it was a little too passive. You did write of "was doing" type verbs, when you could just go with "did." That makes things feel more dynamic.

Also, this did catch my eye before but I forgot to mention it. You wrote something like he saw "the tanned legged of his sister." That's awkward. "His sister's tanned legs" would be a bit smoother, or you could change the sentence even more to something like "He saw Sarah's long, tan legs and [had reaction]."

As for Sarah being an ex-cheerleader -- why? Wouldn't she want to remain on the squad, with better access to the football team and/or other hot guys? It seems to me that being on the cheerleading squad would actually be her ticket to a lot of stuff. And it would keep her in shape, thus keeping her physical appeal.

Thanks a lot for this comment. Will definitely change a lot of sentenced to “did” instead of “was doing.” I see how it will make things smoother. Yes, that's an awkward sentence, I will fix it asap.

Yes, the cheerleading thing. I either have to skip it that part completely or come up with a reason why she got kicked from the squad. It doesn't make sense that she left by her own device. Maybe she partied too hard and couldn't bother getting up for practice. Hence the boot.

You make some very good points. Thank you for taking the time to help me out. I didn't realize just how much work was done after the story was posted. I am very grateful. Thank you again, this will help me a lot.

All this feedback is making me very happy. It makes me realize just how much there is to learn. I didn't expect so much response. It's really helping me out.

 

[PennLady]

Yes, the cheerleading thing. I either have to skip it that part completely or come up with a reason why she got kicked from the squad. It doesn't make sense that she left by her own device. Maybe she partied too hard and couldn't bother getting up for practice. Hence the boot.

I'd advise not to over think this. For example, if she got kicked off the squad for too much partying, or for drinking and pot, she might be having trouble in other areas of school, yet you write that she's in no danger of not graduating. It seems to me if she is spending time drinking, screwing and getting high, she's probably not getting a lot of homework done, which would threaten grades and her eligibility, etc.

Is it important that she's not on the squad? It doesn't seem like it, so perhaps you're better off just saying she's a cheerleader, which is certainly something a lot of people find a turn on on it's own. Or, if it doesn't seem logical that she is a cheerleader, then just don't mention it at all; she can just be a hot chick. Sometimes simpler is better.

You make some very good points. Thank you for taking the time to help me out. I didn't realize just how much work was done after the story was posted. I am very grateful. Thank you again, this will help me a lot.

All this feedback is making me very happy. It makes me realize just how much there is to learn. I didn't expect so much response. It's really helping me out.

I think at some point we all learn that writing a story isn't as easy as we think it is, that when a story is at first finished, it's really only one step in the process. Now, I'd also caution you that you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try. When you get conflicting advice, and you will, you need to decide what serves your story and what doesn't, but that's all part of the learning process, too.

 

[MausAss]

Should have gone in non consent reluctance.
Your rape story(and the sister cumming does not get you off the hook it was a rape story and the idea a woman cums during rape is as reliable in porn as every guy having 10") brings the fantasy level down and in all honesty reminds us who have a "fantasy incest" kink what incest is in real life and that is generally rape and abuse.

If you were looking for "realistic" you hit it. If you wanted to appeal to readers then this thing should have been put in non consent where it belongs.

I'll give you credit though, in the brother you created one of the most memorable d-bag characters I've read in that category

I've heard about it being a soft category before and I suspect the non-con part have something to do with the low score. There's probably not enough fantasy in it to appeal to most readers. Of course part of the problem is the writing; I'm not letting myself off the hook.

I was looking for realistic, so I'm glad I hit it. So to make it realistic I would have to increase her resistance further and maybe remove the part where she cums. Not sure if I want to go that far.

I like the last sentence you wrote and I consider it good feedback. I want it to be memorable. He is a d-bag and it's always good to have a memorable villain.

Thanks for the feedback and thanks for reading the story. I appreciate it. I also appreciate the interesting discussion about which category the story should be placed in.

 

[MausAss]

Is it important that she's not on the squad? It doesn't seem like it, so perhaps you're better off just saying she's a cheerleader, which is certainly something a lot of people find a turn on on it's own. Or, if it doesn't seem logical that she is a cheerleader, then just don't mention it at all; she can just be a hot chick. Sometimes simpler is better.

