Friendships in D/s

[ownedsubgal]

Why can't exercising judgement about when and where behavior is most appropriate be part of who you are? I call that being a grownup, not a fake.

that's just common sense. what i don't get is why it seems to be a given to some folks that disrespect for or disobedience toward one's Master is ever appropriate behavior (or natural behavior) in any situation, around anyone, ever??

 

[ownedsubgal]

It also could be a sign that he wants a different type of pyl, I don't know.

that's a very real possibility as well. the one we love and adore isn't always the one we need, life is kinda unfair that way.

 

[Stella_Omega]

that's just common sense. what i don't get is why it seems to be a given to some folks that disrespect for or disobedience toward one's Master is ever appropriate behavior (or natural behavior) in any situation, around anyone, ever??

I don't think that's *quite* the issue here.

It's more like:

why should natural behavior (within a group of vanilla friends or family, who know and care for the sub) be defined as disrespectful to the Dom?

Sub's friends have a certain right to expect some time and attention. Dom must have agreed to that, or else sub wouldn't be seeing them. If dom expects one hundred percent of sub's attention in a social situation that actually doesn't concern him or her in primary, we have a problem.

 

[Braschi]

Well, Marquis didn't say that his little one (to use his term) was being neither disrespectful or disobedient; he was wondering how to "roll with" her friends, since he comes across as uptight. And I fully sympathize with him, because I end up coming across as "uptight" in most situations with people my age.

It's an issue that affects all relationships, D/s and otherwise, I think, and it's a dimension that a lot of people don't consider in their relationships. How do you relate to your SO's friends, particularly if they have habits or a way of doing things that's different from your own? I think it's even more important in kink, because the PYL has a lot more influence over the pyl.

That's probably more what Marquis was after...

 

[ownedsubgal]

Well, Marquis didn't say that his little one (to use his term) was being neither disrespectful or disobedient; he was wondering how to "roll with" her friends, since he comes across as uptight. And I fully sympathize with him, because I end up coming across as "uptight" in most situations with people my age.

I would try to roll with it best I could, but she definitely did not show me the same deference around her friends and quite frankly I never knew quite how to roll with it.

not being deferential to one's own Master, or less so, around one's own Master is definitely disrespectful imo, and depending on the nature of the dynamic verging on disobedient as well. it sounded like Marquis couldn't quite get comfortable and "roll with it" because his girl wasn't being her normal submissive self when around her friends.

as far as coming across uptight...in the grand scheme of things so what? we've all been victim to our personalities being misread by folks who don't really know or get us. but again in Marquis' case it just seems like his uptight-ness was a natural reaction to her being so different.

 

[sardoniclaugh]

Overall, I have said my bit on this, but the debate rages on.
Wow, I went away to make popcorn, and that sounds like I expected it to stop once I had said my bit.
Where I was going when I started that first sentence was that some interesting things have come up since I said my bit on the OP.
Re: the OP, having looked at the other thread, I have to guess that the girl in question was probably not really submissive in a mature way. IIRC, she has a history of abuse and possibly some mental illness as well. It is a recipe for a highly adaptable personality. Her "submission" is more likely adapting to the desires of a strong personality. If her behavior reverts to wildness when she is with her wild friends, it is likely because they have a stronger influence on her.

OSG, I tend to agree with you about the heart of what you've said. To call yourself 24/7 means that it's always on. A 24/7 Master is always Master to his slaves, and they are always slaves to him. Please adjust genders to suit your personal needs. At the same time, his expectations of her behavior needs to be suitable to the varying circumstances that the world presents us with.

Braschi

She's kind of overly submissive to be self-involved, I would say.

I can't say that I've ever seen any reason to suspect that subs and slaves and bottoms were any less self-involved than any other sort of people. I don't wish to be argumentative, but I think you're working under a false assumption. A sub serves who and how she chooses, and her reasons are the same as anyone else getting involved in any other sort of close relationship: she's trying to find a partner who fulfills HER wants and needs. Or his.

 

[Keroin]

I don't think that's *quite* the issue here.

It's more like:

why should natural behavior (within a group of vanilla friends or family, who know and care for the sub) be defined as disrespectful to the Dom?

Sub's friends have a certain right to expect some time and attention. Dom must have agreed to that, or else sub wouldn't be seeing them. If dom expects one hundred percent of sub's attention in a social situation that actually doesn't concern him or her in primary, we have a problem.

