Genuinely Curious: Why the Hate for Sex in Stories

[PandemicReader8]

Thank you for all the input!

 

[SimonDoom]

Something you should keep in mind--that everyone here should keep in mind--is that criticism is not intolerance. People are entitled to their opinions. It's a very big tent. The fact that a few people might greet your content with reactions like, "What a piece of shit!" doesn't mean it's an intolerant environment. The readership here is so vast that there are plenty of readers for just about every taste. So focus on the positive, not the negative. You can't please everybody, and it's useless to try.

I've had so many readers tell me that my stories are stupid and shit, and I've had readers tell me I should stop writing because I'm so terrible. After a while, it's just sort of amusing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yes, some do. And, from my perspective, those of us who try to provide it get far more derision than those who provide more straightforward sexual content do.

I don't see "hate" on either side of the equation. What I do see, almost daily, is a dismissal of more literary erotica. I've never told anyone else that their writing didn't belong here. I've been told that mine did not dozens of times.

I think for me part of it is this:

The world - as I experience it, anyway - tends to separate life and art into zones for "sex" and "everything else". I don't talk to my co-workers or my siblings about the sex I had on the weekend; I don't use my real name on this forum. There's one set of awards for movies that feature explicit unsimulated sex, and another for Respectable Movies that might show a bit of simulated sex and T&A but handle it in a very formulaic way knowing that if they go past an "M" rating it's going to hurt their bottom line. Text media gets more leeway with sex but it often still feels a bit tokenistic, "the hero has succeeded in his quest so now I guess he gets to fuck the princess" rather than actually being interested in how sex would fit into their relationship. Porn quite often begins with a story but then abandons that story as soon it's served the purpose of getting the characters into bed, and from there it goes into a more or less interchangeable routine of handjob blowjob vaginal maybe-anal cumshot.

A lot of my interest is in the zone where the "sex" interacts with the "everything else". That's a fascinating area for me - sex is a powerful thing that isn't neatly contained IRL, it spills out and gets into all sorts of messy, interesting territory. How does a sexual relationship change the way two people relate as friends? How does somebody who fervently believes in equality and kindness square that with wanting to tie their lover up and hurt them? What happens in a relationship where sex is no longer possible?

(BTW, I'm not just talking highfalutin' literary interest, even when I'm looking for arousal I'm more likely to find it in that middle zone than in SuperSexyLand.)

That interest is poorly served on either side of the fence. It's not that nobody is doing it, there are various honourable exceptions in both sexland and mainstream. Romance in particular is often more willing to integrate sex as part of a bigger picture, which is one of the reasons I'm reading more romance these days. But romance has its own very specific expectations and sometimes I want to read outside those expectations. Wanda said lovely things about Anjali's Red Scarf; one of the reasons I wrote that story, and posted it here, is that I was processing a lovers-to-friends transition in my own life and I don't know where to find stories about that anywhere.

Wherever I look for that interaction-zone kind of story, I have to wade through a mountain of stuff that's either hypersexualised or hyposexualised. Literotica tends towards the hyper- side, but it's still closer than most to the happy medium. I don't resent the existence of the hypersexualised stuff here for those who want to read it, but I wouldn't be sad if the ratio was slightly better, and if some folk didn't feel the need to gripe about stories that take their time. (Granted, most of those folk seem to have given up on me by now ;-)

Do they expect to find the next "War and Peace" or "The Great Gatsby" here?

One of the things I appreciate about Literotica, in an odd sort of way, is its amateurism. Anybody can post a story here and a lot of them do. Sometimes that leads to irritating things like bad grammar and clichéd storylines, but it also means I'm a bit more likely to be surprised by a story that hasn't been filtered to somebody's expectations of profitability. Some dude wants to write oddly specific fantasy about wrapping Roy Orbison in clingfilm, I can read that and learn something new about my fellow human being without that being stymied by the publishing exec who says "nobody's going to read that".

For all the roughness and all the not-relevant-to-my-interests stuff that I have to filter through, that counts for a lot.

 

[Cagivagurl]

The question I am asking might be rooted in posts and comments I started noticing only after a discussion with other Litizens.

