For the Readers

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: awful spelling

Feel free to spell   awful mindful etc.   your way and I'll keep spelling them the English way.

Oh, yes... like awful really means full of awe. You might want to enlighten us on this too...

 

[Senna Jawa]

Sorry about that.

And still you're avoiding the real question. Typical.

I will not have conversations about poetry in anything less than a friendly atmosphere.

Regards,

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Pure junk, there is no poetry in it whatsoever.

Really friendly. Bukowski would have loved it...

 

[karmadog]

Actually, that's pretty much what Bukowski would have said. He had mostly awful things to say about other poets. He probably wouldn't have said it about his own, though.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

And what a good thing it would have been. I think friendly cesspools make terrible enviroments for conversation. Give me a hostile fresh water rapid any day.

 

[Senna Jawa]

No, he liked "Melancholia"

Karmadog, I said nothing about melancholia. I didn't say that I like it, I didn't say that I don't. I only mentioned "melancholia" as some evidence supporting the opinion that Buk was less humane than the great majority of great poets. Consider the late, great poet, known mainly in the Internet world, Michael McNeilley. He was as "macho" as Buk, as direct as Buk, but consistenly humane. I knew others like this too. It is not a question of using brutal phrasing and similar. These other poets did it too. (Occasionally I did it myself). It is a much more profound issue of respecting another human being, and of not being full of oneself (which in practice is not good for your art either).

"Melancholia" can be viewed in two ways or one can say on two levels. Buk's admirers would say that this is a strong, honest, personal poem, that author speaks to us directly in his own words, that he is presenting himself naked, in the most honest way. Then despite the admiration this poem has weaknesses. The very first two lines would have to be considered a beginner's effort:

  the history of melancholia
  includes all of us.

The author either knows little about poetry or is so full of himself that he thinks that when HE writes like this then it's ok because he knows what he's doing, because bla-bla... -- nonsense.

Then the rest of the poem is ok except for that low level stanza, low artistically, low in the humane terms:

  I should have kicked the redhead
  in the ass
  where her brains and her bread and
  butter are
  at ...

Artistically such pseudocolorful expressions are too easy, too cheap. This is not art but an abuse of art.

Thus if we accepted the way the Bukowski's admirers would applaud this poem then we would be forced to judge this poem as weak.

But, against uncritical Buk's followers, let me play devil's advocate. I will assume that it is not Bukowski himself saying all these things in the poem (despite the fact that he would say even worse things in real life). Let's assume that Buk knows better than that, that he is presenting a narrator, a character. Then the poem potentially immediately gains. We can say that the assumed voice of the poem is its plus. The poem then is pretty good but still not strong. The first two lines are now much better or rather much less bad. but they r still poor. Because one thing is to present a character's way of talking and thinking and another is to literally stuff your poem with such poor language. A poem still should be a poem. U, as an author, should only create an illusion of the authentic (perhaps nonpoetic) voice. But when U present a murderer in your poem it doesn't mean that U should kill your readers. By the same token, when U present a boring character, who likes to pronounce his unintereting theories or just talk boringly, it doesn't mean that U have to bore your readers to death. On the contrary, good authors can do it in an interesting way, often in a very funny way.

Remark. There is no such thing in poetry as interesting views.
Poetically, spelling out any views is boring, not poetic. The "fact" that the speaker speaks in a high or low pitched voice, that s/he speaks rapidly or slowly, that his nose or her boobs are huge, etc., all such fact are potentially interesting in poetry. But views? No.

Also, the poem, assuming its indirectness, feels incomplete due again to that "ugly" stanza which I have quoted above. The ugliness comes from the ugly character, and in itself this uglinness is artistically rather ok (once again: assuming that it comes from a character). But a counterpoint is missing. It hangs in the thin air and there is nothing, no material is provided for any thoughts. I don't want any author's statements, mind U, I would be against such an artistic foolishness; but to present something unethical and just to leave it is not artistic. Because art is about human emotions, about sensitivity.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

as "mucho" as ...

Sorry, make it "macho".

(Never mind. I have corrected that typo. At the time I didn't pay attention to the edit feature. It is great for fixing typos. But it would be better if the edit and delete option didn't exist on the discussions boards since such an option is prone to manipulations. The edit and delete option may amount to less responsibility for one's words. Regards, Senna Jawa, 2002-06-20).

 

[karmadog]

OK, fine.

You have well defined views of poetry, SJ. Much more clearly defined than mine, so I will not trouble myself with an argument I cannot "win". I will just disagree and move on to the original reason for this thread. Sharing things I've found that others might be interested in.

My find for the day is Paul Durcan. He is an Irish poet of aobut fifty eight years. He has a style that I'm not familiar with, so I'll be reading this stuff over as I have time.

This page has links to several of his poems.

Also check out this one: The Cabinet Table

"Alice Gunn is a cleaner woman
Down at Government Buildings,
And after seven o'clock Mass last night
(Isn't it a treat to be able to go to Sunday Mass
On a Saturday! To sit down to Saturday Night TV
Knowing you've fulfilled your Sunday obligations!)"

I didn't see where this one was going, but it made me laugh.

If you click the link to the Paul Durcan page make sure you read "Grief" and "In the Tram". Really good stuff.

