Forms, freeverse, flights of fancy, and the beginning poet

[champagne1982]

I have also seen the Pantoum presented without rhyme.

I'm not sure that would be a traditional form in that case. The pantoum is a series of quatrains with repetition. A quatrain has a rhyme scheme of either abab or abba, so to be true to form, wouldn't it be neccessary to rhyme the poem?

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Here's a teaching pantoum I wrote around 18 months ago:

Pantoum

this line shall rhyme with the line last
this shall sing with the rhyme again
the rule for the third is one just lain
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past

this shall sing with the rhyme again
with luck the verse moves quick and fast
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past
without the poet bleeding and slain

with luck the verse moves quick and fast
no chance for those who weep and remain
without the poet bleeding and slain
a body's work an anthology, vast.

no chance for those who weep and remain
actors no more a poet's cast
a body's work an anthology, vast
which even gone sings the rhyme again.

Has anyone told you you're a genius yet or am I the first?

 

[annaswirls]

cool! Thanks!

I am a bit confused about the rhyme scheme though, it is different than the sample our instructor gave us.....grrrr


His rhyme was

A
A
B
B

The lines went like this:

1
2
3
4

2 (repeat of verse 1's second line)
5
4 (repeat of verse 1's fourth line)
6

5(repeat of verse 2's second line)
7
6(repeat of verse 2's fourth line)
8

Here's a teaching pantoum I wrote around 18 months ago:

Pantoum

this line shall rhyme with the line last
this shall sing with the rhyme again
the rule for the third is one just lain
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past

this shall sing with the rhyme again
with luck the verse moves quick and fast
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past
without the poet bleeding and slain

with luck the verse moves quick and fast
no chance for those who weep and remain
without the poet bleeding and slain
a body's work an anthology, vast.

no chance for those who weep and remain
actors no more a poet's cast
a body's work an anthology, vast
which even gone sings the rhyme again.

 

[champagne1982]

I have also seen the Pantoum presented without rhyme.

I discovered through some recent reading that yes, you can present a quatrain without rhyme. It is called a tetrastitch, which means "to walk four."

cool! Thanks!

I am a bit confused about the rhyme scheme though, it is different than the sample our instructor gave us.....grrr

Anna, I suggest you look up the quatrain form. You'll see that since the pantoum requirement is for a series of quatrains this allows for choice in which rhyme scheme you decide on. I think you should be allowed some leeway in your own pantoum, as long as you can tell your instructor exactly which quatrain form you used to write it.

 

[champagne1982]

I'm not sure that would be a traditional form in that case. The pantoum is a series of quatrains with repetition. A quatrain has a rhyme scheme of either abab or abba, so to be true to form, wouldn't it be neccessary to rhyme the poem?

I have entered into madness by quoting myself.

I need to apologize in my misleading remarks here though. A quatrain can have as many rhyme schemes as there are lines to write them. I think as long as you have 4 lines of verse, you can call them quatrains.

This would mean that a pantoum has no real set rhyme scheme but instead, the formula is dependant on the line pattern.

 

[annaswirls]

I discovered through some recent reading that yes, you can present a quatrain without rhyme. It is called a tetrastitch, which means "to walk four."



Anna, I suggest you look up the quatrain form. You'll see that since the pantoum requirement is for a series of quatrains this allows for choice in which rhyme scheme you decide on. I think you should be allowed some leeway in your own pantoum, as long as you can tell your instructor exactly which quatrain form you used to write it.

Thanks, I just got a bit confused as your teaching poem mentions the rhyme pattern and I took it too literally


One issue is now that I know what the guy likes, I find myself trying to write towards that style and I do not like the poems he has presented to us, for the most part, as genius.

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

I was told, that once upon a time people had intelligent discourse here. Glad to see this thread pulled up, glad to see intelligent discourse happening again.
Nothing else to add, 'cause I'm not that bright.

 

[annaswirls]

oh damn not ready to share it yet

 

[Liar]

okay I searched the forum for pantoum and this is what I found. I have to write one by next week. God help me.


Stanza 1:

Line 1
Line 2
Line 3
Line 4

Stanza 2:

Line 5 (repeat of line 2 in stanza 1)
Line 6 (new line)
Line 7 (repeat of line 4 in stanza 1)
Line 8 (new line)

Stanza 3/Last Stanza (This is the format for the last stanza regardless of how many preceding stanzas exist):

Line 9 (line 2 of the previous stanza)
Line 10 (line 3 of the first stanza)
Line 11 (line 4 of the previous stanza)
Line 12 (line 1 of the first stanza)

That's just perverted in every sense of the word. What a sickenly restricting and stifling form. *shudder*

I wish you the best of luck, and shall admire you greatly when you get it working.

