Friendships in D/s

[Stella_Omega]

'Cause they're idiots?

Must be.

 

[00Syd]

um, huh? it has nothing to do with any relationship being like mine, however within the context of D/s or M/s relationships, there is the extremely broad commonality of submissive folks you know...submitting.

What constitutes or qualifies as submission for one dom might not constitute or qualify as submission for another. There are no clear cut absolutes here.

 

[JMohegan]

My own insecurities play into this a lot. It makes me think about my father. Like me, he has the terrible tendency of trying to cover his own insecurities by trying to point out those of others. I have definitely felt at times that in my relationship with him, I was carrying a tremendous burden of his insecurities about how he failed me as a father, and it was not until I asked him to take some of the load that I felt more comfortable in the relationship.

In my case, I like to imagine myself as this all-powerful individual, and anything that contradicts that image of myself tends to make me upset. I need to be the hottest guy in the room, the most interesting, the center of attention. If I am not the center of attention, I will blame my submissive for disrespecting me. It has been a horrible pattern.

I think that a very positive element of this experience for me will be to lean how to stand on my own two feet, to feel good about myself in a room full of strangers without feeling the need to profess my greatness.

Do you really imagine yourself as all-powerful, though?

If I remember correctly, you weren't always the hottest, most interesting guy in the room. Given your hard-won transformation, is it possible that you find those non-center of attention times personally threatening, because you're afraid you'll slip back into the mode of fat kid nobody cared to notice? If that's true, then the statement in bold is understandable on a subconscious level, though clearly irrational, unfair, and supremely counterproductive, as you say.

Re the last paragraph - how do you envision that happening? I ask, because the thing about being an unattached hot guy in a room full of strangers is that there's nearly always a subset of interested females in attendance. If you're receptive to the idea, it won't be hard to find some form of a replacement s. So how do you learn those lessons, without giving in to the temptation of slipping back in to the same behavioral pattern?

 

[sb2009]

I"m so not trying to be a dick here...but people keep bringing up the pyl's mental health issues. I think it's very important to note that the PYL *also* has mental health issues and that they were at a crisis point quite recently.

Two people who are in the beginning stages of dealing with a mental illness - their own and their partners - are dealing with enough shit for anyone.

Why does it have to be PYL/pyl right now? Why is it about open deference around her friends and all that - right now it seems like what would help the relationship grow is both people get a handle on both their behaviors that cause trouble.

And right now, it just sticks in my craw that there are some the devalue relationships outside of the PYL/pyl. Sure, maybe it works for some. But I will bet a billionty millionty bucks that for the average PYL/pyl that person would go bat shit insane if they only face they had was the one bowed down at the feet of their master. Gah. I'm annoyed so I probably need to reflect on what trigger this set off for me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I"m so not trying to be a dick here...but people keep bringing up the pyl's mental health issues. I think it's very important to note that the PYL *also* has mental health issues and that they were at a crisis point quite recently.

Two people who are in the beginning stages of dealing with a mental illness - their own and their partners - are dealing with enough shit for anyone.

Why does it have to be PYL/pyl right now? Why is it about open deference around her friends and all that - right now it seems like what would help the relationship grow is both people get a handle on both their behaviors that cause trouble.

And right now, it just sticks in my craw that there are some the devalue relationships outside of the PYL/pyl. Sure, maybe it works for some. But I will bet a billionty millionty bucks that for the average PYL/pyl that person would go bat shit insane if they only face they had was the one bowed down at the feet of their master. Gah. I'm annoyed so I probably need to reflect on what trigger this set off for me.

I'm with you on this, as I'm sure you know.

 

[Marquis]

Do you really imagine yourself as all-powerful, though?

If I remember correctly, you weren't always the hottest, most interesting guy in the room. Given your hard-won transformation, is it possible that you find those non-center of attention times personally threatening, because you're afraid you'll slip back into the mode of fat kid nobody cared to notice? If that's true, then the statement in bold is understandable on a subconscious level, though clearly irrational, unfair, and supremely counterproductive, as you say.

Re the last paragraph - how do you envision that happening? I ask, because the thing about being an unattached hot guy in a room full of strangers is that there's nearly always a subset of interested females in attendance. If you're receptive to the idea, it won't be hard to find some form of a replacement s. So how do you learn those lessons, without giving in to the temptation of slipping back in to the same behavioral pattern?

Interesting points. I'm coming to accept that this journey will be more about personal development, whether or not I am able to rekindle things with my ex.