I would try to roll with it best I could, but she definitely did not show me the same deference around her friends and quite frankly I never knew quite how to roll with it.

not being deferential to one's own Master, or less so, around one's own Master is definitely disrespectful imo, and depending on the nature of the dynamic verging on disobedient as well. it sounded like Marquis couldn't quite get comfortable and "roll with it" because his girl wasn't being her normal submissive self when around her friends.

as far as coming across uptight...in the grand scheme of things so what? we've all been victim to our personalities being misread by folks who don't really know or get us. but again in Marquis' case it just seems like his uptight-ness was a natural reaction to her being so different.

It doesn't really matter about your definitions though. Or any of our definitions of what is appropriate or inappropriate. We know, through the billionty discussions on the topic here, that everyone has a slightly different version/interpretation of PYL/pyl.

What matters is Marquis's definition and that of his partner and how the two work together. If she needs A and he needs B, then they have to either find a way to make A & B work together or walk away. The end.

If my guy had a problem with me being with my friends because he felt awkward with them and I wasn't as deferential to him around them as he wanted, I'd be "See ya",*dust cloud as I run away*. For osg, the reaction would be different and for every pyl on this board the reaction would be different again. No right, no wrong, just different. We each have to find our own "right".

 

[intothewoods]

I think a major issue in my little one and I's relationship was always the awkwardness when I was around her friends. Around my friends, she tended to maintain the kind of composure I expected, but around friends that were just hers she would let out a wild side that they really liked. I know that she enjoyed being in that space and wanted to be able to give that to her... but it was always awkward because whenever I came around I always came across as uptight and weird. I would try to roll with it best I could, but she definitely did not show me the same deference around her friends and quite frankly I never knew quite how to roll with it.

Anyone have any experience with this? How do you deal with it?

It doesn't really matter about your definitions though. Or any of our definitions of what is appropriate or inappropriate. We know, through the billionty discussions on the topic here, that everyone has a slightly different version/interpretation of PYL/pyl.

What matters is Marquis's definition and that of his partner and how the two work together. If she needs A and he needs B, then they have to either find a way to make A & B work together or walk away. The end.

If my guy had a problem with me being with my friends because he felt awkward with them and I wasn't as deferential to him around them as he wanted, I'd be "See ya",*dust cloud as I run away*. For osg, the reaction would be different and for every pyl on this board the reaction would be different again. No right, no wrong, just different. We each have to find our own "right".

Exactly. See bold above. To me it sounds like there was a difficulty feeling out this situation, but not any disrespect or defiance.

I have sometimes felt a bit awkward with my PYL and friends, because I feel a certain desire to please everyone. In an effort to be entertaining I may joke too much or something like that. He's never said he was bothered, but I have felt like I should have done better. I think everyone has to communicate their needs, including the PYL. So if the situation makes him uncomfortable, he needs to say that and then communicate a solution or what he'd like to see her do differently.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

It doesn't really matter about your definitions though. Or any of our definitions of what is appropriate or inappropriate. We know, through the billionty discussions on the topic here, that everyone has a slightly different version/interpretation of PYL/pyl.

What matters is Marquis's definition and that of his partner and how the two work together. If she needs A and he needs B, then they have to either find a way to make A & B work together or walk away. The end.

If my guy had a problem with me being with my friends because he felt awkward with them and I wasn't as deferential to him around them as he wanted, I'd be "See ya",*dust cloud as I run away*. For osg, the reaction would be different and for every pyl on this board the reaction would be different again. No right, no wrong, just different. We each have to find our own "right".

Okay, first of all, one of the better uses of the word "billionty."

Second of all, you win this thread. You will now be included in the big 2010 Tournament of Thread Champions.

 

[JMohegan]

I think a major issue in my little one and I's relationship was always the awkwardness when I was around her friends. Around my friends, she tended to maintain the kind of composure I expected, but around friends that were just hers she would let out a wild side that they really liked. I know that she enjoyed being in that space and wanted to be able to give that to her... but it was always awkward because whenever I came around I always came across as uptight and weird. I would try to roll with it best I could, but she definitely did not show me the same deference around her friends and quite frankly I never knew quite how to roll with it.

Anyone have any experience with this? How do you deal with it?

Marquis, you mentioned on the other thread that she had (has?) some emotional maturity issues, as identified by a therapist. So it's tough know if you're talking about some sort of acting out here, or more typical 20-something hanging out with friends type of adult behavior. Regardless, for the sake of the topic at hand, let's assume it was the latter.