Good points and I agree with you. She can just be a hot chick.

I think at some point we all learn that writing a story isn't as easy as we think it is, that when a story is at first finished, it's really only one step in the process. Now, I'd also caution you that you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try. When you get conflicting advice, and you will, you need to decide what serves your story and what doesn't, but that's all part of the learning process, too.

Yes I agree with this too. I'm not planning on changing the story into something it's not. It's a non-con story. I'll just try to please the ones who like that and the other can read other stories. I've never been a person who tried to please everyone, so this shouldn't be a problem. I do like to listen to what everyone has to say though.

You have given some very good advice in this thread and for that I want to thank you again. So thank you.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've heard about it being a soft category before and I suspect the non-con part have something to do with the low score. There's probably not enough fantasy in it to appeal to most readers. Of course part of the problem is the writing; I'm not letting myself off the hook.

I was looking for realistic, so I'm glad I hit it. So to make it realistic I would have to increase her resistance further and maybe remove the part where she cums. Not sure if I want to go that far.

I like the last sentence you wrote and I consider it good feedback. I want it to be memorable. He is a d-bag and it's always good to have a memorable villain.

Thanks for the feedback and thanks for reading the story. I appreciate it. I also appreciate the interesting discussion about which category the story should be placed in.

Be warned though you make the rape more realistic it will lead to more flaming. Just saying, its your call of course.

I'd go with the warning this way if non con does not bother the reader they will keep going and people like myself will say "Oh, well no thanks" and be on my way. But the courtesy of a warning goes a long way in itself.

If you're interested check this out, this is one I did for a contest, the entire thing walks the non con line, but I feel I pulled it off and the score is good and the feedback is very interesting so if you don't read the story at least check out the comments.

http://www.literotica.com/s/that-damn-red-dress

This was my fav(next to the over the top trolls of course

Definitely disturbing - verging on erotic horror, except I didn't really find it especially erotic.

Still, it's a very powerful story and exceptionally well-written - I say this without being able to decide if I actually *like* the story - it merits 5 stars even if you don't get off on the semi-nonconsensual aspects of it (she didn't feel like she had a choice, after all; she had a figurative gun to her head, and I personally don't get excited by that imagery).

Ever see a movie that had a strong message, was acted really well and still made your skin crawl? That movie probably won many Oscars; this is the short-story equivalent. Read it

So there is a way to do what you did, but also get the reader by it, its all in how you get there.

 

[PennLady]

I was looking for realistic, so I'm glad I hit it. So to make it realistic I would have to increase her resistance further and maybe remove the part where she cums. Not sure if I want to go that far.

Be careful with this. Non-con is a pretty gray area, and plenty of stories slip through the cracks, but I believe Laurel's guide on it is that the person being coerced has to enjoy the experience to some degree, eventually, or the story will be rejected.

Rape is not permitted, just like underage sex or bestiality. However, like I said, things do slip through the cracks since only one person is checking the stories. So if you make this an out-and-out rape, you may have gotten realism but you won't be able to post it here.

 

[MausAss]

Good point, a simple, "This story contains aspects of non consent" would save a lot of one bombs.

ETA I do notice "reluctance" in one of the tags, but I feel the story went beyond that. An let's face it people look at category and that's about it, the authors note will work better than the tags

I was already on it. It was the first thing I realized. It is in the first update. I will make another one with all the advice I've been getting later, but that one is going to take some more time.

 

[lovecraft68]

Be careful with this. Non-con is a pretty gray area, and plenty of stories slip through the cracks, but I believe Laurel's guide on it is that the person being coerced has to enjoy the experience to some degree, eventually, or the story will be rejected.

Rape is not permitted, just like underage sex or bestiality. However, like I said, things do slip through the cracks since only one person is checking the stories. So if you make this an out-and-out rape, you may have gotten realism but you won't be able to post it here.

