Female subs as "the other woman"

[Nirvanadragones]

Maybe it isn't about submissiveness.

Dismissiveness more likely.

 

[Cattypuss]

I don't think the question is so much is it easier, but does being submissive make us more prone to it.

Actually yes, Wenchie - that was the question in my head and you have worded it less ambiguously than I did. Thanks!

 

[the captians wench]

Actually yes, Wenchie - that was the question in my head and you have worded it less ambiguously than I did. Thanks!

I can't seem to get the thoughts in my head to come out coherantly, but I have a real responce bubbling.

 

[JMohegan]

And it's got me wondering. Does a submissive nature in a woman make it easier to tolerate that dynamic?

No, I don't think so.

I think you are confusing "submissive nature" with "wired for poly."

Can the dynamic even be seen as part and parcel of the submissive's "service" to the man?

It could be presented that way, sure. In the old: "a true submissive would do anything her master wants" kind of way. [That's just the kinky version of "if you really loved me, you'd understand/be willing to wait/whatever."]

Or it could be presented as: "my wife just doesn't understand my dominant orientation, but I'm honor-bound to stay in the marriage and I desperately need you to give me what she never could." [That's just the kinky version of the standard cheating guy's line; there are many versions of it, and millions of women who are willing to comply.]

Does the suffering, the always coming second, key into something that the submissive craves or thinks she deserves, or thinks is appropriate to her submission?

Here I think you are confusing "submissive" with either "emotional masochist" or "person with low self-esteem."

 

[JMohegan]

no. absolutely no way can I be 'the other woman'. If I'm not the woman, then fuck it.

Kybele, are you a sub outside the bedroom, or only inside?

Kybele's response is the same that would have been given by every committed partner I've ever had. (All submissive, to me, both inside the bedroom and out.)

Kybele's response doesn't make me question the level of her submissiveness. That response just makes her sound monogamous and self-aware.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Very interesting thread. I am "the other woman" in my D/s relationship but I do have a primary in my marriage. This question (as I understand it) doesn't apply to me.

Though it does make me think about my own situation.

 

[welkin]

This thread makes me sad, for I am sorta in this situation myself... sorta, as in I don't think I even count as "the other woman".

I know I deserve better, but one, he's never made false promises or anything, and two, I suppose I am just waiting for something better to come along... though admittedly getting a bit too attached in the meantime...


To answer the question, I don't think it's the "submissiveness", I think it's the "female-ness" that makes us want to have more meaningful relationships than just random sex. If one is ok with NSA sex, then one wouldn't complain about "being the other woman"... which is what I assume the OP is getting at.

Unless OP is also inclusive of those women happily being involved in polyamorous affairs. Then it's probably the general "bdsm-ness" that allows us to be more open about sexuality...

 

[kimuk]

Yes there are lots of subs who are the "other woman."
Equally there are lots of Doms who are the "other man."
What is impossible at home sometimes has to find an outlet elsewhere with someone who has the same needs and desires.
If has never effected my "real life " relationship.
Not that I have vast experiance.
Just different sides of the same coin ....maybe?

 

[intothewoods]

There's a difference between relationships where everyone is getting exactly what they want and expect, and relationships where one or both partners are kidding themselves. If the "other woman" is constantly miserable -- hoping for more time, attention, commitment -- she's gotta pull the plug or she's a glutton for punishment/emotional masochist/whatever. Kind of an interesting topic but I don't see that it has anything to do with submission.

 

[Cattypuss]

There's a difference between relationships where everyone is getting exactly what they want and expect, and relationships where one or both partners are kidding themselves. If the "other woman" is constantly miserable -- hoping for more time, attention, commitment -- she's gotta pull the plug or she's a glutton for punishment/emotional masochist/whatever. Kind of an interesting topic but I don't see that it has anything to do with submission.

Merely that I see a higher proportion of women in that situation among the subs on these boards than I do in other circles in which I move. Hence my starting this thread.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Merely that I see a higher proportion of women in that situation among the subs on these boards than I do in other circles in which I move. Hence my starting this thread.

Perhaps it is more because the screen allows a certain amount of anonymity, or perhaps because women into D/s in a friendly environment will be more open about it. There are many people out there in vanillaland having affairs, but most do not tell many if any simply because they need or want to keep it private for a variety of reasons. LOL, here apparently, affairs among married (or partnered) folk is more the norm than monogamy for both men and women.

Catalina

 

[wicked woman]

There's a difference between relationships where everyone is getting exactly what they want and expect, and relationships where one or both partners are kidding themselves. If the "other woman" is constantly miserable -- hoping for more time, attention, commitment -- she's gotta pull the plug or she's a glutton for punishment/emotional masochist/whatever. Kind of an interesting topic but I don't see that it has anything to do with submission.

Merely that I see a higher proportion of women in that situation among the subs on these boards than I do in other circles in which I move. Hence my starting this thread.

I have to agree with ITW.

