Forms for the Novice

[unpredictablebijou]

it's a start.

I didn't mean it. I was just sucking up, since I suspect you're a member of the Oval.

Or was that the Dodecahedron? I can't remember.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Y'know what's worser even than a poet who never moves past rhymed unmetered couplets? A novice poet who disdains form entirely, believing that it is pointless, and claims that as long as his deepest and most cliched feelings have line divisions, he's written a poem.

*laugh*

That's a favorite comment from a very talented young poet friend. "That's not free verse; that's just a hyperactive return key."

(He writes wonderfully interesting verse in all manner of forms, overt and subtle.)

Oh, and Paul Fussell's Poetic Meter and Poetic Form is just stunning, stunning work. It's intense but incredible. Want to get so excited about caesura that you want to grab people and shake them? Read Fussell. God, he's good. He shows you depths of sophistication in the basic poetic elements that are absolutely revelatory.

 

[BlackShanglan]

you ask, well, does the action I'm describing, the jump, merit a shift in meter? Does it communicate the way a horse shortens his stride, just before he prepares to clear an obstacle, or for that matter the way a man will shift his rhythm as he approaches climax? And you also notice that there's an internal rhyme created by "tide" and "ride", and you ask yourself: self? Is that a distraction, or does it actually assist the way the lines roll into each other in a sort of enjambment that echoes the steady stride of a horse?

Now why do I like this example so much?

No, it's not just ego. It reminds me of a favorite set of lines as well:

'Tis not enough no harshness gives offense,
The sound must seem an echo to the sense.
Soft is the strain when Zephyr gently blows,
And the smooth stream in smoother numbers flows;
But when loud surges lash the sounding shore,
The hoarse, rough verse should like the torrent roar.
When Ajax strives, some rock's vast weight to throw,
The line too labors, and the words move slow;
No so, when swift Camilla scours the plain,
Flies o'er th' unbending corn, and skims along the main.

-- Alexander Pope, "An Essay on Criticism"

God, I love that man when he's showing off. Reading it aloud is a fresh delight every time.

Deutch's definition of poetry has been a watchword for me for many years: "A poem cannot be paraphrased without injury to its meaning." I have taken that to mean that I need to be able to defend every single word choice within a piece.

Ah, it's good to see that New Criticism has not entirely been demolished. It has so much to say to the practice of poetry, especially. I agree entirely.

 

[hmmnmm]

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[Tzara]

I won't bother trying to comment on individual responses. There are too many well thought out comments in the thread for me to do so anyway. I'll simply barge into probably repeating what someone else has already said, better than I can, but as I like to talk I'll say it again anyway.

The core thing about learning writing is learning how to use words and language effectively. How one uses words, or at least what are the salient things to keep in mind when using words, are somewhat different depending upon what kind of writing you are doing. Someone writing a scientific article uses words differently from a journalist, who uses them differently from a fiction writer, who uses them differently from a poet.

Poets, much more than even fiction writers, need to understand sound and rhythm. Writing form poetry helps with that. If you can't hear iambic tetrameter, practicing writing it helps train your ear. Same with rhyme, slant rhyme, whatever. You need to play with it to hear it in your head--to give you skills. If you don't have the skills, it won't matter how well you have conceived your subject. You'll write something more like journalism than poetry.

I would agree that probably the absolute worst bad poetry is rhymed (and not consisently metrical). Bad free verse is boring. Bad rhymed poetry is excruciating.

Why? Because there are so many more things to control in rhymed and metrical verse. You have to get the meter right and consistent with whatever pattern you've chosen without sounding like a metronome. The rhymes have to fall naturally. If slant, they can't sound forced or stretched. And then on top of all of that, you have to actually say something coherent. That's fucking hard to do.

But to my mind, at least you're thinking about word choice. You have to. In really bad free verse, you just free write and tap the Enter key occasionally. There is even less thought involved in that than writing truly bad rhymed verse.

To my mind, the single biggest problem with people writing really bad poems is that they think just spilling their guts (or heart or, ick, soul) into words makes a poem. That makes a fucking diary entry people!

Sorry. Pet peeve.

Anyway, my thought is that form implies thought and thought on arranging words is a good thing.

 

[starrkers]

My small, novice take:

If you don't understand the "rules" of poetry (ie forms), how can you break them effectively?

 

[hmmnmm]

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[wildsweetone]

This is helpful and well said.