 

[Tzara]

Anna, I suggest you look up the quatrain form. You'll see that since the pantoum requirement is for a series of quatrains this allows for choice in which rhyme scheme you decide on. I think you should be allowed some leeway in your own pantoum, as long as you can tell your instructor exactly which quatrain form you used to write it.

My Handbook of Poetic Form says:

The Western version of a pantoum is a poem of indefinite length made up of stanzas whose four lines are repeated in a pattern: lines 2 and 4 of each stanza are repeated as lines 1 and 3 of the next stanza, and so on...​

It then goes on to say that the final stanza may have the "wrap" option back to the first stanza, but that that is optional. It also indicates rhyme is optional.

Lewis Turco, in The Book of Forms, is much more strict, as he usually is. He indicates a rhyme pattern: ABAB BCBC CDCD.... and says that the poem is "usually" in iambic tetrameter or pentameter.

As with most forms, there seems to be significant leeway in how restrictive the form actually is in practice.

 

[champagne1982]

I think anna's instructor is a sadomasochistic monster. Imagine, requiring the final wrap annnnnnnd then reading all of the poems the students write. Mercy

 

[annaswirls]

That's just perverted in every sense of the word. What a sickenly restricting and stifling form. *shudder*

I wish you the best of luck, and shall admire you greatly when you get it working.

I actually had a wee bit of fun with it today... I can see how people become obsessed with form. It is like those Soduku (sp) puzzles or something...thank goodness there are all kinds of people with all kinds of brains to keep this world goin' round. My brain does not tend to enjoy the predictability of forms like this. I wrote one today and hope to do another that I can share. I hear they are fun to do with partners. You up for it?

 

[annaswirls]

My Handbook of Poetic Form says:

The Western version of a pantoum is a poem of indefinite length made up of stanzas whose four lines are repeated in a pattern: lines 2 and 4 of each stanza are repeated as lines 1 and 3 of the next stanza, and so on...​

It then goes on to say that the final stanza may have the "wrap" option back to the first stanza, but that that is optional. It also indicates rhyme is optional.

Lewis Turco, in The Book of Forms, is much more strict, as he usually is. He indicates a rhyme pattern: ABAB BCBC CDCD.... and says that the poem is "usually" in iambic tetrameter or pentameter.

As with most forms, there seems to be significant leeway in how restrictive the form actually is in practice.

Thanks Tzara. Most of those that I saw that were identified as "classic" or "great" did not rhyme. Many a time when I read rhyme I want to shred the paper into thin strips with my tiny little claws.

 

[annaswirls]

I think anna's instructor is a sadomasochistic monster. Imagine, requiring the final wrap annnnnnnd then reading all of the poems the students write. Mercy

ah yes, you are such a sweet heart!

actually there are only three of us, not much of a class, hopefully we do not cause him too much pain although he deserves it

 

[annaswirls]

I love this one. Love love love it. I might mimic it for the assignment. This poet wrote this for her daughter.

http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/hacker3.html


IVA'S PANTOUM
by Marilyn Hacker



We pace each other for a long time.
I packed my anger with the beef jerky.
You are the baby on the mountain. I am
in a cold stream where I led you.

I packed my anger with the beef jerky.
You are the woman sticking her tongue out
in a cold stream where I led you.
You are the woman with springwater palms.

You are the woman sticking her tongue out.
I am the woman who matches sounds.
You are the woman with springwater palms.
I am the woman who copies.

You are the woman who matches sounds.
You are the woman who makes up words.
You are the woman who copies
her cupped palm with her fist in clay.

I am the woman who makes up words.
You are the woman who shapes
a drinking bowl with her fist in clay.
I am the woman with rocks in her pockets.

I am the woman who shapes.
I was a baby who knew names.
You are the child with rocks in her pockets.
You are the girl in a plaid dress.

You are the woman who knows names.
You are the baby who could fly.
You are the girl in a plaid dress
upside down on the monkey bars.

You are the baby who could fly
over the moon from a swinging perch
upside down on the monkey bars.
You are the baby who eats meat.

Over the moon from a swinging perch
the feathery goblin calls her sister.
You are the baby who eats meat
the bitch wolf hunts and chews for you.

The feathery goblin calls her sister:
"You are braver than your mother.
The bitch wolf hunts and chews for you.
What are you whining about now?"

You are braver than your mother
and I am not a timid woman:
what are you whining about now?
My palms itch with slick anger,

and I'm not a timid woman.
You are the woman I can't mention;
my palms itch with slick anger.
You are the heiress of scraped knees.

You are the woman I can't mention
to a woman I want to love.
You are the heiress of scraped knees:
scrub them in mountain water.