I too have noticed a number of subs posting here, seemingly unhappy at being the other woman, so I understand where the question came from, but have to admit that when I read those posts I'm usually surprised. I don't post much here...I read more...and I'm mostly private so don't treat Lit like a blog. So the posts surprise me because it's foreign to me to do so but also because, when in a similar situation, I talk to him about it and so I wonder why those that post don't talk to the person involved. Not passing judgment, just different ways of handling things. When I'm happy I tell him. When something is bothering me I discuss it with him.

There may be something in your suggestion cattypuss that some submissives are more likely to suffer personally for the sake of their Dominant when in the position of being the other woman, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that it's common. Not that long ago I read a thread on FL and the majority of submissives clearly stated that they were monogamous and would not be the other woman. There are also a number of women in the other woman role who are polyamorous who are quite happy with their situation. So as some others have suggested, I don't see a relationship as you suggest.

Personally, I've been what you call the other woman to a married man for a number of years now. He's always been honest with me about where he stands with his marriage. I've always known where I stood...I affectionately call it knowing my place...and he's never made me feel like I was second class.

I'm polyamorous and how I interpret that for me, when I'm in more than one relationship, would only have one primary relationship, so I expect to be the other woman as well as be in a relationship with someone who is the other (wo)man to my primary relationship. That's good...not something to be endured.

An interesting question though.

 

[welkin]

I too have noticed a number of subs posting here, seemingly unhappy at being the other woman, so I understand where the question came from, but have to admit that when I read those posts I'm usually surprised. I don't post much here...I read more...and I'm mostly private so don't treat Lit like a blog. So the posts surprise me because it's foreign to me to do so but also because, when in a similar situation, I talk to him about it and so I wonder why those that post don't talk to the person involved. Not passing judgment, just different ways of handling things. When I'm happy I tell him. When something is bothering me I discuss it with him.

On the subject of talking... I think being the other woman makes it harder to know what you can ask for. Sometimes I find myself thinking "I'd know how to handle this if it were a regular relationship", since after all that's the familiar ground...

And of course, simply being "the other" means you just don't have that much leverage. I suppose one could just stand up and walk away when things don't meet expectations... but when a good man is hard to find, let alone a good dom, sometimes falling short is still a lot better than nothing.

 

[BiterChick]

.....

 

[SweetMystery]

Submissive or not, I do not want to be second or third...I do not even want to be first. I want to be only.

I came across this passage in a book I was reading the other day. This is what I want to be to him.

“I shall not attempt to describe the rapture of that afternoon…. I can only permit myself to record that she was all women. Not all woman but all women. She reduced the plural to the singular, multiplicity to one. After knowing her, there seemed no need for another. She was the Eternal Female, capitalized, and at the moment I was bewitched.”

Possibly too lofty a goal...but one to which I aspire.

 

[Cattypuss]

Submissive or not, I do not want to be second or third...I do not even want to be first. I want to be only.

I came across this passage in a book I was reading the other day. This is what I want to be to him.

“I shall not attempt to describe the rapture of that afternoon…. I can only permit myself to record that she was all women. Not all woman but all women. She reduced the plural to the singular, multiplicity to one. After knowing her, there seemed no need for another. She was the Eternal Female, capitalized, and at the moment I was bewitched.”

Possibly too lofty a goal...but one to which I aspire.

Nice passage (even if the "capitalized" is a bit redundant in the circs!). Puts me in mind of the lines "She is all states, and all princes I;/ Nothing else is." in this Donne poem:

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/sunrising.htm

 

[wicked woman]

On the subject of talking... I think being the other woman makes it harder to know what you can ask for. Sometimes I find myself thinking "I'd know how to handle this if it were a regular relationship", since after all that's the familiar ground...

And of course, simply being "the other" means you just don't have that much leverage. I suppose one could just stand up and walk away when things don't meet expectations... but when a good man is hard to find, let alone a good dom, sometimes falling short is still a lot better than nothing.

I distinguish what I need versus what I want, from the relationship. I have to get what I need from the relationship...while it would be nice, I don't expect to get everything that I might want. A certain degree of what I want is also required though. That's the same for any relationship. I don't think this changes just because he has a primary relationship.

Don't have that much leverage? I think as long as a relationship isn't one sided, that both parties have a vested interest in the relationship and keeping each other happy.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Also a sort of desperation, because this is still a fringe sexuality and when it's already difficult to find a vanilla partner- finding a compatible kinkster with the right chemistry would be much rarer. One would want to hold onto that once it's found even if it doesn't come in the package you expected, no?

In part this is true, but IMO, if you require a D/s relationship, and you also require it to be monogamous, then just finding chemistry with someone is not grounds to accept being one of the mix in a poly arrangement, or one which is built on cheating. If you do that and it is not what you wanted and required, then you have not found the one who is right for you. Settling for less is another way of convincing oneself that this is all you can expect to have and most likely low self esteem and happiness.