Well, in music, you have your sounds, your rhythms, timbre.
And you could have your guitar and a book with chords and scales. And you could divide your time between the joy of exploration as well as exercise and study.

If I take a blank sheet of paper and sit outside, and two birds splash in the birdbath, first of all the scene should capture my attention so that recording/expressing it in words is a secondary concern. If I am attracted to record/express the scene in words? My first interest is the scene or the meaning of the scene itself. Whether the words will be journalistic, scientific, prose narrative, lyrical, or poetic is the writer's choice (maybe?). On the one hand the scene may be begging for a haiku-like treatment, but if I don't know how to write a haiku, I lose that possibility. On the other, if I'm more worried about fitting the scene into the proper syllables than the scene itself, something is lost.

So again, WSO's idea of marrying the two still seems like a good one.
Granted, easier to sit here and talk about than to do.

And if I may return to some of the original idea, I contemplated studying a few forms but did a double take when I saw the long list. What do I do? Just pick one at random and see what it leads to? Or just work with rhythms and sounds, rhymes?

how about this angle... what poet do you enjoy reading most? do you have a favourite from Out There? what form do they use? hunt out the formula for the form and see if you can emulate one of their poems.

(the more you talk, the less time you have to write. )

 

[hmmnmm]

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[unpredictablebijou]

Let me just barge in, once again, late at night, to mention that I fucking love this place. These are my people. I have found them.

So many good points tonight. WSO, I haven't quoted you directly, but a marriage of the two sets of values, that is, inspiration and form, is exactly what I'm arguing for here.

And Shanglan blew my mind reminding me about Pope's forms. There is, indeed, a truly correct, truly brilliant way to write in actual rhymed couplets. It can be done.

But it is NOT for the novice. It's way too easy to do it awfully, excruciatingly.

I often differentiate between "poetry" and "journaling". Here's the riff I've done more than once in my ancient life: If you have something deep and meaningful to express about your currently failing relationship, or what a great orgy you just had, or whatever, and you happen to do it in rhymed unmetered couplets as so many do, then fine. Do that thing. Express yourself, by god. Nothing wrong with that.

But as soon as you decide that someone else should see it, you have a responsibility to your audience. Then it's time to learn the craft of communication. Otherwise, you're just making someone else stare at your navel, and that's no fun for them unless they can relate something personal of their own to it.

That's enough of that. Sleep well, you poets across the globe. Salty, vivid dreams.

bijou

 

[Tathagata]

apples and oranges.

the thread was directed at "novice" poets, not advanced poets.

99% of the novice poets I've seen who begin with rhymed form never get past it.

If you want to master anything you have to learn all aspects of it.

Music, martial arts , painting etc.

You have to know what the rules are in order to ignore them.
I've also seen people come in here and think anything they write in any way is poetry.
That would be the free form equivilent of rhyming poetry I suspect



and If they never get past it perhaps they aren't meant to be poets.

Some one can study violin or drawing for 20 years and not have enough sense to know he doesn't posses the skills to do it as anything but an avocation.

Pat you have a thing against rhyming poetry and thats not an accusation, just an observance.
That is a preference and I will admit most rhyming poetry written by
" beginners" is bad but it's because they are beginners!
So is most free form poetry by beginners too.
Have a look and some of the " erotic" poetry submitted here each day in the free form mode

I hate to see anyone discourage a beginner from getting as much knowledge as they can and trying out as many different styles as they can so they can find their feet.

Wouldn't be any Tom Waits and Chuck Berry if there wasn't any Beethoven and Mozart


and as far as " looking like poetry"
there is so much emphasis place on " enjambment" and " ending on the 'power word" and "line breaks" in free form poetry it has it's own snobby and, to me, nonsensical rules too.
Some of the places people break lines lose the whole flow as far as I'm concerned.
and they are obvious and intentional and that in itself is an effort to make it appear important and deep and thus " look like a poem"

I repeat
Mastering anything means starting with basics and following through.
and if you get stuck writing awful rhyming poetry, or awful free verse poetry, then you can continue if you wish, theres no rule that says you can't have a hobby you aren't good at if you enjoy it.

