female circumcision (for subs)

[Pure]

lara asked, among several questions:

Isn't that pleasure somehow distracting and/or impure when what should be of primary interest is the Dominants feelings/pleasure?

Kant, a well known moral philosopher--some say, a great one--said exactly that. You performance of a duty, should be out a sense of duty; any 'pleasure'-related motive *detracts from the morality of the act. (If I may use a remote analogy, we question someone's apparently philanthropic act when we find he gave the money simply to reduce his income tax.)

(I'm aware of your sarcasm).

 

[Netzach]

Kant is not allowed between my sheets.

Safety and sanity are subjective, and the idea of happiness and fulfillment even more so.

This distrurbs me a lot LESS than young girls who don't get to evaluate the situation at all being given clitorectomies as a cultural mandate.

I think it obviously is not a widely practical thing, and it would require a huge amount of forethought and reflection. But, like those with amputation desires and a need to get rid of a digit, how is a *need* to become sexually completely focused on the other person less legitimate, if it's a need?

I'm not excited about the idea catching on as a trend in the SM community, but I don't see that happening. I'm not going to advocate ripping out the entrails or demanding the heads of those who might cast this kind of fetish in a D/s light, or see this as a logical conclusion in a certain D/s relationship.

 

[Kajira Callista]

lara asked, among several questions:

Isn't that pleasure somehow distracting and/or impure when what should be of primary interest is the Dominants feelings/pleasure?

Kant, a well known moral philosopher--some say, a great one--said exactly that. You performance of a duty, should be out a sense of duty; any 'pleasure'-related motive *detracts from the morality of the act. (If I may use a remote analogy, we question someone's apparently philanthropic act when we find he gave the money simply to reduce his income tax.)

(I'm aware of your sarcasm).

isnt that something you need to do with your mind? how does removing your clit improve your service? your mind is what allows you to feel the pleasure, why cant your mind block that as well if needed.

 

[TigerClaw]

I would not allow this to be done.

 

[Pure]

KJ said,
/how does removing your clit improve your service?/

I'm not sure anyone here said that; I expressly denied that this external alteration would affect sex drive. OSG *wondered* if it might permit a purer service (as I read her.)

 

[Kajira Callista]

KJ said,
/how does removing your clit improve your service?/

I'm not sure anyone here said that; I expressly denied that this external alteration would affect sex drive. OSG *wondered* if it might permit a purer service (as I read her.)

Yes osg did wonder that and i offered my own opinion on the subject. Improved or purer to me would mean the same. and i will still say purer is something you do with your mind not your crotch.
I actually wanted to have that done to me at one point in my owned life and it upset the person i was with because he felt he hadnt taught me right. I am/was a little on the constantly sexually aroused side, and it was part of the reason he chose me. He liked knowing i had to use all my will to control that when he told me to or when i knew that he wanted it that way. So i believe your mind can control what you feel physically,and purer or improved service comes from there. ick i have a headache, not sure how much sense that made, feel free to pick it apart pure, i'll be back.

 

[WriterDom]

I say go for it. He should also remove your arms and legs. That way he could spin you around on his cock like a top.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

I say go for it. He should also remove your arms and legs. That way he could spin you around on his cock like a top.

~coffee spew~

 

[Pure]

KJ:// I am/was a little on the constantly sexually aroused side, and it was part of the reason he chose me. He liked knowing i had to use all my will to control that when he told me to or when i knew that he wanted it that way. //

I have some sympathy with the view that the sub's strong sexual desire and need can be preserved... so as to provide a means to further their subordination.

But I would not ask for control by will; better the sub let loose... but in thoroughly humiliating circumstances.

 

[TigerClaw]

I say go for it. He should also remove your arms and legs. That way he could spin you around on his cock like a top.

Lol, an amp fetish. Got to have plenty of KY jelly.

 

[ownedsubgal]

here is one of the most comprehensive, informative (if possibly biased) sites i found on female circumcision:

http://www.islam-online.net/iol-english/dowalia/techng-2000-August-22/techng9.asp

the type of fem circumcision i was thinking of when i made this topic, was they classify in the article as second degree...where the clitoral hood and part or possibly all of the clitoris itself are removed. i think this is probably the most common type practiced within the D/s lifestyle. and no, i do not think that it would create a complete lack of sexual desire. but i do think that the procedure, in combination with the training/teaching/conditioning by a Master on the slave's purpose and function in life, including their sex lives, could create an overall environment where things like being "horny", or being significantly sexually aroused, would be quickly forgotten for the submissive.

lara said:

"i believe there is merit in working to overcome certain responses in order to better serve the Dominant. That struggle is work in itself, so i personally see the surgery as a way to make sexual service easier by removing the chance of difficulty with self sexual arousal. While i don't believe every act performed by the sub should be fraught with hurdles, i do believe challenges should be present. It keeps you from feeling apathetic about a task that would become rote-like."

i agree that everything should not be easy for a submissive when it comes to serving their Dominant. however in my own case, my own sexual feelings/desires have never gotten in the way of my serving my Master as he demands to be served. i also don't experience feelings of resentment (as perhaps some do) over not being able to experience physical pleasure as i may wish to. i recognize those desires and feelings as selfish, and it has never been a problem for me to put them aside and serve properly. however i hate having the desires and feelings in the first place, i feel as if they are almost a block to my being the best slave that i could possibly be.

now when my Master and i were talking recently, he made the comment that he guessed that more than half of the time we are together sexually, i am "indifferent"...meaning, i'm not physically aroused and have no sexual desire/yearning of my own. that is just what he has sensed in the jillions of times we have been together. and i surprised him by telling him that wasn't quite true, i often am sexually aroused with him, but i think his conditioning of me along with the conditioning of past men in my life have caused my body to no longer physically respond in accordance with my mental feelings of arousal. i think a fem circumcision would only enhance this, but as that is not what my Master wants, so it will not be happening. He actually wants me to be horny sometimes, even in my own subtle way.

 

[snowy ciara]

If the ultimate point is to remove sexual desire, then I don't think the surgery is the way to go. If you wish to inhibit sexual desire it seems that chemicals are the way to go. There are drugs that do this. Off course, drugs can also carry a high cost in side effects but it's less invasive.

Personally, this sort of body modification won't work for me. It'd be a hard limit. Bit I can see where a lower sex drive would be a blessing. If I could turn it off, say, right before midterms and finals (to assist with concentration) I would! But I'm talking temproary measures, nothing permanent.

 

[rosco rathbone]

If the ultimate point is to remove sexual desire, then I don't think the surgery is the way to go. If you wish to inhibit sexual desire it seems that chemicals are the way to go. There are drugs that do this. Off course, drugs can also carry a high cost in side effects but it's less invasive.

Personally, this sort of body modification won't work for me. It'd be a hard limit. Bit I can see where a lower sex drive would be a blessing. If I could turn it off, say, right before midterms and finals (to assist with concentration) I would! But I'm talking temproary measures, nothing permanent.

So what you are saying, basically, is that surgical removal of your clitoris, with or without accompanying religious services, is a no-go. Verboten. Don't even think about asking!

 

[sigsauerprinces]

one thing i've never understood (and i've tried) is this thought that you have to be devoid of pleasure, or even experiencing DISpleasure, in order to be fully serving your master. (this isnt aimed at OSG, she is not the first person i've heard to say that, its more rather a general thought).

i just dont understand that. as long as i serve correctly, and am in the mindset of completely wanting to serve my master (as opposed to sitting there wishing it was time for MY orgasm or what have you) then what would it matter if i got aroused or enjoyed the situation along the way? how does that make me less sub? its just something i dont agree with. enjoying pleasure doesnt make you selfish, it makes you HUMAN. if someone wants something to serve him 24-7 and NEVER have ONE SINGLE THOUGHT about their own welfare, i think they'd be better off with a robot implanted inside a blow up doll.

humans have feelings, wants, desires, and needs. even submissives. and the fact that they do, is beautiful. it is one characteristic of being alive.

 

[snowy ciara]

So what you are saying, basically, is that surgical removal of your clitoris, with or without accompanying religious services, is a no-go. Verboten. Don't even think about asking!

'Zactly! I like my clit; it makes me happy, and I'm gonna keep it, thankyouverymuch. It just seems that if you want to "purify" your submission by reducing sexual drive, you should reduce the outflow of the hormones causing it; not the body part it affects.

 

[rosco rathbone]

, i think they'd be better off with a robot implanted inside a blow up doll.

Don't think that the more futuristic leaders of your community haven't thought of that one already.

We are working on it.

All kidding aside, I think that the views you protest are in the tiny minority. Most masters crave evidence of their skills as lovers. That's how it seems to me, anyway.

"Ship all sub jobs to China. Break the union. Then replace them all with automation"

 

[sigsauerprinces]

Don't think that the more futuristic leaders of your community haven't thought of that one already.

We are working on it.

All kidding aside, I think that the views you protest are in the tiny minority. Most masters crave evidence of their skills as lovers. That's how it seems to me, anyway.