 

[karmadog]

Is anybody reading this? Should I bother? If you are getting anything out of this, let me know, if not, I won't waste space.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm reading it, K-dog.

Thine effords are not in vain. I was thinking of posting a few links myself actually.

 

[Guest]

Phew! I thought there was just an echo in here.

Please do. I am always interested in finding a new poet.

karmadog

 

[karmadog]

I seem to be on an Irish poet kick due, I think, to the excellent series on Ancient Ireland on PBS. How strange that the Irish are NOT Celtic. According to the series, the Celts never invaded Ireland but their language did. Perhaps they peaceably moved in, or through trading of goods and ideas, the Ancient Irish adopted the language. Very interesting.

Anyhow.

When You Are Old by William Butler Yeats

"When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book,..."

Here is a great big page of poetry from MIT, but the one I was interested in (natch) was by Rory Brennan. Just click his name in the list of poets. The poem is called "Skin Deep". There's also another one by Yeats.

"The skinhead sycamore seems set to bud.
Last year two agile tinkers scaled
Its horny back, lopped off its sixties locks..."

 

[karmadog]

Odalisque by Derek Webster

Did you ever come across a line that you wish you wrote?

I've had lovers-who has not?
Virgins horde their fruits. They rot.

Noon by Rosanna Warren

I crouch on the warm skull
of New Hampshire

You might enjoy the rest of this site. There are also a couple of poems by Louise Gluck, Chinua Achebe, and a short story from Alice Hoffman.

fiduciary by Randall Mann

the relationship between
blackbird and fencepost, between
the cow and its egret, the field
and wildflowers overrunning the field--
so little depends upon their trust.

Requirements for an Addiction to Movies by Connie Deanovich

she attracts birds to her garden
with a giant projection of a black-and-white bread crumb

I hope you guys enjoy these. I did.

 

[karmadog]

some interesting stuff.

I found a couple of interesting things while wandering the web tonight. First up is an essay from an English teacher with a new way to teach Comp 101

How I Found Murder and Learned to Love English 101 by Jane Paznik-Bondarin

I've been teaching freshman composition for more than twenty years, so I have often thought about murder. I'm always the killer; the victims vary

I wish I'd had her for Comp I. It also might serve as a primer for those who want to write their first mystery story.

Now some poetry.

The Schlitz Malt Liquor Bull by Andrew Hudgins

When Daddy kills a tall-boy,
he holds his fingers up like horns,
bellows, paws the rug.
"I'm coming after you," he warns.

Funny and kind of sad with an ambivalent tone towards "Daddy".

Sermon of an Elder Catfish by Miles Garrett Watson

Watch where you're going, boys--
Light doesn't dance down here.
Our eyes grow big as half-dollars,
But we still can't see a fucking thing.

Another one with a nice payoff. Fry 'im up and chow down, I say.

The Curtain Birds by Ben Miller

They couldn't keep curtains on the windows because the
curtains kept flying out the windows and becoming birds. Six
of
these slow floppy creatures were visible on a lower branch of
the
elm right now, breasts bold with anchors and paisley slibbets.

This one is kind of long and I can't say that I know exactly what Miller is saying, but I sure like this beginning. The structure of the poem got screwed up in the copying and pasting so don't blame the poet for the ugly look of this quote.

Four Poems About Sleep by Odilia Rivera

I went to sleep and pulled the dirt
over my shoulders

I wish I'd thought of that. The next line would be very unlikely to come from me, but you'll just have to look at the rest of the poem to find out what I wouldn't say.

You know I frequently find some of these online mags or versions of print that have poetry that is not the equal (in my opinion) of some of you. Most of these sites have submission guidelines (hint hint).

 

[WickedEve]

Re: some interesting stuff.

Four Poems About Sleep by Odilia Rivera

I wish I'd thought of that. The next line would be very unlikely to come from me, but you'll just have to look at the rest of the poem to find out what I wouldn't say.

I just read the first poem and it's excellent. Thanks for the reviews!

 

[karmadog]

One witty bitch (bitchy wit?)

I found a site that has a ton of Dorothy Parker's poetry. She may not be the greatest poet that ever lived, but she'll probably make you laugh even though her poems are mostly about heartbreak, suicide, and death.

Dorothy Parker

This poem is pretty representative of her mix of depression and wit.

"Star Light, Star Bright-"

Star, that gives a gracious dole,
What am I to choose?
Oh, will it be a shriven soul,
Or little buckled shoes?

Shall I wish a wedding-ring,
Bright and thin and round,
Or plead you send me covering-
A newly spaded mound?

Gentle beam, shall I implore
Gold, or sailing-ships,
Or beg I hate forevermore
A pair of lying lips?

Swing you low or high away,
Burn you hot or dim;
My only wish I dare not say-
Lest you should grant me him.

 

[karmadog]

When hockey players...

write poetry. This poem was written by the (then) assistant coach and the video guy for the Red Wings just before they started their run to the Stanley Cup.

Both were NHL defenseman, one of them (Kocur) was one of the most feared enforcers in the league.

I'm not providing the link because I think it's a good poem, but because I've never heard of a hockey player writing poetry before.

Untitled by Dave Lewis and Joey Kocur

In October we began a trip for the year,
The outcome uncertain, but we knew there'd be beer.

That's the best line. I suspect Kocur wrote that one.