Female subs as "the other woman"

[JMohegan]

Point taken.



Whilst I agree that everyone are always primarily responsible for themselves, I still would expect the Dom to have the strength of character to make the difficult decisions if the sub is not able to, yet is still clearly suffering. But that's just me, and my expectations might be too high and unrealistic.

I am attracted to strength of character in a partner as well.

D = strong, s = weak is not a model that I find appealing.

 

[Keroin]

Whilst I agree that everyone are always primarily responsible for themselves, I still would expect the Dom to have the strength of character to make the difficult decisions if the sub is not able to, yet is still clearly suffering. But that's just me, and my expectations might be too high and unrealistic.

I'd say your expectations are not high enough. For the pyl, that is.

The "poor helpless female sub" stereotype is annoying, at the very least.

 

[where]

I'd say your expectations are not high enough. For the pyl, that is.

The "poor helpless female sub" stereotype is annoying, at the very least.

I agree, BUT....

there do seem to be many pyls out there who are unwilling to decide for themselves what to eat, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some are also unable to break off a toxic relationship. You may also assume that the PYLs they are with are also into this kind of relationship and so just as they must bear the burden of responsibility in deciding the pyl's diet, so they have the responsibility to end the relationship.

 

[BunnyHopper]

I am very dazed and confused, I'll grant that, and not only when it comes to my expectations. That is one of the reasons I'm reading these forums. I'm not attempting to extrapolate my own problems to be the problems of all submissive women. I'm merely contemplating my own problems and expectations.

 

[BunnyHopper]

I agree, BUT....

there do seem to be many pyls out there who are unwilling to decide for themselves what to eat, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some are also unable to break off a toxic relationship. You may also assume that the PYLs they are with are also into this kind of relationship and so just as they must bear the burden of responsibility in deciding the pyl's diet, so they have the responsibility to end the relationship.

This. I guess what I was thinking, but clearly not expressing well enough, was that if you enter a relationship where the Dom really wants to be in charge and make all the important decisions, then the unwillingness to make those decisions when they're clearly needed is just a bit cruel. And even more cruel if the rules are changed down the line and all of a sudden it's "I'll make the decisions if I feel like I'm up for it, but if I'm not, then you're the one who should be responsible of your own life anyway".

 

[where]

This. I guess what I was thinking, but clearly not expressing well enough, was that if you enter a relationship where the Dom really wants to be in charge and make all the important decisions, then the unwillingness to make those decisions when they're clearly needed is just a bit cruel.

the problem with that is however, is would you want to be with a PYL and have him make all the decisions when he only wants to be with you part time?

 

[JMohegan]

I agree, BUT....

there do seem to be many pyls out there who are unwilling to decide for themselves what to eat, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some are also unable to break off a toxic relationship. You may also assume that the PYLs they are with are also into this kind of relationship and so just as they must bear the burden of responsibility in deciding the pyl's diet, so they have the responsibility to end the relationship.

Say you have a job, and your boss gets to tell you when to show up & what to do when you get there. Whether you must go out every day for lunch, or can eat at your desk. Code of dress, code of conduct, performance expectations, etc.

It is not the responsibility of your boss to decide that you would be happier or better fulfilled at another place of employment. And as long as you keep consenting to the arrangement, he is not going to fire you unless *his* needs are no longer being met.

Adults need to take responsibility for the commitments they make, no matter what type or level of control they give up as a byproduct of the commitment itself. Not just in employment, but in relationships as well.

I am very dazed and confused, I'll grant that, and not only when it comes to my expectations. That is one of the reasons I'm reading these forums. I'm not attempting to extrapolate my own problems to be the problems of all submissive women. I'm merely contemplating my own problems and expectations.

Dazed & confused is okay, as long as you do not accept dazed & confused as a permanent state.

 

[JMohegan]

This. I guess what I was thinking, but clearly not expressing well enough, was that if you enter a relationship where the Dom really wants to be in charge and make all the important decisions, then the unwillingness to make those decisions when they're clearly needed is just a bit cruel. And even more cruel if the rules are changed down the line and all of a sudden it's "I'll make the decisions if I feel like I'm up for it, but if I'm not, then you're the one who should be responsible of your own life anyway".

The decision on whether to commit to the relationship is yours, and yours alone. The D does not, and never did, have that power.

This isn't a question of whether he feels "up for it." Consent to commit is yours to give, not his to take.

 

[BunnyHopper]

the problem with that is however, is would you want to be with a PYL and have him make all the decisions when he only wants to be with you part time?

Well I personally wouldn't be the other woman, nor would I want my PYL to make all the decisions.

I think that the earlier point about having a secret affair in the first place shows some lack of character was quite accurate. Though after reading through the "sexless marriage hookup thread", I'm can't completely stand behind the statement.

 

[where]

This. I guess what I was thinking, but clearly not expressing well enough, was that if you enter a relationship where the Dom really wants to be in charge and make all the important decisions, then the unwillingness to make those decisions when they're clearly needed is just a bit cruel.

the problem with that however, is would you want to be with a PYL and have him make all the decisions when he only wants to be with you part time? A PYL of that type, who wants to make decisions for a pyl but won't support her to leave her partner, is a pretty shitty one, IMO. therefore not one worth having.

 

[where]

Say you have a job, and your boss gets to tell you when to show up & what to do when you get there. Whether you must go out every day for lunch, or can eat at your desk. Code of dress, code of conduct, performance expectations, etc.

It is not the responsibility of your boss to decide that you would be happier or better fulfilled at another place of employment. And as long as you keep consenting to the arrangement, he is not going to fire you unless *his* needs are no longer being met.