Being who I was, or being who I could be, ultimately has nothing to do with who I am with.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Interesting points. I'm coming to accept that this journey will be more about personal development, whether or not I am able to rekindle things with my ex.

Being who I was, or being who I could be, ultimately has nothing to do with who I am with.

bravo!

 

[YourCaptor]

What constitutes or qualifies as submission for one dom might not constitute or qualify as submission for another. There are no clear cut absolutes here.

I think OSG is talking about the commonality that brings us all together here. Or at least the Ms portion of the crowed. If person A has the role of whatever, and in one specific environment starts acting like god knows what, that kind inconstancy can shatter the whole Ms dynamic.

For example say an art friend suddenly does a art is useless act around a specific crowed.

But you are right, social interaction are fluid from one situation/person to another so it's kind of a moot point, but somewhere lines or at least gray areas need to be made.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Two people who are in the beginning stages of dealing with a mental illness - their own and their partners - are dealing with enough shit for anyone.

Why does it have to be PYL/pyl right now? Why is it about open deference around her friends and all that - right now it seems like what would help the relationship grow is both people get a handle on both their behaviors that cause trouble.

Excellent point. Mental health always gets short shrift, doesn't it? If we were talking about two people with undiagnosed chest pains, then "get thee to a doctor" goes right to the top of the to-do list.

And excuse me for talking about you as if you're not here, Marquis.

 

[SimonBrooke]

I think a major issue in my little one and I's relationship was always the awkwardness when I was around her friends. Around my friends, she tended to maintain the kind of composure I expected, but around friends that were just hers she would let out a wild side that they really liked. I know that she enjoyed being in that space and wanted to be able to give that to her... but it was always awkward because whenever I came around I always came across as uptight and weird. I would try to roll with it best I could, but she definitely did not show me the same deference around her friends and quite frankly I never knew quite how to roll with it.

Anyone have any experience with this? How do you deal with it?

H'mmmm... essentially, I think we 'dominants' cling to our dominance so desperately precisely because we're insecure and needy people. Not a pleasant thing to face up to but I think that it is true. When you see her interacting with her friends in a way which does not acknowledge your special role, you feel excluded and threatened and you find that hard to cope with. I think you need to find a way of owning that this problem really is your shit, not hers, and it's you who needs to work on your behaviour to change things. Because if you don't not only will this relationship fail, but future relationships will fail in the same way.

You may find that if there's some subtle thing you as a couple can do which acknowledges your ownership of her, this may help. You might have something she wears as a symbolic collar - a necklace, perhaps, or a bracelet or anklet. You might have a 'word of command' which works in precisely the opposite way to a safe word - a word which means 'I need you to stop what you're doing immediately and pay attention to me now'. If you agree this with her, then like a safe word it must be used rarely and only when you're really uncomfortable.

I know that this means acknowledging to yourself that actually she has quite a lot of power in your relationship - but at the end of the day that's simply the truth, and if you hide from it you are not helping anyone.

 

[Marquis]

H'mmmm... essentially, I think we 'dominants' cling to our dominance so desperately precisely because we're insecure and needy people. Not a pleasant thing to face up to but I think that it is true. When you see her interacting with her friends in a way which does not acknowledge your special role, you feel excluded and threatened and you find that hard to cope with. I think you need to find a way of owning that this problem really is your shit, not hers, and it's you who needs to work on your behaviour to change things. Because if you don't not only will this relationship fail, but future relationships will fail in the same way.

This is pretty much where I'm at right now. I'm basically trying to pull my relationship back from the precipice. It is very, very, VERY far gone at this point. Truth be told, I'm not really making a concerted effort to save my relationship, so much as I am making a concerted effort to understand what a tool I've been. Ultimately, I would think that would be a starting point for our mending if we are right for each other, and if not would put me in a good position to be in a good relationship with someone else when this one is truly and finally over.

You may find that if there's some subtle thing you as a couple can do which acknowledges your ownership of her, this may help. You might have something she wears as a symbolic collar - a necklace, perhaps, or a bracelet or anklet. You might have a 'word of command' which works in precisely the opposite way to a safe word - a word which means 'I need you to stop what you're doing immediately and pay attention to me now'. If you agree this with her, then like a safe word it must be used rarely and only when you're really uncomfortable.