It may be wrong on it's face. I don't know, thus I'm asking.

Why is there seemingly so much derision for stories where a large percentage of the word count is devoted to sex scenes? Terms like "spank fuel" get tossed around in a derogatory manner. I appreciate- in some moments - a good slow burn as much as any one. But, as a reader, when I logged into Lit, it was for a very specific - often time sensitive - purpose. Are people actually coming to Lit expecting literature? Do they expect to find the next "War and Peace" or "The Great Gatsby" here?

What am I missing?
-------
Historically,
I haven't read a lot of what goes on in forums around Literotica. Perhaps there has been some derision of the pure stroke story? If there has, I missed it.
You do pose an interesting question though:
"What are people looking for?"
In my opinion, it is varied. I stumbled upon "Lit" looking for erotic literature. Stories with a sexual undertone. Yes, I was looking for something to arouse me.... (Confession over)
For something to arouse me, it has to be able to hold my attention for more than ten seconds.
For that to happen, it must have a plot, a hook, something that makes me turn the page. (Great story by the way) It comes highly recommended, by me.
Thankfully in this world we are all different.
Erotica means more to me than lapping tongues, and plunging cocks. Eroticism is held in the story, I love lots of dialogue, Drama, intrigue. I want to be drawn into the story. Aroused, xcited, saddened, angry. Yah, I know it's a lot to ask for on a site where everything is provided free of charge.
I am constantly amazed at the quality of some of the writing on lit.
I think there is something for everyone.
So, well done Lit.
Cagivagurl

 

[Rob_Royale]

My sex scenes have been described as porn-esque, and based on my online travels that's a small wonder. But I've only once been admonished by someone who thought my story was lacking in plot, character development and setting. I'm not sure what that person was expecting in the LW category of an erotica site, but I guess my story wasn't it.

I don't sweat it. Can't please them all.

 

[yowser]

The world - as I experience it, anyway - tends to separate life and art into zones for "sex" and "everything else". I don't talk to my co-workers or my siblings about the sex I had on the weekend; I don't use my real name on this forum.

A lot of my interest is in the zone where the "sex" interacts with the "everything else". That's a fascinating area for me - sex is a powerful thing that isn't neatly contained IRL, it spills out and gets into all sorts of messy, interesting territory.


One of the things I appreciate about Literotica, in an odd sort of way, is its amateurism.

Nicely said.

It is a multi-lane highway, good in variable ways to both drivers and passengers.

Even, surprisingly, to lots of off-road adventures.

 

[lustychimera]

Why is there seemingly so much derision for stories where a large percentage of the word count is devoted to sex scenes?

I'm a porn for the plot kind of person. You know, I want to know why Sis was doing laundry. Does she have a volleyball game coming up, a hot date, is it just a routine?? What's her relationship with her mother??? HOW did she get stuck in the dryer???? How big of a penis does Step-Bro have?????? (Bruh, divide his number of inches by two, and that's what I'm rating your story)

But in all seriousness, the eroticism to me is reading about the relationships between the characters, not so much the act of sex itself.

Video porn does the action bits so much better. I think because of that, people who read erotica tend to care more about the relationships.

Or they have some bizarre fetish that rule 34 somehow missed, and they can only find it in written form.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm a porn for the plot kind of person. You know, I want to know why Sis was doing laundry. Does she have a volleyball game coming up, a hot date, is it just a routine?? What's her relationship with her mother??? HOW did she get stuck in the dryer???? How big of a penis does Step-Bro have?????? (Bruh, divide his number of inches by two, and that's what I'm rating your story)

Also how the fuck is the dryer manufacturer still in business? This KEEPS HAPPENING and yet they're not doing anything to remedy an obvious safety hazard.

Also why are there so many families where everybody is some kind of step-something to everybody else in the family? Backstories like: "Jane's father died in a fatal dryer accident, so her mom remarried to Bob, but then her mom died in the very same dryer. Meanwhile, Paul's mom died, his dad remarried to Mandy, then dad died too, and then Mandy married Bob after they met while organising a class action lawsuit against the tumble dryer company."