You're quoting the old rule. The new rule is its "tricky" and if the rape fits the story its okay. Seeing as the definition of non consent is rape than rape will fit any story over there? Pretty smooth way to talk out of two sides of the same mouth, no?

 

[MausAss]

Be warned though you make the rape more realistic it will lead to more flaming. Just saying, its your call of course.

http://www.literotica.com/s/that-damn-red-dress

This was my fav(next to the over the top trolls of course

Definitely disturbing - verging on erotic horror, except I didn't really find it especially erotic.

Still, it's a very powerful story and exceptionally well-written - I say this without being able to decide if I actually *like* the story - it merits 5 stars even if you don't get off on the semi-nonconsensual aspects of it (she didn't feel like she had a choice, after all; she had a figurative gun to her head, and I personally don't get excited by that imagery).

Ever see a movie that had a strong message, was acted really well and still made your skin crawl? That movie probably won many Oscars; this is the short-story equivalent. Read it

So there is a way to do what you did, but also get the reader by it, its all in how you get there.

I will check it out. I just thought the non-con parts fitted with the story I wanted to tell. Maybe I can take something from your story and keep the realism, but make it less rapey.

Be careful with this. Non-con is a pretty gray area, and plenty of stories slip through the cracks, but I believe Laurel's guide on it is that the person being coerced has to enjoy the experience to some degree, eventually, or the story will be rejected.

Rape is not permitted, just like underage sex or bestiality. However, like I said, things do slip through the cracks since only one person is checking the stories. So if you make this an out-and-out rape, you may have gotten realism but you won't be able to post it here.

Okay. I didn't plan to go through with it anyway. I just tossed the idea out there. It's not my thing. The resistance she put up is about as much as I can stand. Thanks for the warning.

The last scene is obviously the one that I get most conflicting advices about since it's the most controversial one. I will have to take a look at it again and then write it the way I want it to be and try to do it as well as possible. I have a lot to think about.

 

[PennLady]

You're quoting the old rule. The new rule is its "tricky" and if the rape fits the story its okay. Seeing as the definition of non consent is rape than rape will fit any story over there? Pretty smooth way to talk out of two sides of the same mouth, no?

Not necessarily. I read a story by Daniellekitten a while ago, and it included at least an attempted rape, although the rape was not the point of the story. It was pretty graphically described, but I didn't feel it was for arousal purposes, and I don't know if it turned into an actual rape. I do know the rapist got killed by the girl -- it was a nonhuman thing. But again, the rape was a small part of the story and was used to show what the NH girl could do (she didn't know she was a were, I don't think).

But that's just one story, I realize, and there are thousands on this site and as I said before, some will slip through the cracks. If anyone has a serious problem with this rule, fuzzy as it is, they are free to post elsewhere.

I can't help it if Laurel defines non-con as "eventual consent." I do think in the case of Maus' story, if he removes the element of the sister enjoying it, she might axe the story.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not necessarily. I read a story by Daniellekitten a while ago, and it included at least an attempted rape, although the rape was not the point of the story. It was pretty graphically described, but I didn't feel it was for arousal purposes, and I don't know if it turned into an actual rape. I do know the rapist got killed by the girl -- it was a nonhuman thing. But again, the rape was a small part of the story and was used to show what the NH girl could do (she didn't know she was a were, I don't think).

But that's just one story, I realize, and there are thousands on this site and as I said before, some will slip through the cracks. If anyone has a serious problem with this rule, fuzzy as it is, they are free to post elsewhere.

I can't help it if Laurel defines non-con as "eventual consent." I do think in the case of Maus' story, if he removes the element of the sister enjoying it, she might axe the story.

But the point of your post-that I take-is it was not written for titillation, but as a plot device(like girl with a dragon tattoo) and I can agree with that f it moves a story

But in non con it is written to arouse and that is what they stroke to, its their kink so over there its not a horrifying act, but what they get off to which is the pain and suffering of women. There is nothing "tricky" about your example or my point about it.

The only tricky thing is trying to convince someone down the line that you did not allow rape stories when you have a non consent section.

LS does not allow rape stories. They have a "rough sex" section instead and it must be consensual. That's how a rape rule would be enforced if a site really wanted one, there would be no category to encourage authors to post them.

