First story and i'm having fun!

[sr71plt]

Sr,
All my stories begin somewhere between 4000 and 7000 words. Then I start chopping. I chop everything that isn't absolutly necessary to the plot or to identify a character. In this process, I rewrite to combine sentences, change words to create images in the mind of the reader rather than discribe and make the story as short as possible. In the end, my stories end up 2500 to 3000 words, but there is no extra meat in them at all. I really believe that is about as short as a story can be and still make it as a story under my definition. Potentially, a story could be 1900 or 2000 words, but that would be really difficult to write.

The viginettes we see in this forum, like this story, consist of a single scene, usually centered around a fuck. They have no motivation, the characters are really unaffected by the scene and the "story" really doesn't go anywhere.

Howver, viginettes are a place for the young writers to start. If they can write a readable viginette, it's not that big a jump to a real story. But it does need to be pointed out that a viginette isn't a story and what they need to do to make that jump.

The "write and trim" method is a good approach. Though, I usually write and then sometimes pad a bit on short stories. (I mostly write novels, but the arc for one of my chapters isn't that much different from the arc for my short stories). I don't think length at all, though. There's some nub of something I work with in each story--a theme or a point or a twist or emotion or concept. And the determination of whether that is a story or a vignette isn't really in length or character development or motivation or (sometimes) even resolution. If some theme/concept is being examined or some point being argued in addition to/in contrast to/in example of sex in a simple fuck scene, that's still a short story. If it's just a straightforward fuck scene without presenting anything deeper than that, yes, it's "just" a vignette (but I'd argue these have an audience at Lit.).

The approach in developing the "hook" of my story has different requirements--they don't all require motivation or character development or pushing all of the buttons of someone's idea of a formulaic shopping list of "must haves."

Example (one that popped into my head in an earlier thread discussion where it was stated that reviewers here preferred stories of 7,000 words): I have a story here, "Licorice-Centered Milk Chocolate," which I'm fairly certain you will consider to be "just a vignette." It's not, though, it's a short story. It's "just" a fuck scene. I wanted to work with two concepts in this. One was imaging intense passion. And if that's all this story did, I'd agree it was a vignette (but I wouldn't look down my nose at it if someone else had written it--I certainly would not have told them that they shouldn't just post vignettes here--that they had to try writing stories). But there was a deeper concept I was working with on this one. I wanted to present the idea that sex is sex is sex and isn't gender dependent (I'm bi, so that's an important concept for me). I tried to write the story so that the only determination whether this was M/F or M/M was in the prejudice of the reader. In this vein, it doesn't matter how long it was or whether the characters developed or motivated--it's still a short story; it's developing a concept that transcends the scene.

And how it fits with the earlier discussion: It's also both my most frequently reviewed story and my most favorably reviewed story at Lit. (by Lit. reviewers) (not my highest rated by votes, naturally). And it is a whooping 843 words long.

Doubling back on "change and/or resolution" even being a requirement for a short story--which I had said myself in my last post: No, not even this is a blanket "requirement" for a short story. My "Distant Planets" here purposely stands that "requirement" on its head. The theme/point examined in this story is how the lack of communication can result in a spiral down to tragedy expressly because there is no change and no resolution. So there couldn't be change or resolution in the story. That was the whole point of the "hook." Doesn't make "Distant Planets" any less a short story.

So, I go back to there being no firm generalizations in this dimension on what
is a short story, let alone a good short story (both of the stories I have mentioned have sold more than once each). And certainly no wordage "requirements" independent of the site's posting rules.

Thus, the feedback I give to writers (because I am a professional book/short story editor and I do judge short story competitions) is based on how well I think they have presented their story on the basis of what they were trying to do with the story (or that I could discern they seemed to be trying to do with it)--not on someone else's (or my) understanding of the "rules/requirements" (including length) for a short story--or of what I wanted the story to do or would write the story if it was mine (which it isn't).

The sorts of standard things I do look for, though, are in terms of grammar, spelling, punctuation, clarity, coherence, and structure that should be expected from the context/presentation of that particular work.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

A new writer on Lit will almost always post a viginette as his/her first effort. And, yes, there is a strong group of readers who will favorably receive that effort. But my experience on Lit over the past six years that I've been here is that these young writers who continue writing and posting viginettes never gain a following. Instead, they eventually find themselves butied in the stack of "quick writes" that are posted month after month on this site.

They really need to "raise the bar" and graduate to something more than a viginette if they are going to have any long-term sucess and loyal following on Lit or any other site. I started with a viginette. I doubt I could write one now. In fact, I write very few sex scenes at all. A good, well-written story doesn't need sex to be sucessful as long as the story is real.