Personally speaking, I always wonder how women in poly can be sexually happy if the PYL is a male...men have limitations unfortunately in what they can deliver and how many times, so if you have a healthy libido, having to share that must mean someone, if not all except the PYL, are left wanting more often than not. I found that being left continuously wanting more didn't work for me long before I became involved in this lifestyle so it made monogamy purely practical.

Catalina

 

[eastern sun]

Submissive or not, I do not want to be second or third...I do not even want to be first. I want to be only.

I came across this passage in a book I was reading the other day. This is what I want to be to him.

“I shall not attempt to describe the rapture of that afternoon…. I can only permit myself to record that she was all women. Not all woman but all women. She reduced the plural to the singular, multiplicity to one. After knowing her, there seemed no need for another. She was the Eternal Female, capitalized, and at the moment I was bewitched.”

Possibly too lofty a goal...but one to which I aspire.

People I have been involved with, including my husband, have pulled out this kind of phrasing - and it never rings true in the long run. First of all, because that's really a high expectation - to be all women in one. it just isn't always true.

And second, and more significantly in my view, is that as soon as someone is viewing me in that way they are no longer interacting with me. They are interacting with an idea of, or ideal, me. And you can feel it in the nature of their touch, their gaze, their attitude. There's a disconnect and a very subtle withdrawal that occurs.

Maybe I'm not being fair, because I do think that the guys who have used this kind of phrase believe what they're saying in the moment, it just doesn't ring true to me on the other side of the equation. And i much prefer the interactions in which, even if I'm not the only woman in their life, the person I am with is fully appreciating the actual real-life particular woman that I am - endowed with tremendous power sometimes, but still bound in this limited earthly realm.

 

[welkin]

With bdsm, the idea of play partners is more openly, if not more widely accepted than with vanilla. In my particular case, the relationship is an agreed NSA, and I think being a woman makes me more susceptible to become emotionally attached than I should be. I wonder if others fall into this situation in similar ways, i.e. thinking that I could keep the physical and emotional aspects separate but only failing to do so. It'd almost feel like it's my fault for breaching the NSA agreement, so I constantly rein myself back, so to speak.

On the other hand, I am keeping a close eye on my well-being; so far the pros outweigh the cons. And hoping to be able to find someone else who could be monogamous with me. It's hard.

 

[mitchell67]

re: roles and goals

On the subject of talking... I think being the other woman makes it harder to know what you can ask for. Sometimes I find myself thinking "I'd know how to handle this if it were a regular relationship", since after all that's the familiar ground...

And of course, simply being "the other" means you just don't have that much leverage. I suppose one could just stand up and walk away when things don't meet expectations... but when a good man is hard to find, let alone a good dom, sometimes falling short is still a lot better than nothing.

I've heard some describe how single women become attracted to married men that since they want a husband, they are attracted to those who have proven themselves capable of being ones.
Could there also be an attraction for the power and status that married men have? They have, car, house, maybe kids, and a wife. Does that not also imply that they have more power than a single man who cannot even get a woman to answer yes to such a basic question?
I think, however, in truly examining this question, we need meaningful numbers and nobody is going to produce numbers that we get get any correlations from. We'll have lots of anecdotes and some really interesting personal accounts, and hopefully we'll learn something from them, but no conclusions or reliable trends.

 

[Keroin]

People I have been involved with, including my husband, have pulled out this kind of phrasing - and it never rings true in the long run. First of all, because that's really a high expectation - to be all women in one. it just isn't always true.

I believe there is a Hollywood/fairytale idea out there that when you find your special, one, true love they will be everything to you, and you to them. This is an idea I find flawed and troubling.

Personally, I need other people, men and women, in my life. L and I are immensely compatible (you have to be if you live and work together 24/7) but by no means could we be completely fulfilled without the companionship and input of others. There are things I get from friends and peer groups that I could never get from him, and I'm certain the same holds true for him, when it comes to me.

The weight of an expectation that I could, or should, be every woman would crush me.

 

[welkin]

I've heard some describe how single women become attracted to married men that since they want a husband, they are attracted to those who have proven themselves capable of being ones.
Could there also be an attraction for the power and status that married men have? They have, car, house, maybe kids, and a wife. Does that not also imply that they have more power than a single man who cannot even get a woman to answer yes to such a basic question?

I think that has some merit... My partner is a lot older than I, and I find his maturity very attractive, as compared to men around my own age. I suppose it's not surprising that the more attractive, older men to be already married...


But I think that's just a general preference, nothing to do with my being a sub...

 

[Cattypuss]

That whole "all women" thing.... I wonder of some of you are misreading it.

I read it as "in that moment of passion and connection she was everything".

NOT as anything extending beyond an episode of passion or connection.

I mean, for fuck's sake, if a man looked to me for everything and didn't have other friends etc, I'd think there was something SERIOUSLY wrong with him. Same goes the other way, obviously - I'm not fucked up - my lover is a massive part of my life but so are work, my family and my friends - not to mention my time alone.

 

[evesdream]

This might be true, but not necessarily so, for those who consider themselves polyamorous.

Thanks for this point back there; I didn't even think of that.