I'm going to further assume that you are generally attracted to a partner who has interests, responsibilities, activities, and relationships, separate and apart from the bond she has with you. Job or volunteer work, friends and family she values and spends time with, independent artistic or athletic endeavors, etc.

If that's not true, you can stop reading this post, because it won't be relevant if your ideal relationship is with someone who has no, and desires no, independent existence.

I'm a fan of big picture control when it comes to a partner's friendships with other people. That means I decide when she's free to hang out with those folks, and I also decide if & when I need to come along. This gives me the general sense of control I need to be okay with the situation, even if I'm spending an occasional evening with women who are blathering about something about which I have zero interest, or laughing about something I don't find humorous, or whatever.

Keroin is right. This is part of learning when & how to address a partner's needs, without shedding the controlling persona that's essential to comfort in the relationship.

A partner acting in a way I found rude or insulting to me personally, is not something I would be able to tolerate. Ever. Open disrespect, in ANY setting, would be totally unacceptable. Without more details, I'm not sure that's what you're talking about here.

However, expecting open deference 24/7 is not something I consider realistic, if you are out and about with someone who has those independent responsibilities and relationships referenced earlier. And to be honest, I'd say that the expectation of 24/7 open deference from a person with an independent side to her life is a mark of insecurity.

So you remind yourself that the momentary absence of open deference is not the same thing as disrespect. It's just that the veneer of behavioral norms shifts, depending on the company and the setting.

 

[Netzach]

Marquis, you mentioned on the other thread that she had (has?) some emotional maturity issues, as identified by a therapist. So it's tough know if you're talking about some sort of acting out here, or more typical 20-something hanging out with friends type of adult behavior. Regardless, for the sake of the topic at hand, let's assume it was the latter.

I'm going to further assume that you are generally attracted to a partner who has interests, responsibilities, activities, and relationships, separate and apart from the bond she has with you. Job or volunteer work, friends and family she values and spends time with, independent artistic or athletic endeavors, etc.

If that's not true, you can stop reading this post, because it won't be relevant if your ideal relationship is with someone who has no, and desires no, independent existence.

I'm a fan of big picture control when it comes to a partner's friendships with other people. That means I decide when she's free to hang out with those folks, and I also decide if & when I need to come along. This gives me the general sense of control I need to be okay with the situation, even if I'm spending an occasional evening with women who are blathering about something about which I have zero interest, or laughing about something I don't find humorous, or whatever.

Keroin is right. This is part of learning when & how to address a partner's needs, without shedding the controlling persona that's essential to comfort in the relationship.

A partner acting in a way I found rude or insulting to me personally, is not something I would be able to tolerate. Ever. Open disrespect, in ANY setting, would be totally unacceptable. Without more details, I'm not sure that's what you're talking about here.

However, expecting open deference 24/7 is not something I consider realistic, if you are out and about with someone who has those independent responsibilities and relationships referenced earlier. And to be honest, I'd say that the expectation of 24/7 open deference from a person with an independent side to her life is a mark of insecurity.

So you remind yourself that the momentary absence of open deference is not the same thing as disrespect. It's just that the veneer of behavioral norms shifts, depending on the company and the setting.

This. More or less. I know that we're going to go when I want to go, so the act of pulling his sleeve and saying "bitch, now" is kind of excessive.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

This hasn't happened for me yet.

Mr has his own life, and I have mine. The parts of our lives that don't include each other don't intersect.

My ex knew some of my friends though, and the only thing I generally watched out for was to make sure I called him by name, not anything else. I still took care of him first, but we put that down to his mobility issues. But then, there was never a lot of deference at some points of that relationship.

I think there still would be if Mr was to suddenly pop into my other world. But I also think that would work, because he has considerably more self assurance than my ex does, and he just has a presence.

Given that he's near 20 years older than me however, I don't know how he'd get along with the people I know...

 

[00Syd]

that's just common sense. what i don't get is why it seems to be a given to some folks that disrespect for or disobedience toward one's Master is ever appropriate behavior (or natural behavior) in any situation, around anyone, ever??

Because not everyone's relationship is exactly like yours. Duh.

 

[KoPilot]

that's just common sense. what i don't get is why it seems to be a given to some folks that disrespect for or disobedience toward one's Master is ever appropriate behavior (or natural behavior) in any situation, around anyone, ever??

