[Flames fade...] -- wh, 1991-05-01/02

[Last_Kiss]

That's just an association. The point is about the poetic eye, about the images in the poem, not about metaphors. One can always come up with an irrelevant association, the world is that rich. Anyway, let's see if Tara can do more than to run her loose mouth.

I agree but just those few words made me think of "Hills Like White Elephants" by Ernest Hemingway.

Going back to what Tara said, I guess it didn't feel good when someone told you to trash your work whether you asked for that opinion or not. I remember going to fire child's thread where she has a poem and you said those exact words. Although she asked for that opinion, I don't believe it's what any poet wants to hear if they really think hard about it. I'm not into arguing but maybe you should consider what you say to others because you might get it back in return. Obviously, you didn't handle it well.

Your poem -

where hills
basked in sun
one whale swims slow
at night

you crowd me
and the elephant shadow

I read it late last night. I couldn't figure it out and I read it several times. I'm still trying. The first stanza I read from top to bottom then bottom to top. The reason I did so is because there isn't any punctuation and sometimes it makes understanding it a little more tricky.

I know this was meant for Tara but I can't help but say how this poem is working on my mind and wanted to try for myself.

I sense anger in the poem and I'm not sure if I'm right. But I think if it were anger, there'd be a shark and not a whale. Basked = enjoyment or taking pleasure in or from. (Mind me. I'm just taking notes as I go along)

Where hills
basked in sun - very noticeable hills is what I'm thinking besides a bright sunny day on top of it. I see beauty and mountains. It's SO bright. It's almost exciting. I believe it's because of the word "basked"

one whale swims slow
at night - but when the sun goes down, the whale shows itself and swims slow. It didn't during the day when the sun was out. It wanted to hide. There's something creepy about this. I'm still trying to figure it out. Then we come to the elephant, not just an elephant, but a shadow.

you crowd me - I'm feeling suffocated all of a sudden. The hills and mountains in my mind were so beautiful but it all stopped. I don't why but I also sense fear.

and the elephant shadow - Something is dead. It wasn't before.

I probably just caused myself a lot of embarrassment but oh well.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Going back to what Tara said, I guess it didn't feel good when someone told you to trash your work whether you asked for that opinion or not.

It made me smile. You're assuming way too much. Most likely that's how you would feel, but not me.

I remember going to fire child's thread where she has a poem and you said those exact words. Although she asked for that opinion, I don't believe it's what any poet wants to hear if they really think hard about it. I'm not into arguing but maybe you should consider what you say to others because you might get it back in return. Obviously, you didn't handle it well.

Your routine naive advice and opinion are uncalled for and false. You don't know me and you didn't care to check. I've been around the poetic scene for a long time, I had the respect of the best poets, including Keiko Imaoka, Michael McNeilley, Marek Lugowski, JJWebb, LeeAnn Heringer, Kim Hodges, Karl P. Henning, Tom Wachtel, Paul Mena and several others. It's in the Internet archives, a big part of it. The Michaels' dedication on my copy of the collection of his poems reads "Wlod -- your support is invaluable".

It's not a big deal when small-minded people like Tara can't stand someone, who is not officially recognized but who knows and feels so much more than they about poetry, who has so much more refined artistic taste than they. They especially can't stand the fact that I have profound views of my own, which are not their shallow, off hand popular useless pronouncements which amount to not more than disagreeable noise.

Actually, Last_Kiss, I am a bit annoyed that you are inducing me into all this. I am here on this forum since 2002 but this is the first time that I am spilling this kind of personal info. Please, refrain from personal comments. Stick to poetry.

Your poem -

where hills
basked in sun
one whale swims slow
at night

you crowd me
and the elephant shadow

​

I sense anger in the poem and I'm not sure if I'm right.

There is no right or wrong. Also, poems often act like a psychiatric test. The reaction depends strongly on the reader. To me the poem has a resignation mood. To you it is anger. Objectively there is neither in this poem, not literally. Author's interpretation is not more significant than anybody else's, not by the virtue of coming from the author.