 

[TheRainMan]

Pat you have a thing against rhyming poetry and thats not an accusation, just an observance

that’s absolutely true.

i also have a thing against disco. i prefer rock n’ roll.

i have a thing against cubism. i prefer impressionism.

i have a thing against English food. i prefer Italian.

i have a thing against martial arts. i prefer peace, and when that can’t be achieved and defense is needed, a long-range weapon.

it’s all a matter of taste. i’m pretty sure most rock guitarist’s dislike disco, most Italian cooks dislike meat pies.

i do not think one needs to practice form to become a good poet. i know it has helped many, as they have told me so. it has never helped me, but I do not deny writing form can assist a writer in improving. i just think novices are best advised to wait until they are more skilled to attempt that type of writing, because it is so difficult to do well and requires skills that novices do not yet have – and if they never have the necessary skills? as you say, they weren’t meant to be poets and can do it simply for enjoyment. and what’s wrong with that?

it’s not about discouraging anyone. it’s about what i, or anyone who speaks their thoughts, thinks is the best way to go about something in order to become better at it.

i don’t equate form poetry with classical music at all, nor Wordsworth with Mozart. classical music to me is more like jazz, like free form.

if a novice poet wants to go back to the beginning, to the roots, my advice as to the best place to start would be the old Chinese poets. i think that’s where the foundations of poetry are, the basics, the building blocks.

good discussion . . . and now I’m headed off to Vegas – plenty of basics to find there.

have fun, all.

 

[Liar]

and as far as " looking like poetry"
there is so much emphasis place on " enjambment" and " ending on the 'power word" and "line breaks" in free form poetry it has it's own snobby and, to me, nonsensical rules too.

The monkey makes sense,
there's much non
sense

masked as free form poetry.

And
looking like poetry
it does,

until you read.

 

[Tathagata]

i do not think one needs to practice form to become a good poet. i know it has helped many, as they have told me so. it has never helped me, but I do not deny writing form can assist a writer in improving. i just think novices are best advised to wait until they are more skilled to attempt that type of writing, because it is so difficult to do well and requires skills that novices do not yet have – and if they never have the necessary skills? as you say, they weren’t meant to be poets and can do it simply for enjoyment. and what’s wrong with that?

It's ok if they do it for enjoyment but just not here where people will tell them that the worst thing they can do is write form poetry?


as for the rest disco, meat pies, italian, I don't care about all that.
Those aren't " disciplines" you undertake

I would also argue that many
"Rock and Rollers" have played disco..have a listen to
" Miss You" by the Stones sometime.

I've studied various martial arts for 32 years.
Your reduction of it to either
" peace or a long range weapon" misses the whole point.
but it's a point I'm not sure I could explain to you.

My comparison was this :If you are serious about learning something you must study all aspects of it

i don’t equate form poetry with classical music at all, nor Wordsworth with Mozart. classical music to me is more like jazz, like free form.

and to write that free form requires hours of boring scales
practicing things that are hard

if a novice poet wants to go back to the beginning, to the roots, my advice as to the best place to start would be the old Chinese poets. i think that’s where the foundations of poetry are, the basics, the building blocks.

highly stylized and many many rules
but an interesting thought
enjoy Vegas

 

[Tathagata]

and by the way, who and /or what decides when one is no longer a " novice"?

ya know, incase I want to attempt a sonnet or something?
using only end words that rhyme with spleen.

 

[TheRainMan]

as usual, i'm sitting around a bunch of bags while someone else puts the finishing touches on her hair. gotta love it.

music isn't a discipline? painting? ethnic cooking? martial arts? --

yes, i've heard the Stones disco efforts. hard to take, for me. i always assumed they did it for the money.

as far as when one is no longer a novice, that's a gray area, like most other things. maybe one recognizes it themselves, maybe they need it pointed out. don't know, really.

i like your sig line quote -- You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case. -- applies to almost anything, i guess -- poetry included.

ok. here we go again. toward the door, toward being a little bit poorer.

pax.

P


oh -- P.S. -- i am dying to see that sonnet.

 

[Tathagata]

music isn't a discipline? painting? ethnic cooking? martial arts? --

music - yes
disco- no
painting- yes absolutely
ethnic cooking - yes
meat pies - no

yes, I've heard the Stones disco efforts. hard to take, for me. i always assumed they did it for the money.

i think they did it because they admire anything with a rhythm
disco is nothing if not rhythmic

as far as when one is no longer a novice, that's a gray area, like most other things. maybe one recognizes it themselves, maybe they need it pointed out. don't know, really.

yes but it's who does the pointing
there's the rub

conversely if one feels as though they are ready to attempt form poetry who am I to argue?
It may be horrible, but ultimately it's their decision

i like your sig line quote -- You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case. -- applies to almost anything, i guess -- poetry included.