To a woman, I want to love
women you could turn into
scrub them in mountain water,
stroke their astonishing faces.

Women you could turn into
the scare mask of Bad Mother
stroke their astonishing faces
in the silver-scratched sink mirror.

The scare mask of Bad Mother
crumbles to chunked, pinched clay,
sinks in the silver-scratched mirror.
You are the Little Robber Girl who

crumbles the clay chunks, pinches
her friend, gives her a sharp knife.
You are the Little Robber Girl who
was any witch's youngest daughter.

Our friend gives you a sharp knife,
shows how the useful blades open.
Was any witch's youngest daughter
golden and bold as you? You run and

show how the useful blades open.
You are the baby on the mountain. I am
golden and bold as you. You run and
we pace each other for a long time.

 

[annaswirls]

ooooooooooooo

 

[ghost_girl]

dear KM

Damn! I admire your discipline. But I have read some of your work and I cannot imagine you not allowing yourself any particular type of poetry experience.

Good luck! Im sure you will write some wicked stuff, no matter what form or method you choose, I am just wondering though...


you are taking a pony who can indeed walk, but that pony might want to gallop and you are putting her in a fence in someone's back yard... what a shame

 

[ghost_girl]

cool! Thanks!

I am a bit confused about the rhyme scheme though, it is different than the sample our instructor gave us.....grrrr


His rhyme was

A
A
B
B

The lines went like this:

1
2
3
4

2 (repeat of verse 1's second line)
5
4 (repeat of verse 1's fourth line)
6

5(repeat of verse 2's second line)
7
6(repeat of verse 2's fourth line)
8

Anna!! youre killing me...

know what I would rather do than write a form poem like that?

I would rather be in chem lab, 12 hours a day, doing formulas, at least they offer no emotional variance and that is why my form poetry sucks so badly.

but if anyone can whippit, it will be you

 

[FifthFlower]

Goodbye

I loved you, but you went away.
You said that you would not come back.
"Come back," I know you heard me say.
Your love is everything I lack.

You said that you would not come back.
I loved you, but you went away.
Your love is everything I lack.
"Come back," I know you heard me say.

 

[ishtat]

daughter told me how one girl she knew wrote nothing but strict forms for a year before her teacher allowed her to use freeverse. daughter said that this girl's freeverse was wonderful because of it.

My feeling is that you have a good point but am not convinced that it must be true in all instances. Your daughter's friend may well have written fine free verse without this exercise.I suspect not, but am unwilling to accept that one method must be suitable for everyone.

However, I will readily admit to contributing significantly to the 99% of poor work but even then I think that writing poorly is better than not writing at all -- providing one learns from it.

I had to write exercises at school in particular forms and it put me off poetry for a long time. We did not just do them in English but had to translate them into Latin and vice versa

 

[champagne1982]

My feeling is that you have a good point but am not convinced that it must be true in all instances. Your daughter's friend may well have written fine free verse without this exercise.I suspect not, but am unwilling to accept that one method must be suitable for everyone.

However, I will readily admit to contributing significantly to the 99% of poor work but even then I think that writing poorly is better than not writing at all -- providing one learns from it.

I had to write exercises at school in particular forms and it put me off poetry for a long time. We did not just do them in English but had to translate them into Latin and vice versa

This thread needs some clarification. KillerMuffin hasn't been active on the forums since September last year. In the reference from her post that ishtat pointed out KM is referencing another Lit forum poster nicknamed daughter. daughter hasn't been active since late 2003.

Your point is valid, though, ishtat. Good morning.

 

[annaswirls]

devo-lution

Anna!! youre killing me...

know what I would rather do than write a form poem like that?

I would rather be in chem lab, 12 hours a day, doing formulas, at least they offer no emotional variance and that is why my form poetry sucks so badly.

but if anyone can whippit, it will be you

whell I whipped it, not sure if I whipped it good


Chem lab! 12 hours a day! Oh my. That is a lot of time for me to be blowing a distillation, I hope you are my partner

 

[annaswirls]

This thread needs some clarification. KillerMuffin hasn't been active on the forums since September last year. In the reference from her post that ishtat pointed out KM is referencing another Lit forum poster nicknamed daughter. daughter hasn't been active since late 2003.

Your point is valid, though, ishtat. Good morning.

I just did a "search" on Pantoum because I thought there had been more recent discussion, and this was the thread that came up....

 

[champagne1982]

I just did a "search" on Pantoum because I thought there had been more recent discussion, and this was the thread that came up....

There had been one. LH and I were flexing and showing off our pantoums. You should have been there! I think there were nipples too . ETA: on this thread.