Adults need to take responsibility for the commitments they make, no matter what type or level of control they give up as a byproduct of the commitment itself. Not just in employment, but in relationships as well.

I agree completely, but I recognise that there are people in certain types of relationships where they don't take personal responsibility.

It is one thing if you are in a 24/7 D/s or M/s or W/w relationship, but in a part time one, I think it's completely untenable.

Well I personally wouldn't be the other woman, nor would I want my PYL to make all the decisions.

I think that the earlier point about having a secret affair in the first place shows some lack of character was quite accurate. Though after reading through the "sexless marriage hookup thread", I'm can't completely stand behind the statement.

heh, well I'm horribly indecisive so I sometimes thing it would be nice to have someone make decisions for me, but the reality is I personally cannot abdicate my personal responsibility. I'm not a child any more.

as to people having secret affairs generally, I cast no judgment on people. walk a mile in that person's shoes and all that jazz.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree completely, but I recognise that there are people in certain types of relationships where they don't take personal responsibility.

It is one thing if you are in a 24/7 D/s or M/s or W/w relationship, but in a part time one, I think it's completely untenable.

Following orders/obeying instructions/submitting..... that's not the same thing as abdicating personal responsibility. If that's the deal to which someone has committed, then following through on that commitment *is* the responsible thing, within the relationship itself.

The question is: what happens when following through on the commitments of a particular relationship makes someone miserable? It seems to me that there are three choices - continue and stay miserable, talk to the D and ask for help in addressing the source of the misery, or withdraw the commitment to the relationship and get out.

I don't think part time vs full time has anything to do with it. Those are the choices, regardless.

 

[FurryFury]

My feeling is that I would not ever want to be the other woman. I don't want to mess up someone else's or my relationship.

That being said, if I were single and if the relationship were truly an open one with both partners knowing and accepting another person in I might be okay with that. It would depend on where I was in my life and what I wanted out of said relationship.

FF

 

[where]

.....

 

[eastern sun]

If I'm told what to wear, what to eat and when I may speak, then even though the PYL may say, "you still have responsibility to yourself", the very process becomes disempowering. Which I suppose is what TPE is all about, no?

I don't think TPE is disempowering at all. Having been working with it for some time now, my own experience is that it gives you a very clear experience of your own power (on both sides of the equation) - both its scope and its limits.

Think of it like anything you focus on singlemindedly. You learn a lot about what you're doing.

 

[where]

I don't think TPE is disempowering at all. Having been working with it for some time now, my own experience is that it gives you a very clear experience of your own power (on both sides of the equation) - both its scope and its limits.

Think of it like anything you focus on singlemindedly. You learn a lot about what you're doing.

OK, well if you are actually doing it, then you must know better, but it strikes me as contrary to say that by giving up power, or relinquishing it to another, is empowering.

and the many many threads made on here, fetlife and informed consent by pyls would suggest that for a great number, it is problematic.

 

[eastern sun]

OK, well if you are actually doing it, then you must know better, but it strikes me as contrary to say that by giving up power, or relinquishing it to another, is empowering.

and the many many threads made on here, fetlife and informed consent by pyls would suggest that for a great number, it is problematic.

I think they find it problematic because they really do want to give up power, and their partners want it too, but it's impossible. So they end up in a confusing state of affairs.

On the other hand, if you recognize that you have power, and are simply using it in a particular way, it makes it easier to figure out what's going on.

 

[JMohegan]

hmmmm... well I'm not sure that if you are in a dynamic where you are following orders, you aren't abdicating personal responsibility, at least whilst you are in the relationship. If I'm told what to wear, what to eat and when I may speak, then even though the PYL may say, "you still have responsibility to yourself", the very process becomes disempowering. Which I suppose is what TPE is all about, no?

the full time vs part time has everything to do with it because half the time the pyl is submitting to someone in secret. This can only create stress and tension:

PYL: I want you to wear red nail polish for me when we meet.

husband: you know I hate red nail polish. can you take it off please?
wife/pyl: I'd rather not.
husband: why not? it's a small thing I know, but I really don't like it on you.
wife/pyl: well I... ummm...

and if the pyl has become completely disempowered, then they are fucked both ways. and not in a good way.

Now we're flipping it, so that the D is the "other man"??

I'm confused.

Look, here's where I'm coming from. I see a distinction between: A - taking responsibility for following orders (whatever they may be, and to whatever scope they may extend) while in a relationship of that type, and B - taking responsibility for one's own personal health & happiness.

"I'm not eating peas because he said I shouldn't eat peas" does NOT translate into: "I'll stay committed to this relationship, no matter how miserable I get, because he's allowed to dictate my food choices when I'm in it."

 

[welkin]

I agree the sub should ultimately be responsible for her well being. Though should the sub be unable to do so, it would be nice if the Dom could help her out. I'd like to think there's more friendly rapport between the two than the employer vs employee example.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree the sub should ultimately be responsible for her well being. Though should the sub be unable to do so, it would be nice if the Dom could help her out.

And vice versa.

Two adults in a relationship. Each person ultimately responsible for his or her well being, and each person willing to help out if the other becomes incapacitated somehow.

 

[eastern sun]

And vice versa.

Two adults in a relationship. Each person ultimately responsible for his or her well being, and each person willing to help out if the other becomes incapacitated somehow.

Hear. Hear.

 

[loneranger8921]

As a Dom and a man who has had a few other women. I find that most of the submissive women enjoy being the other women due to the fact they no they are doing wrong and they thrive on it. It makes the discipline they require more enjoyable!!
When I have had a submissive as my main girl there is some thing that is lost sometimes in the play.
With an affair type relationship it stays based mostly on sex and play not emotional commitment. Maybe it is what i look for but to be honest they seem to find me.