Anyway, let's focus on the exercise. The stated goal was images.

But I think if it were anger, there'd be a shark and not a whale. Basked = enjoyment or taking pleasure in or from. (Mind me. I'm just taking notes as I go along)

Where hills
basked in sun - very noticeable hills is what I'm thinking besides a bright sunny day on top of it. I see beauty and mountains. It's SO bright. It's almost exciting. I believe it's because of the word "basked"

Now you're talking. I am glad that you are able to doubt your own first impression (of anger), that you are finding objective counter-indications. Indeed, it'd be quite a bit straining to summarize my poem as an anger poem (while one can still claim that there is an angry accent, if one insists).

one whale swims slow
at night - but when the sun goes down, the whale shows itself and swims slow. It didn't during the day when the sun was out. It wanted to hide. There's something creepy about this. I'm still trying to figure it out. Then we come to the elephant, not just an elephant, but a shadow.

you crowd me - I'm feeling suffocated all of a sudden. The hills and mountains in my mind were so beautiful but it all stopped. I don't why but I also sense fear.

and the elephant shadow - Something is dead. It wasn't before.

I probably just caused myself a lot of embarrassment but oh well.

Not at all. You're doing fine. You just need to truly imagine the scene, as it changes in time. This is about the arguably most important dimension of poetry, about the poetic eye--something which is totally neglected in almost all poems around here and even out there. Why? (i) Because people don't even realize that there is such a thing like poetic seeing of images, poetic eye; (ii) Because it is difficult -- first of all for authors (it's a great and wonderful challenge, while difficult); but also for readers, especially that they are not used to this because authors rarely give readers a chance, rarely give readers the pleasure of looking and seeing scenes poetically.

But at the very least, you already had the pleasure of the image of the greatest animals (mammals) on the Earth, of the whale in the distance and and of the elephant near by.

Enjoy the exercise,

 

[Last_Kiss]

It made me smile. You're assuming way too much. Most likely that's how you would feel, but not me.

Ok, well. Like I said, I'm not here to argue. It was just my first impression and if I offended you, I apologize. And, you are right. For me, I wouldn't want anyone calling anything I write as trash or to throw it out. I think it's always wise to set our work aside for a while if we think there are concerns about it. Prehaps later on, good will come from that.

Anyway, let's focus on the exercise.

You certainly gave me one.

When I read it last night, my eyes hurt too much and I couldn't think straight either. But I read it so many times, I wanted to comment when I was more awake. I look forward to hearing what Tara thinks if she comes back at all, and whether you'll be sharing more about the meaning of the poem.

 

[tarablackwood22]

It made me smile. You're assuming way too much. Most likely that's how you would feel, but not me.

All I did was give you one small spoonful of your own words, and you feel the need to mention me over and over, and cast insults, and call me out, and defend your credentials, and list your testimonials, and claim you’re handling my criticism well while obsessing over it.

Would someone who really believed in his words and ability be overcome by the urge to entrench in such a manner, from nothing?

How embarrassing for you.

You must not like the taste of your own medicine, guru ji.

 

[Senna Jawa]

All I did was [...]

You're lying. You are pestering me. It was not the first time. But yes, right, don't give yourself too much credit. You are just one from an obnoxious bunch.

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] Tara thinks [...]

That's an oxymoron.

 

[tarablackwood22]

You're lying. You are pestering me. It was not the first time. But yes, right, don't give yourself too much credit. You are just one from an obnoxious bunch.

You remind me of Willy Loman, sad man.

 

[Last_Kiss]

I guess that means I'm not going to hear about the meaning of the poem. I remember hearing to focus on poetry. Who said that again?

 

[wildsweetone]

just thinking about the poem... where in the world would you be if you could see hills basked in sun, a whale at night and an elephant's shadow?