It makes me sad to read this post, because we used to have things like this. I miss being in love. My sub and I have been sexual business partners, roommates, etc. for so long. I totally forgot about this kind of stuff. I thought this period of my life was over. Honestly, I just kind of wanted a house/trophy wife type bitch while I tried to make as much money as possible.

 

[JMohegan]

Interesting points. I'm coming to accept that this journey will be more about personal development, whether or not I am able to rekindle things with my ex.

Being who I was, or being who I could be, ultimately has nothing to do with who I am with.

On the contrary, I'd say they are inextricably related.

Our perception of who we were, are, and could be, drives the process by which we choose a partner. It also forms the basis of our ongoing evaluation of the partnership itself. The key question is: which "you" gets the upper hand when you make the selection?

If you target the hottest female in a room full of s-types eagerly awaiting Dom Charming, one who is willing to drop everything in her life and rush to your side in short order, that choice offers an immediate balm to address fundamental insecurities. But it also sets the balm factor as the primary point & purpose of the relationship from day one.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is pretty much where I'm at right now. I'm basically trying to pull my relationship back from the precipice. It is very, very, VERY far gone at this point. Truth be told, I'm not really making a concerted effort to save my relationship, so much as I am making a concerted effort to understand what a tool I've been. Ultimately, I would think that would be a starting point for our mending if we are right for each other, and if not would put me in a good position to be in a good relationship with someone else when this one is truly and finally over.

This is impressive thinking

It makes me sad to read this post, because we used to have things like this. I miss being in love. My sub and I have been sexual business partners, roommates, etc. for so long. I totally forgot about this kind of stuff. I thought this period of my life was over. Honestly, I just kind of wanted a house/trophy wife type bitch while I tried to make as much money as possible.

This is what I hate about heteronormative D/s.

 

[Keroin]

This is impressive thinkingThis is what I hate about heteronormative D/s.

This has nothing to do with D/s. Trust me, I've known my share of vanilla guys who go after "trophy bitches". Inevitably the relationship falls to pieces, either when the vapid twenty-something grows up and/or he gets bored of her and moves on to the next walking ego-stroking machine.

It's a sad spectacle.

 

[Marquis]

On the contrary, I'd say they are inextricably related.

Our perception of who we were, are, and could be, drives the process by which we choose a partner. It also forms the basis of our ongoing evaluation of the partnership itself. The key question is: which "you" gets the upper hand when you make the selection?

If you target the hottest female in a room full of s-types eagerly awaiting Dom Charming, one who is willing to drop everything in her life and rush to your side in short order, that choice offers an immediate balm to address fundamental insecurities. But it also sets the balm factor as the primary point & purpose of the relationship from day one.

You have a good memory.

Our relationship has gone through a lot of periods, as our needs and what we could offer each other changed. We each took turns being the one capable of offering financial support, emotional support, intellectual stimulation.

I think a lot of why we split stems from the fact that we just reached a point where we had very little to offer each other and became resentful of each other.

 

[Marquis]

I can say this much.

We had a lot of conversations about her moving up to this small town where I'm in school. She had other opportunities she wanted to take advantage of. I felt stuck between wanting her to know how much I wanted her to be with me, and not wanting the responsibility of her giving everything up again. She's been dragging her feet since before she got here. "I could've done this.... I should've done this...."

In my part, I could've shown her more appreciation for the sacrifices she's made for me. I could've been the one to tell her to go for her other opportunity, or to show her appreciation for sticking with me.

I really don't know who to blame, nor do I think blaming will get me out of this. Right now I'm just in a shitty situation I didn't want to be in but put myself in regardless. Just trying to take it one day at a time.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This has nothing to do with D/s. Trust me, I've known my share of vanilla guys who go after "trophy bitches". Inevitably the relationship falls to pieces, either when the vapid twenty-something grows up and/or he gets bored of her and moves on to the next walking ego-stroking machine.

It's a sad spectacle.

That's exactly what I mean.

 

[JMohegan]

You have a good memory.

Our relationship has gone through a lot of periods, as our needs and what we could offer each other changed. We each took turns being the one capable of offering financial support, emotional support, intellectual stimulation.

I think a lot of why we split stems from the fact that we just reached a point where we had very little to offer each other and became resentful of each other.

I didn't mean to imply that t&a plus balm factor were all she had to offer.

But here's the thing -

I can say this much.

We had a lot of conversations about her moving up to this small town where I'm in school. She had other opportunities she wanted to take advantage of. I felt stuck between wanting her to know how much I wanted her to be with me, and not wanting the responsibility of her giving everything up again. She's been dragging her feet since before she got here. "I could've done this.... I should've done this...."