 

[Djmac1031]

The only thing that malfunctions more that dryers in porn is doors.

None of them ever seem to close properly and always at the most inopportune times.

 

[TxRad]

Or better yet, how does one get their tits stuck in a couch?

 

[KeithD]

Or better yet, how does one get their tits stuck in a couch?

Living room anal sex.

 

[Rob_Royale]

You have me interested now though. I'm going to see exactly how many words my sex scenes take up in my latest story. Results tomorrow.

 

[alohadave]

Also how the fuck is the dryer manufacturer still in business? This KEEPS HAPPENING and yet they're not doing anything to remedy an obvious safety hazard.

Also why are there so many families where everybody is some kind of step-something to everybody else in the family? Backstories like: "Jane's father died in a fatal dryer accident, so her mom remarried to Bob, but then her mom died in the very same dryer. Meanwhile, Paul's mom died, his dad remarried to Mandy, then dad died too, and then Mandy married Bob after they met while organising a class action lawsuit against the tumble dryer company."

I read a story not too long ago where a son's father died, and the stepmother had custody of the son. Then she remarried.

So the son had two stepparents in the same household.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I read a story not too long ago where a son's father died, and the stepmother had custody of the son. Then she remarried.

So the son had two stepparents in the same household.

That kind of family seems to be really common on video sites. I've heard.

(I know exactly why, but it's still ridiculous.)

 

[SimonDoom]

This thread illustrates a common attitude I've noticed in this forum. We tend to notice the negative, not the positive. If 9 readers gush over an author's story and 1 person doesn't, the author will ask, "Why is there so much hate for my story?"

If you pay careful attention to reader comments here, you'll see there's an almost infinite variety of tastes, and there are more than enough people to enjoy whatever taste you want to offer. Focus on those people, not those who don't share your taste. You can't please everyone, and it's foolish to try.

 

[harmonicks]

I generally don't like short stories (though if I don't like a story I just move on, rather than leaving angry and indignant comments about it) because for the most part they are, in my opinion, just not very engaging and often are not well-written.

For me the entire point of erotica is to build at least some connection between the characters, give at least a bit of context behind what I'm reading, and do more than just describe two (or more) people having sex. I can imagine what people having sex is like, if literally all an author is doing is putting that basic mechanical concept into writing then that's not particularly arousing or compelling. A story about a cheating wife isn't really about a cheating wife if it's just straight sex and there's a brief mention that she happens to be married at the start.

That's not to say longer is better, and in particular I have a lot of appreciation for authors who can keep a story short without it feeling like its missing something, but ultimately the stories that stay with me and that I go back to are the ones that have an actual narrative arc and aren't basically just an audio description transcript of a random porn scene.

Also as much as I'm not a fan of stories which are extremely short and jump straight to the sex, I'd still probably rather have those than the stories I come across which have several pages of build-up to a sexual climax that only lasts a paragraph before the story ends.

 

[Britva415]

I find the opposite. Readers in general don't want too much plot getting in the way of their kink.

I think we can't generalize. There are plenty of readers who demonstrate the exact opposite of this.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Nobody knows what readers want. A huge majority of them do not vote, comment or interact with the author in any way. They just click on the story and god only knows if they even read it till the end, or if they just skim and read the sexy parts? Who can say for sure if they liked it or not? In that sense, everything written in this thread is pure speculation, some of it based on logic, some of it are assumptions based on our own behavior as readers, and so on. Personally, the only readers I find important are those that cared enough about the story to leave a comment. Any kind of comment, really. Yet, readers who care enough to comment barely reach 1% of the readership, often far less, although even this is also just an assumption based on the number of views. I often see authors drawing conclusions from the comments about the general reception of their stories. Ten good comments and one negative one. Yeah, readers loved it. Ratings show it too. 4.65 with fifty votes out of 5000 views. How do they know that those who voted, and especially those who commented represent the opinion of the general readership? Commenters especially are a rare breed and they are by default different enough from the general readership, because they actually took the time and cared enough to comment, unlike those 99.9% who didn't (again, assumption about the numbers) This is all such a slippery slope.