Define "disrespect". :B

 

[Keroin]

Okay, first of all, one of the better uses of the word "billionty."

It is my new favourite word.

Second of all, you win this thread. You will now be included in the big 2010 Tournament of Thread Champions.

Is it full contact?

 

[ownedsubgal]

Because not everyone's relationship is exactly like yours. Duh.

um, huh? it has nothing to do with any relationship being like mine, however within the context of D/s or M/s relationships, there is the extremely broad commonality of submissive folks you know...submitting.

 

[Netzach]

um, huh? it has nothing to do with any relationship being like mine, however within the context of D/s or M/s relationships, there is the extremely broad commonality of submissive folks you know...submitting.

Are we really talking about disobedience or just not making a big deal out of obedience protocols for the sake of mainstreaming socially with the people you are with who aren't into your sex life?

Not making a lot of conscious obedience demonstrative gestures isn't the same as disobedience.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Are we really talking about disobedience or just not making a big deal out of obedience protocols for the sake of mainstreaming socially with the people you are with who aren't into your sex life?

Not making a lot of conscious obedience demonstrative gestures isn't the same as disobedience.

that's the thing, we don't know do we? Marquis probably didn't want to give details for a reason, and i can respect that. but it leaves the door open for assumptions on both ends. when i read "not as deferential" and
wild" i thought of something like not paying him enough attention or being very mindful...like ordering as many drinks as she wanted without thought or care to what the Master feels is appropriate, or being loose with her speech, or even just treating him like a "vanilla" boyfriend. maybe she was just blending in with everyone else, and acting more like them than like a submissive or slave.

i honestly don't believe there are many public "obedience protocols" in my relationship...there's no bowing my head against the table every time he sits or something...but just in the simple aspects of the attention i give to him and my mindfulness not to step out of line, i probably couldn't blend in well with a group of youthful, "wild" folks.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I often imagine osg as "Sweet Alice" from the poem;

DON’T you remember sweet Alice, Ben Bolt,—
Sweet Alice whose hair was so brown,
Who wept with delight when you gave her a smile,
And trembled with fear at your frown?

 

[Marquis]

I could be wrong, but I have a theory.

Her friends pre-date you, so they have known her before she submitted to you. She probably felt more compelled to maintain outward normality or vanillaness around them. Your friends she has only known since you guys got together, so she can be deferential to you because they didn't know her beforehand and won't go 'WTF?' For her to be very deferential to you around her friends could even make them concerned for her, as it's a classic tell for domestic abuse.

Just my thoughts. I read your 'rant' thread but didn't have an insight to offer. I'm sorry this happened to you though, FWIW.

I also don't think there's any harm in agreeing that some of her personal relationships with friends and family will always make her regress a little and shift out of her D/s mindset. It can be healthy to have the occasional recess from submission. If you took your dom hat off you'd maybe feel less awkward and uptight too, just put on your workaday public face for those people.

I really appreciate this post. I found it very insightful, and I think for a large part you are spot on. I also think there is another element at work here. Her desire to be free among her friends, I think, often came as a response of less control being offered by me. I would see the results of my own laziness and blame her for it.

I can think of many examples where she showed me a great degree of deference around people she knew long before me, her family for example.

Well, when you have a problem with someone, usually the best way to think about it is flip the situation. Think of it from other people's point of view. Yes, that's something particularly hard for dominants to do, but it might give you more of an insight of what's going through her head.

Other than that, what Stella and sardonic said. One of my former subs had a pretty high-powered job in the government, and frequently had to put up with gender and discrimination issues. Obviously I couldn't undermine her authority in front of her coworkers, and most importantly lower level civil servants. In order to figure out the best reaction, I thought about what would happen in my job if my father or someone else I have a certain amount of admiration or respect for, where there. What would be the best way for him to act? And that's what I did. Usually it was to give her as much space as she needed to do her stuff, and back her up whenever she needed it. It wasn't my place, they weren't my colleagues or my friends; there was no reason for me to be the star. Besides, I kind of liked watching her -my girl- ordering around all those people, and it was fun imagining making her do something humiliating later.