Over a long time, I've developed my own writing style which has a lot to do with what I write and how I write. That's what these new writers need to do. I did't find is particularly easy, so I don't expect the new ones to find it easy either.

I've never been afraid to try something new in writing. Some things work. Some things don't. That's called experience. I don't see anything wrong with pointing the new kids in directions that I know work.

 

[sr71plt]

A new writer on Lit will almost always post a viginette as his/her first effort. And, yes, there is a strong group of readers who will favorably receive that effort. But my experience on Lit over the past six years that I've been here is that these young writers who continue writing and posting viginettes never gain a following. Instead, they eventually find themselves butied in the stack of "quick writes" that are posted month after month on this site.

They really need to "raise the bar" and graduate to something more than a viginette if they are going to have any long-term sucess and loyal following on Lit or any other site. I started with a viginette. I doubt I could write one now. In fact, I write very few sex scenes at all. A good, well-written story doesn't need sex to be sucessful as long as the story is real.

Over a long time, I've developed my own writing style which has a lot to do with what I write and how I write. That's what these new writers need to do. I did't find is particularly easy, so I don't expect the new ones to find it easy either.

I've never been afraid to try something new in writing. Some things work. Some things don't. That's called experience. I don't see anything wrong with pointing the new kids in directions that I know work.

I do agree with that if we're talking about writers who bring their works to the feedback page and ask for help in developing stories to get more readers/better ratings. If they come with just a "read my story and tell me what you think," I think it would be wrong to say "it's a vignette; you have to try to write a story." I'd pretty much try to stay within the parameters of what I understood they wanted to do in the way of writing here. It's their writing world; not mine. I think they should be able to choose their own goals and that there's a wide scale of what can be considered "success" in the Lit. writing world.

And, yes, I've heard that many of your stories here have no sex in them at all. My writing partner here (I coauthor another line of stories here not under my own name) also has a few no-sex stories here (one with an E on it, I think). I doubt I'll do that myself, though. My stories that get posted here are here because they are sex stories. My non-sex stories I put out under my real name and peddle them to mainstream publishing.

 

[sr71plt]

Instead, they eventually find themselves butied in the stack of "quick writes" that are posted month after month on this site.

I like to think in terms of effective/comprehensive writes rather than "quick writes." Writers are different. Some ponder and review and rewrite forever. Some have the story basically form in their heads--often without them even being aware of it--and the write is quick, but also comprehensive. I'm one of the latter. I write at a pace of some 1,000 or more semifinished words an hour (for fiction--nonfiction is longer, because it must stay closer to sources), for stretches of up to 5 or 6 hours a day when I can dedicate the time (I do more book editing than my own writing). Some have to then polish and rewrite a lot. If I did that, I'd lose whatever freshness there is in my writing that seems to be what sells it (not that it always sells, of course. Sometimes, it's "how the hell did that mess fall out of my head?).

When I work with a writer, I try to gauge which they are and not fight that. I've seen many of writer with a "quick write" talent have their works turned into stilted crap by incessant polishing and rewriting and rethinking. And some others hand in something that looks empty and when I point that out, they tell me what they thought they'd put in there (but hadn't)--or, worse, wrote before the thought fully developed. Those are the ones I see producing good work only with several redrafts and polishing.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I don't know, Elle. "Sat" is past tense, the rest of the sentence is in present. That doesn't work for me either. It's a mind jog that I stumbled over.

And, Elle, are you saying I still write viginettes after all these years with my 2500 to 3000 word stories?

I know, I know. It's just I can read 'sat' (not most other past tense verbs) in the S&G sense. I know it's not strictly correct, but in writing you must be ready tobreak the rules when necessary. If M had used 'sitting' it would not have had the same resonance - like Paul Simon's lyric.

Girl, you's got a complex or summink? How can you write vignettes? You can't even spell it!

Morrigu writes vignettes - pretty well too. Eight hundred word sex scenes. She could set her sights higher, she is clearly a good enough writer to do so. Others write 'flash' - IMHO that is short, fairly intense porn fiction - and sometimes what you want on a gray day.

You, my dear, (here) write lampoons, comedies, pastiches - short stories where every character is gloriously exaggerated, often ridiculed, but usually blessed with a bursting libido. It goes to what you are forever, quite rightly, telling new writers here. You start with talent and some rough edges. Then you work and learn to polish up your basic ability.

You, sweetie, are so well polished you shine in the dark.

I know, the lash! Be gentle with me.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm an improvisationalist. Like Franck was at the organ, or the American honky-tonk pianist. Words drip from my fingers. Some of it's sublime and most of it's pounding chords. All of it's strewn across the internet or stuffed in boxes out in the garage.