In my part, I could've shown her more appreciation for the sacrifices she's made for me. I could've been the one to tell her to go for her other opportunity, or to show her appreciation for sticking with me.

I really don't know who to blame, nor do I think blaming will get me out of this. Right now I'm just in a shitty situation I didn't want to be in but put myself in regardless. Just trying to take it one day at a time.

If you value her talent and independent aspirations, not just as a tangential matter but as a fundamental part of her overall identity, the multi-dimensional "her" that you love and that attracted you in the first place, then the question of whether you should simultaneously enroll in programs on opposite sides of the country gets framed differently. Her priorities become your priorities, and her sacrifice your sacrifice.

Instead of "not wanting the responsibility of her giving everything up again," it becomes "not wanting her to give up that opportunity to develop her talent." So you endure the months when the geography sucks for both of you, but end up win/win.

I'm not trying to rewrite history; nor am I assigning blame. I consider relationships to be a matter of equal responsibility, and blame pointless. I'm just offering food for thought by expanding my point about how we choose partners, and the consequences of the reason for choosing.

 

[Marquis]

I didn't mean to imply that t&a plus balm factor were all she had to offer.

But here's the thing -


If you value her talent and independent aspirations, not just as a tangential matter but as a fundamental part of her overall identity, the multi-dimensional "her" that you love and that attracted you in the first place, then the question of whether you should simultaneously enroll in programs on opposite sides of the country gets framed differently. Her priorities become your priorities, and her sacrifice your sacrifice.

Instead of "not wanting the responsibility of her giving everything up again," it becomes "not wanting her to give up that opportunity to develop her talent." So you endure the months when the geography sucks for both of you, but end up win/win.

I'm not trying to rewrite history; nor am I assigning blame. I consider relationships to be a matter of equal responsibility, and blame pointless. I'm just offering food for thought by expanding my point about how we choose partners, and the consequences of the reason for choosing.

We've talked about this.

We have so little faith in our ability to work long distance. That probably says a lot right there.

 

[YourCaptor]

I'm not needy, I just have a lot of needs I want met, and just so.

 

[eastern sun]

I can say this much.

We had a lot of conversations about her moving up to this small town where I'm in school. She had other opportunities she wanted to take advantage of. I felt stuck between wanting her to know how much I wanted her to be with me, and not wanting the responsibility of her giving everything up again. She's been dragging her feet since before she got here. "I could've done this.... I should've done this...."

In my part, I could've shown her more appreciation for the sacrifices she's made for me. I could've been the one to tell her to go for her other opportunity, or to show her appreciation for sticking with me.

I really don't know who to blame, nor do I think blaming will get me out of this. Right now I'm just in a shitty situation I didn't want to be in but put myself in regardless. Just trying to take it one day at a time.

From another perspective -

My husband and I went through this period in the early years of our relationship. And I have woven the number of sacrifices I made at that time into the infrastructure of our M/s dynamics. Doing so brought me pleasure. Not doing so, and focusing only on the lost opportunities, brought me resentment.

I can say in retrospect that in each case in which I sacrificed an opportunity, it was because of my own fear. I used him to give me an excuse not to take a risk that would be challenging, and in which I might fail. It was far easier to choose the relationship, and then wonder "what would have happened if . . ." or imagine myself succeeding beyond my wildest dreams without actually having to test my abilities.

Later, after many years together, I had to face my fear and the ways that I have sabotaged myself. At that point, I began taking independent action, clearly expressing my needs, and he supported me. He had been through his own process as well (like you are now), and he admitted that he hadn't supported my independence during those early years because he felt threatened and was afraid that I would be more "successful" than he was.

This is all complicated shit, rooted in even more complex subterranean webs of fears and intentions. We have no exit clause in our relationship, so we had to work through all this with each other.

I don't want to imply that you should stay in the relationship. Just that she has responsibility in everything that happened too. It's true that you probably could have been more supportive. It's also true that you could recognize both your own and her willingness to grow now.

 

[SimonBrooke]

We've talked about this.

We have so little faith in our ability to work long distance. That probably says a lot right there.

Working long distance is seriously hard. Right at this moment I'm trying to grow something which started out as merely a delightful adventure at long distance into something which becomes a series of steadily more committed adventures (but still almost certainly at long distance). It's work. She's a lovely woman, and I like - and want - her a lot. But it is hard.