If you can't do that, well, then take a step back. There's a difference between domineering and dominant. But, of course, you know that

i was in a "D/s" relationship and had a similar experience on the "s" side. i put the "D/s" in quotations, because we never called it that. that was simply the way it was. the first couple of times we went out together with my friends and family, i felt awkward preparing his plate, fixing his drink, because none of my other friends or family worked that way. they would give me a funny look when he sat there waiting for me to bring him things. the simple act of fixing his plate while my father got his own food was just weird. i couldn't understand how he wouldn't adjust to the environment was in. he flat out refused. he refused to eat unless i fixed the plate, even if that meant going hungry. okay. he never went hungry. i fixed the plate. the strangest thing was when we had joint get togethers with both of our friends. i would be running around trying to do everything, while he sat on the couch socializing with his buddies. it didn't bother me (that's just the way things were), but some of my girlfriends were simply appalled. i felt like i was trapped between two worlds, and i wanted to please everyone. it frustrated and confused me. i have no idea where i am going with this, but to make a long story short, it takes time and communication. if it bothers you, you need to talk about it. you need to find out what is going on. you need to ask your partner, "how do we deal with this, together?"

This is really great advice.

Marquis, you mentioned on the other thread that she had (has?) some emotional maturity issues, as identified by a therapist. So it's tough know if you're talking about some sort of acting out here, or more typical 20-something hanging out with friends type of adult behavior. Regardless, for the sake of the topic at hand, let's assume it was the latter.

I'm going to further assume that you are generally attracted to a partner who has interests, responsibilities, activities, and relationships, separate and apart from the bond she has with you. Job or volunteer work, friends and family she values and spends time with, independent artistic or athletic endeavors, etc.

If that's not true, you can stop reading this post, because it won't be relevant if your ideal relationship is with someone who has no, and desires no, independent existence.

I'm a fan of big picture control when it comes to a partner's friendships with other people. That means I decide when she's free to hang out with those folks, and I also decide if & when I need to come along. This gives me the general sense of control I need to be okay with the situation, even if I'm spending an occasional evening with women who are blathering about something about which I have zero interest, or laughing about something I don't find humorous, or whatever.

Keroin is right. This is part of learning when & how to address a partner's needs, without shedding the controlling persona that's essential to comfort in the relationship.

A partner acting in a way I found rude or insulting to me personally, is not something I would be able to tolerate. Ever. Open disrespect, in ANY setting, would be totally unacceptable. Without more details, I'm not sure that's what you're talking about here.

However, expecting open deference 24/7 is not something I consider realistic, if you are out and about with someone who has those independent responsibilities and relationships referenced earlier. And to be honest, I'd say that the expectation of 24/7 open deference from a person with an independent side to her life is a mark of insecurity.

So you remind yourself that the momentary absence of open deference is not the same thing as disrespect. It's just that the veneer of behavioral norms shifts, depending on the company and the setting.

My own insecurities play into this a lot. It makes me think about my father. Like me, he has the terrible tendency of trying to cover his own insecurities by trying to point out those of others. I have definitely felt at times that in my relationship with him, I was carrying a tremendous burden of his insecurities about how he failed me as a father, and it was not until I asked him to take some of the load that I felt more comfortable in the relationship.

In my case, I like to imagine myself as this all-powerful individual, and anything that contradicts that image of myself tends to make me upset. I need to be the hottest guy in the room, the most interesting, the center of attention. If I am not the center of attention, I will blame my submissive for disrespecting me. It has been a horrible pattern.

I think that a very positive element of this experience for me will be to lean how to stand on my own two feet, to feel good about myself in a room full of strangers without feeling the need to profess my greatness.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If I am not the center of attention, I will blame my submissive for disrespecting me.

Sadly, this makes you a very common form of male asshole. Lots of men do this, replacing "my submissive" with "My girlfriend/woman/bitch."

 

[Keroin]

In my case, I like to imagine myself as this all-powerful individual, and anything that contradicts that image of myself tends to make me upset.

This is ridiculous.

I think that a very positive element of this experience for me will be to lean how to stand on my own two feet, to feel good about myself in a room full of strangers without feeling the need to profess my greatness.

This is good.

 

[BiBunny]

Sadly, this makes you a very common form of male asshole. Lots of men do this, replacing "my submissive" with "My girlfriend/woman/bitch."

Nah. Narcissism happens in both males and females, to a greater degree than most people realize.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Nah. Narcissism happens in both males and females, to a greater degree than most people realize.

Isn't there a reason most people don't realize it happens in women?

 

[BiBunny]

Isn't there a reason most people don't realize it happens in women?

'Cause they're idiots?