Yes it does
You may be there and I may be here
You just do what you do and see who lines up I guess


enjoy

 

[Angeline]

Actually, Some Girls is a great album, definitely not a throw-away by the Stones. Miss You is very disco influenced (but also very jazzy). I really dislike disco, but I think it's a great song about Mick's breakup with Bianca, who was quite a disco queen at the time. Very involved in the Studio 54 scene. And it has Beast of Burden, which is also a great (non-discoey) song.

What does this have to do with form poetry again?

 

[Tathagata]

Actually, Some Girls is a great album, definitely not a throw-away by the Stones. Miss You is very disco influenced (but also very jazzy). I really dislike disco, but I think it's a great song about Mick's breakup with Bianca, who was quite a disco queen at the time. Very involved in the Studio 54 scene. And it has Beast of Burden, which is also a great (non-discoey) song.

What does this have to do with form poetry again?

ok then " Emotional Rescue"


I love the Some Girls album

I'm sure we could make lists of rock bands who did disco but then we'd have to decide who was rock...



and stop throwing jazz into everything

 

[Angeline]

ok then " Emotional Rescue"


I love the Some Girls album

I'm sure we could make lists of rock bands who did disco but then we'd have to decide who was rock...



and stop throwing jazz into everything

I'm not throwing it in! What about that tenor solo in Miss You?

Anyway it's a specious argument to say they did it for the money. Who didn't? I hardly think Mick and Keith thought they were lowering their standards when they recorded that song.

 

[Tathagata]

I'm not throwing it in! What about that tenor solo in Miss You?

Anyway it's a specious argument to say they did it for the money. Who didn't? I hardly think Mick and Keith thought they were lowering their standards when they recorded that song.

I always thought " Beast of Burden" should have been recorded by the Temptations.

Anyway by that point I'm sure money wasn't what was choosing their material
they did a few " formula" songs and the rest they could do whatever they wanted too
remember..Some Girls came out in the midst of the new wave / punk movement 1978 when Elvis Costello and the Clash were on the radio
the LAST thing anyone wanted to hear was disco
I think " Shattered" was suppose to be the big hit, Miss You was a surprise


anyway enough
I have to eat lunch

 

[Angeline]

I always thought " Beast of Burden" should have been recorded by the Temptations.

Anyway by that point I'm sure money wasn't what was choosing their material
they did a few " formula" songs and the rest they could do whatever they wanted too
remember..Some Girls came out in the midst of the new wave / punk movement 1978 when Elvis Costello and the Clash were on the radio
the LAST thing anyone wanted to hear was disco
I think " Shattered" was suppose to be the big hit, Miss You was a surprise


anyway enough
I have to eat lunch

I totally forgot about Shattered. Now that is very discoey, but good. Shadoobie.

Have a nice lunch, monkeleh mine.

 

[FifthFlower]

Building the Case: Why You Should Keep Writing Free Verse

Now of late I've wondered about actually looking into the discipline of form.

He'd like to taste the "discipline" of form.
I should have told him of the metered line,
But said, because betrayal begs a storm,
"Your free verse wife still sucks--I hear, she's fine!"
(He might do better than the best of mine!)
Bored readers, faithless, looking for a whore,
Get hard when teased. I plan to tease them more.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

He'd like to taste the "discipline" of form.
I should have told him of the metered line,
But said, because betrayal begs a storm,
"Your free verse wife still sucks--I hear, she's fine!"
(He might do better than the best of mine!)
Bored readers, faithless, looking for a whore,
Get hard when teased. I plan to tease them more.

that is rockin'.

bijou

 

[champagne1982]

I think WSO had the challenge where we were supposed to pick a formula in which we were most uncomfortable or in which we were unfamiliar with and write the poem.

Free verse is that for me. It is the most difficult formula to write since there aren't any rules defining and limiting prosidy. With free verse I have the world of language and technique open to me and that is frightening. When is just enough reached? At what level can I decide too much is, in fact, too much?

Writing a good poem is an awesome challenge in itself, writing a good poem that goes beyond an exercise in form, could be one of the most difficult writing experiences you'll find.