 

[PennLady]

But the point of your post-that I take-is it was not written for titillation, but as a plot device(like girl with a dragon tattoo) and I can agree with that f it moves a story

Well, true, but some people probably did find that arousing. Can't help that.

The only tricky thing is trying to convince someone down the line that you did not allow rape stories when you have a non consent section.

LS does not allow rape stories. They have a "rough sex" section instead and it must be consensual. That's how a rape rule would be enforced if a site really wanted one, there would be no category to encourage authors to post them.

I don't disagree. But I also think that if you are going to post on a free site that gets you lots of readers and feedback, and you know that this rule is problematic, then you either post and deal with it -- perhaps report a story if you find it -- or don't and go somewhere else.

And it may be a thin line, but it's Laurel and Manu's line to draw. I'm not defending or attacking it, just observing.

You frequently say that although incest in real life is a terrible thing, incest on Lit is okay basically because it's generally all consenting and a fantasy. Non-con or rape is also an awful thing, but people still have fantasies about it, and in many (most?) of the stories on Lit, the non-consenting person eventually relents. It's fantasy. I don't see why it's okay for them to publish your illegal kink, which people can get off on, but not a non-con kink.

 

[lovecraft68]

Well, true, but some people probably did find that arousing. Can't help that.



I don't disagree. But I also think that if you are going to post on a free site that gets you lots of readers and feedback, and you know that this rule is problematic, then you either post and deal with it -- perhaps report a story if you find it -- or don't and go somewhere else.

And it may be a thin line, but it's Laurel and Manu's line to draw. I'm not defending or attacking it, just observing.

You frequently say that although incest in real life is a terrible thing, incest on Lit is okay basically because it's generally all consenting and a fantasy. Non-con or rape is also an awful thing, but people still have fantasies about it, and in many (most?) of the stories on Lit, the non-consenting person eventually relents. It's fantasy. I don't see why it's okay for them to publish your illegal kink, which people can get off on, but not a non-con kink.

I don't contest the right for people to have the fantasy and enjoy it. What I contest is the lie of having a "rule" that prohibits rape when you have a category that stands for it

Many people never look at the FAQ(and not like its easy to navigate anyway) so you come here and you say "I like to write rape stories, I wonder if they accept them? Oh, wait a non consent section, of course they do."

That is what I contest. Either remove the non con category or give up this offensively hypocritical sham that you don''t want them here and just flat out say they are accepted here.

laurel made that "Oh, yeah you write inces and that's against the law" crack to me. My reply was "show me where you have a rule that prohibits incest and I will never post another one."

The response was her never coming back to the thread and having her mod post the "tricky" rule and also say it can no longer be argued in story ideas, can;t be argued on a free speech site.

In few words I guess what I look for is "Own your shit" one way or the other, but own it. Its too much to ask in this case.

 

[PennLady]

I don't contest the right for people to have the fantasy and enjoy it. What I contest is the lie of having a "rule" that prohibits rape when you have a category that stands for it

...

That is what I contest. Either remove the non con category or give up this offensively hypocritical sham that you don''t want them here and just flat out say they are accepted here.

Again, I'm not really disagreeing. I'm fine with it either way, since it's their site and their rules. Also, I don't write in that category, so to a large degree, whether they have it or not, it doesn't affect me.

laurel made that "Oh, yeah you write inces and that's against the law" crack to me. My reply was "show me where you have a rule that prohibits incest and I will never post another one."

The response was her never coming back to the thread and having her mod post the "tricky" rule and also say it can no longer be argued in story ideas, can;t be argued on a free speech site.

They have a rule that prohibits rape, fuzzy though it is. I agree that a Non-con category undercuts that a lot, where reluctance does not. However, their line on it -- whether we agree or not, and again I'm not defending it -- is that as long as the person eventually consents, it is in line with their "no rape" rule.

Look, I pointed out that Maus' story is a thinly-veiled rape, and no orgasm on the part of the sister will change that.

In few words I guess what I look for is "Own your shit" one way or the other, but own it. Its too much to ask in this case.