 

[Senna Jawa]

I guess that means I'm not going to hear about the meaning of the poem. I remember hearing to focus on poetry. Who said that again?

Do you mean me? I meant to present these two poems, in particular the second one (the short one) to focus specifically on images rather than on poetry in general. The "meaning" of the poem is most of the time really not as important as it would seem from the discussions of poetry or from the critical essays, etc. Most of the time the meaning is simple. It is not the goal of poetry to overwhelm the public with a display of "intellectual" fireworks.

(Great poets actually are sharp, very intelligent, but they do not flash their wit in the text, or at least it's very rare. The author's intelligence, when significant, stays in the background).

 

[Last_Kiss]

just thinking about the poem... where in the world would you be if you could see hills basked in sun, a whale at night and an elephant's shadow?

Very smart thinking. I like this. It's almost a game.

At first I thought the zoo but then laughed at myself. It can't be because who the hell goes to the zoo at night time? Also, there's mention of the sun. I am so dying to know about this poem that I asked my kids your question. They all said zoo. Again, I laughed.

I'm now calling my ex husband who is also a writer of poetry. He's also smarter than me (in certain areas) but I'll never tell him that.

 

[wildsweetone]

where hills
basked in sun
one whale swims slow
at night

you crowd me
and the elephant shadow

okay, relax the mind time...

hills basked in sun - summer time (or in the desert - blame the word 'basked' for that... it's too close to 'baked')

one whale swims slow - very obviously a whale in the ocean, swimming slow and surfacing to blow now and again... a common (well known) image.

at night - not so commonly seen but easy to imagine. im assuming that because it is in the same stanza, it relates to the whale swimming at night.


you crowd me
and the elephant shadow - here i'm kinda stumped. who is 'you'? and who is the LS 'me'? easy to picture the elephant shadow... oh wait... is a whale sometimes called an elephant? and as it is night 'you' and 'me' are in a boat on the sea VERY close to the whale... only 'you' are perhaps clinging for dear life onto 'me'.

talk about a wild imagination here...

i totally blame my haiku learning for making me think like this.

 

[Last_Kiss]

Do you mean me? I meant to present these two poems, in particular the second one (the short one) to focus specifically on images rather than on poetry in general. The "meaning" of the poem is most of the time really not as important as it would seem from the discussions of poetry or from the critical essays, etc. Most of the time the meaning is simple. It is not the goal of poetry to overwhelm the public with a display of "intellectual" fireworks.

(Great poets actually are sharp, very intelligent, but they do not flash their wit in the text, or at least it's very rare. The author's intelligence, when significant, stays in the background).

Okay. I guess I'm putting off my phone call for a minute.

I'll have to disagree with you, Senna Jawa. The meaning of ANY poem is important. I started off as a reader, not a writer as most people did, and I want to know what's going on when I read. I want details. I want to be there, see, feel, smell, ect.

You said "Most of the time the meaning is simple." Well if so, then why aren't people getting it or saying anything, guessing, ect? (okay, now wildsweetone is, but) Why did you question Tara to figure out the poem? Maybe Tara was right in what she said.

It's simple. Newbie to this forum or not, you're giving mixed messages, and it very obvious.

 

[Senna Jawa]

just thinking about the poem... where in the world would you be if you could see hills basked in sun, a whale at night and an elephant's shadow?

The poem is a juxtaposition of two disjoint scenes. But since you have asked, that place is called poetry.

Regards,

Senna Jawa​

PS. Perhaps that place is not "in the world" but "out of this world".

 

[champagne1982]

The poem is a juxtaposition of two disjoint scenes. But since you have asked, that place is called poetry.

Regards,

Senna Jawa​

PS. Perhaps that place is not "in the world" but "out of this world".

Howling at the moon ...