My advice? Write what you want to write and don't concern yourself with the reactions of an anonymous crowd. Cherish the feedback you get from those precious readers who do leave a comment and try to learn from it. I can say that it helped me immensely to correct some mistakes, mostly born out of the inadequacy of my English. Respond to them, hear them out, and indulge them even if you care to. The rest of the readers? Fuck them, I say.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think we can't generalize. There are plenty of readers who demonstrate the exact opposite of this.

Yes, don't generalize. It is dismissive. Just like picking one item out of context to dismiss an entire post.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I find the opposite. Readers in general don't want too much plot getting in the way of their kink.

... but the vast majority of the hits on your stories just want to wank, all those thousands who never vote or the dozens who give a 2 because they had to scroll too much to find the sexy bits and didn't bother to comment.

You keep saying this, but how do you know?

Other than the small group of readers who do give us feedback in one form or another, none of us have a clue about the other 99%.

It's difficult to explain how longer stories appear to be popular, if you believe everyone's here to toss off in five minutes and that's it.

I ascribe slightly more sophistication to my readers - I don't write stroke, but my stories seem to do okay, so I can assume they're reading "for the something else."

 

[Rob_Royale]

You have me interested now though. I'm going to see exactly how many words my sex scenes take up in my latest story. Results tomorrow.

So, more for my own curiosity, I did do a check on this. Sex constituted 4830 words out of 17023. Not quite 30% of the story. I'm actually a little surprised but pleased it was that low. To my mind, less than half should be my goal so that I have enough character and setting development, and let the story flow and progress between the sex scenes. But that's just me.

 

[djrip]

So, more for my own curiosity, I did do a check on this. Sex constituted 4830 words out of 17023. Not quite 30% of the story. I'm actually a little surprised but pleased it was that low. To my mind, less than half should be my goal so that I have enough character and setting development, and let the story flow and progress between the sex scenes. But that's just me.

But what counts as sex? Does naked sunscreen application count? Washing each other in a shower? Naked massages (or spankings!) prior to actual sex?

Asking for a friend.

 

[onehitwanda]

Does naked sunscreen application count?

Depends. Lots of people are comfortable enough with nudity that this wouldn't be an issue; e.g. two friends at a nude beach, or hiking, or camping etc where there's no sexual attraction (or possible sexual attraction), even if the physical touch causes certain things to happen. If that physical touch, though, causes one or both to start thinking things, well, then, saxophone music intensifies.

Washing each other in a shower?

This one starts off with a far more... sexual... launch point, if you will. Two friends, siblings, whatever who've actually got nekkid and climbed into a shower together is already a more intimate setting - think about your average shower, it has a door and it's an enclosed, private space that you've decided to share with someone. There's going to be a lot of deliberate touching while you're washing one another, and, well... lets just say that showers aren't always the best places to think things through properly.

Naked massages

Lets just say there's no way nothing's going to happen if you're at this stage.

 

[djrip]

Depends. Lots of people are comfortable enough with nudity that this wouldn't be an issue; e.g. two friends at a nude beach, or hiking, or camping etc where there's no sexual attraction (or possible sexual attraction), even if the physical touch causes certain things to happen. If that physical touch, though, causes one or both to start thinking things, well, then, saxophone music intensifies.

This one starts off with a far more... sexual... launch point, if you will. Two friends, siblings, whatever who've actually got nekkid and climbed into a shower together is already a more intimate setting - think about your average shower, it has a door and it's an enclosed, private space that you've decided to share with someone. There's going to be a lot of deliberate touching while you're washing one another, and, well... lets just say that showers aren't always the best places to think things through properly.

Lets just say there's no way nothing's going to happen if you're at this stage.

But does it count toward my word percentage?! Got to get the sex ratio right!

Or maybe I should do a gradient bar from blue to red and this stuff would be various shades of purple. I need a grad student to run the numbers and generate the graphs while I focus on what's important. Fundin//er, I mean writing.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Got to get the sex ratio right!

Sex Ratio is my favorite German fuckpunk band.