My girlfriend, a professional writer, and I talk writing all the time. Today we discussed old people who learn oil painting at the community center. They learn the basics and paint ducks and trees and cows and meadows. It's neither inspiring nor pleasing. Its a fucking duck...or fence.

Vignettes or flashes or whatever they are might be an artform, like cameos.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

sr, don't be pompous. I enjoy your writing immensely but if you keep telling me it's serious fiction I'll start giiggling.

Face it, there's not a single author here that's going to be read in twenty years time. We are ephemeral shadows trying to weave a storytelling spell in the here and now. We search 'publication' as if it was a Pulitzer that places an imprint on our efforts.

I'm just a journeyman and great heads like you, and many others here, seem to search a Holy Grail that I suspect doesn't exist. For example, Mark Twain was a poor writer, but , to this day, we are gripped by his tales of the great river and his take on a black boy whitewashing a fence. The Da Vinci Code, IMHO a very poor novel, excites readers across the globe.

I've been a player in writing TV and film screenplays and the experience has taught me how low the writer stands in the great scheme of things.

Please, don't tell me we're perfecting an art form. I just want lots of people to like my little story.

Sorry if I don't stack up.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I'm an improvisationalist. Like Franck was at the organ, or the American honky-tonk pianist. Words drip from my fingers. Some of it's sublime and most of it's pounding chords. All of it's strewn across the internet or stuffed in boxes out in the garage.

My girlfriend, a professional writer, and I talk writing all the time. Today we discussed old people who learn oil painting at the community center. They learn the basics and paint ducks and trees and cows and meadows. It's neither inspiring nor pleasing. Its a fucking duck...or fence.

Vignettes or flashes or whatever they are might be an artform, like cameos.

It's good to see you are so humble.

Maybe the old people's paintings are neither inspiring or pleasing to you, but to the creator of the work, it may be immensely pleasing. That's what really matters.

 

[sr71plt]

sr, don't be pompous. I enjoy your writing immensely but if you keep telling me it's serious fiction I'll start giiggling.

Face it, there's not a single author here that's going to be read in twenty years time. We are ephemeral shadows trying to weave a storytelling spell in the here and now. We search 'publication' as if it was a Pulitzer that places an imprint on our efforts.

I'm just a journeyman and great heads like you, and many others here, seem to search a Holy Grail that I suspect doesn't exist. For example, Mark Twain was a poor writer, but , to this day, we are gripped by his tales of the great river and his take on a black boy whitewashing a fence. The Da Vinci Code, IMHO a very poor novel, excites readers across the globe.

I've been a player in writing TV and film screenplays and the experience has taught me how low the writer stands in the great scheme of things.

Please, don't tell me we're perfecting an art form. I just want lots of people to like my little story.

Sorry if I don't stack up.

Hey, I do write the stories I write here basically for the sexual release quotient. But, no, most of what I post here are literary studies too. A writer doesn't separate their writing into "just sex" and "just literary." I sell works both in mainline publishing and from postings on sex sites--just to different markets. Doesn't bother me if you don't think my writing is literary--I know it is; it does just fine in the literary world.

You can't say no author here is going to be read in twenty years. You have no handle on what authors who write here write elsewhere--and sell to readers. I have books still in print from twenty years ago, so I know (even if you don't) that ship won't sail. I have every reason to believe there are people writing here who will still be producing and serving readers twenty years from now.

It's this sort of sweeping generalization that has me posting on this string. Both the writer world and the world of readers who like what they write are much broader and deeper than your "the average, which you should strive for" guidance here indicates. "Average" don't win prizes.

And what's this "sorry I don't stack up" crap? For all I know, I'd love what you write--I haven't posted a thing about what you write. I've only posted to what you've declared others should be writing. Let's not go down the "you don't like my stories" path.

And you seem to be perpectuating that "pompous" misuse. Pomposity is insisting on "My way or the door." Every post I've made on this thread has been the opposite of that--there either are no such "rules" as are being pushed by others here and/or the limits they are trying to establish aren't nearly that constrictive. That's been my message. I've only repeated it when the response goes back to the stringent "got tos."

There's no need to use the board's "club" designators on me here; we're having a good discussion. Don't spoil it with pettiness.

 

[Macdaddy23]

Great story red!

 

[BellaBelleRN]

Well my first story is now on site and I'm amazed people have read it and been so encouraging. I'm having so much fun, i'll just have to do it again.

I'd be grateful for comments, constructive criticisms etc.

Voyeur
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=312534

I know how you feel, Morrigu! I too just posted my first story and was thrilled to get a response which was so nicely positive. I too would welcome constructive feedback on my story "Our Milking Time" and in particular the type of feedback you rec'd from drkside. It has been a while since I've written and I fear my grammar and writing skills have suffered from neglect.