 

[Senna Jawa]

* * *
​

where hills
basked in sun
one whale swims slow
at night

you crowd me
and the elephant shadow
​

H. California
1991-04-15




********************************************

Before I take off I am checking a few threads, to make sure that I provide comments which I may owe some participants in the poems related threads. (Champagne made me aware that this may be the case here or there. I apologize to everybody if I leave a debt behind me).

The above poem is straightforward and would be easily absorbed by readers if the simple poetic culture was common around as it used to be ten centuries ago in Iceland or twelve centuries and more ago in China, or a few centuries ago in Japan, etc. Anyway:

The message of this poem is minimal. It expresses a certain emotion without even making it too specific. And that's good. Different people can identify with the poem when it doesn't tell them too much, there is no imposition.

The emotion, vaguely expressed in the poem, is based on the image:

During the day each of the hills of the chain was seen separately. Some were nearer, some further away. But when it became dark the depth perception was lost and the hills merged into one--now you could see only the total silhouette, which looks like a huge whale, and there even may be an illusion that it is slowly swimming.

Also, when two people walk together, their shadows merge into one, which may look like a shadow of an elephant.

This image tells you that this two people are close one to another (but somehow--the poem says--LS is tired and longs to be alone).

Regards,

Senna Jawa
​

PS. Let me know (but soon) if you feel that I should still respond to a thread about a poem. (I'll answer the mentioned champagne post from another thread, just let me have an extra day and I'll do it).

 

[Liar]

The above poem is straightforward and would be easily absorbed by readers if the simple poetic culture was common around as it used to be ten centuries ago in Iceland or twelve centuries and more ago in China, or a few centuries ago in Japan, etc. Anyway:

The message of this poem is minimal. It expresses a certain emotion without even making it too specific. And that's good. Different people can identify with the poem when it doesn't tell them too much, there is no imposition.

The emotion, vaguely expressed in the poem, is based on the image:

During the day each of the hills of the chain was seen separately. Some were nearer, some further away. But when it became dark the depth perception was lost and the hills merged into one--now you could see only the total silhouette, which looks like a huge whale, and there even may be an illusion that it is slowly swimming.

Also, when two people walk together, their shadows merge into one, which may look like a shadow of an elephant.

This image tells you that this two people are close one to another (but somehow--the poem says--LS is tired and longs to be alone).

A question then: Doesn't the poem then require a whole lot of inference? Doesn't it assume a whole lot of common preconcepton between the reader and rthe writer? That individual hills can look like one, unbroken ridge in the night, that I know. But the similarity to specifically a whale is as far away from my mind as an image can be, and unless having it spelled out in explanation, like you did, I would never have guessed it. Same thing with elephant shadow. If I ever see a shadow of two people resembling an elephant, I'll let you know, but for now, the thought of it never entered my mind (until you mentioned it, and it still sounds alien to me). Which only made the poem obscure, instead of clear and meaningful, to this reader.

If it had been somethig like "one ridge stand at night" and "our common shadow", it would have been less eloquent, perhaps, but would communicate without me having to share a not entirely common chain of associations with the poet.

 

[Last_Kiss]

I never got the images mentioned from the poem or even thought about it but I like your imagination, Senna.


"Also, when two people walk together, their shadows merge into one, which may look like a shadow of an elephant."

Thank you for coming back and explaining. I was waiting.

 

[flyguy69]

Also, when two people walk together, their shadows merge into one, which may look like a shadow of an elephant.

I've often noticed this when I walk with my partner.
"Look, honey, our shadow looks just like an elephant!"

She's always afraid we'll get arrested, though.



And be honest, Senna: this poem is about titfucking.

where hills
basked in sun
one whale swims slow
at night

you crowd me
and the elephant shadow

 

[champagne1982]

Howling at the moon ...

I prefer my vision. When you look at a full, harvest moon as it rises over a ridge, a couple of the seas on that beatific face can flow together and grant you a peek at shading resembling an elephant with its trunk raised.

There are also mountains and humps on the moon, that bask in the full sun when we are in shadow. ...