But if you disagree so vehemently, shouldn't you own your own principles and not post here?

 

[lovecraft68]

Again, I'm not really disagreeing. I'm fine with it either way, since it's their site and their rules. Also, I don't write in that category, so to a large degree, whether they have it or not, it doesn't affect me.



They have a rule that prohibits rape, fuzzy though it is. I agree that a Non-con category undercuts that a lot, where reluctance does not. However, their line on it -- whether we agree or not, and again I'm not defending it -- is that as long as the person eventually consents, it is in line with their "no rape" rule.

Look, I pointed out that Maus' story is a thinly-veiled rape, and no orgasm on the part of the sister will change that.



But if you disagree so vehemently, shouldn't you own your own principles and not post here?

No, my stance is better served, to me anyway, by making this remarks and calling it out for what it is.

But beyond that you keep speaking of what Laurel said in the thinly veiled rule about "victim must enjoy it" Okay fine. but.....

There are uncountable stories here where they never do. Stories of women kidnapped, drugged and raped repeatedly some series are chapter after chapter of different gang rapes.

where is consent or enjoyment when one wakes up in a cell and is assaulted repeatedly? The story of the woman raped over a copying machine having pens and pencils shoved in her holes while being raped.

Story after story of begging pleading, sexual slavery story where the idea of consent is what? they have been raped to the point they are so emotionally damaged that they no longer protest and just take it?

You say you don't read over there. I've made the mistake of key word searching things and checking out enough stories to make me twitch its a cesspool of pure rape and I refuse to believe they all slip between the cracks. Try reporting one see where that gets you.

So I get my jollies pointing it out and will continue to do so. Rape is money for her just as any other genre is and biz is biz. But as I go back to just admit it, period and stop lying because the feds who flag all these sites and stories are not going to buy the word "tricky" is it ever comes down to there being a crack down on it.

Underage is the only thing she cares about because its her personal platform, anything else is fine which is fine, but again stop lying like a child.

 

[PennLady]

No, my stance is better served, to me anyway, by making this remarks and calling it out for what it is.

But that has pretty much no impact, does it? You've been pointing this out for quite a while, but nothing happens. If you want to state your position, fine, but you're not doing much more than that. You're not a shareholder in the site. You can only vote with your keyboard, by not posting or not reading.

There are uncountable stories here where they never do. Stories of women kidnapped, drugged and raped repeatedly some series are chapter after chapter of different gang rapes.

If you find them, report them. You can't have it both ways, complaining that they post rape stories, and then not reporting them if you find them. I've reported a couple of stories over the years, and to my knowledge they have been removed.

All things you specify about those stories is pretty much why I don't read them. And you don't have to read them either. No one's forcing anyone to read anything here.

So I get my jollies pointing it out and will continue to do so. Rape is money for her just as any other genre is and biz is biz. But as I go back to just admit it, period and stop lying because the feds who flag all these sites and stories are not going to buy the word "tricky" is it ever comes down to there being a crack down on it.

I don't get how or why you get your jollies complaining about this continually when it doesn't change anything. How is it fun to keep hitting your head against the wall? I suppose I'm helping since I'm trying to debate it with you.

What do you care whether she fixes this or not, aside from it being your personal peeve? It's a free site. You're not investing any money in it; in fact, it might be generating you some money as people go to look for your e-books. I'll assume that's why you don't pull your stories and go elsewhere with your stories.

That's the problem with you pointing this out all the time -- it makes you look hypocritical. You complain, but you keep posting. If it bothered you that much, you'd go elsewhere.

 

[PennLady]

And wow did we hijack a thread.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Not free speech...

... can;t be argued on a free speech site..

Any site that has conduct rules, such as this one, is NOT a free speech site. If they allow some things but not others that's their prerogative but I personally would just avoid it completely.

In the case of this story I'd consider keeping the struggle but changing the dialog to make it more of a grey area as there IS a proscription against rape and as currently written it's clearly rape.

I was unaware of the proscription until now because to me ALL non-con sexual activity is rape and no mid-action change undoes that.