"Ship all sub jobs to China. Break the union. Then replace them all with automation"

true, i understand that the views i protest are in the minority (tho i dont really protest them-i believe very much that a persons body is theirs to do with as they choose, even if they choose something someone else disagrees with. i dont agree with someone wanting to cut off their clit-i think thats awful. but i know theres plenty of ppl who would think its awful that i want to devote myself to making one other person happy, and that i'd put his happiness in front of my own...that i would crawl to him and kneel in front of him-thats abhorrent to some people-yet it makes me happy. so..different strokes n stuff).

i guess i protest it becuz to never experience pleasure seems to be like you're not really alive. i think thats kind of sad. but still-ppl can do what they want as long as theyre not hurting others. we're all the captain of our own ship, even if we turn the wheel over to someone else.

 

[Pure]

To SS: The number of folks calling for extinction of pleasure in the sub, is minute.

The real divide, imo, is between those tops who honor and cultivate that pleasure and an end in itself, and those who, primarily, *use* that pleasure to further the strength of the power arrangement. (As we use a dog's pleasure at eating special 'treats' to train him.)

 

[SpankingPet]

Something that I've noticed after being in this lifestyle for a long time, is that many subs/slaves are really women with a form of battered women's syndrome. They think they're proving how much they love their dominant by taking whatever he dishes out. And if he's not dishing it out, they figure out a way to get their need for pain..a reflection of their inner turmoil, fed.

That's what I thought of when I read the question about how female circumcision might make her feel like she's truly giving selflessly. It's almost as if the dominant sounds perfectly happy with the current arrangement, yet she's still willing to give even more, and since he apparently hasn't upped the ante, she's going to up the ante by offering body parts to continue proving her selfless servitude.

I'm thinking she needs a shrink more than a surgeon.

 

[AvaAdore]

Why doesn't anyone complain about male circumcision? I would say it's equivalent to removing the hood of the clit. It is just as barbaric.

Your body has all of it's parts for a reason!

http://www.eskimo.com/~gburlin/mgm/facts.html

If you are an adult and want to be circumcised for whatever reason, fine. But imposing it on those who cannot choose is wrong!

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

Why doesn't anyone complain about male circumcision? I would say it's equivalent to removing the hood of the clit. It is just as barbaric.

Your body has all of it's parts for a reason!

http://www.eskimo.com/~gburlin/mgm/facts.html

If you are an adult and want to be circumcised for whatever reason, fine. But imposing it on those who cannot choose is wrong!

This is how I feel about circumcising a baby. If I ever have children (which seems unlikely now, granted), no son of mine will be circumcised unless he makes that choice as an adult.

However, Ava, removing the clit hood is not what OSG was talking about, but rather removing the clitoris itself.

 

[AvaAdore]

Another one:

http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html

I know what osg was talking about. I was just trying to think of a female analogue of male circumcision.

 

[Kajira Callista]

hmmmm im up early and not enough coffee yet but this thought just crossed my mind. Could it be that someone wanting to do this is not doing it "for Master" but doing it to fill her own masochistic needs using her devotion to her Master as justification for it?

 

[Esclava]

hmmmm im up early and not enough coffee yet but this thought just crossed my mind. Could it be that someone wanting to do this is not doing it "for Master" but doing it to fill her own masochistic needs using her devotion to her Master as justification for it?

Even knowing of your lack of coffee, I understand this and offer:

If said sub is doing (or wants to do) this "for Master", whence comes the "purity" in service? If my (?) masochistic needs are driving me to even consider such an extreme act, I ask again, whence comes the "purity" in service? If my subervient "desire" to please Master is driving me to consider such an extreme act, whose "desires" am I, ultimately, serving?

If Master's "desire" is that I submit to such an extreme act, a GOOD Master would have no problem explaining his desire - to destroy a portion of my anatomy for his pleasure (?) - in terms clear enough for me to understand and accept. And believe it or not, the words "Because it is what I desire" - will not work. They will not work for me; and, I'm sure, many other submissives whose Masters love them for the strength of their character and ability to "respectfully" call them to task on something that needs to be considered carefully before implementation.

IMO, the bottom line to this question has nothing to do with one's "purity" of service. It has more to do with whose needs are being served.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

Why doesn't anyone complain about male circumcision? I would say it's equivalent to removing the hood of the clit. It is just as barbaric.

Your body has all of it's parts for a reason!

http://www.eskimo.com/~gburlin/mgm/facts.html

If you are an adult and want to be circumcised for whatever reason, fine. But imposing it on those who cannot choose is wrong!

I did 19 years ago and refused to allow my son to be circumsized unless there was a medical reason. As he grew older, doctors thought perhaps it might become necessary due to a tight foreskin, but using methods devised for this purpose, and which were painless, there has not been a need to circumsize. Having had expereinces with men who have and have not been circumsized, it seems the uncircumsized men experience more sensation during sex. For that reason, there are a small percentage of men trying to have a foreskin replaced through surgical and other means.

Catalina