Give me your take on this feedback, please

[raphy]

Watch out, we're moving into the realms of 'what gender is the narrator' discussion - If I was you, Camille, I'd take it as a compliment.. Writing in a way that doesn't betray your gender is not a skill that everyone has.

 

[janus40s]

The scene that I quoted was NOT the F/F part but rather having Honey (another woman) fuck Dan (her lover). That, I maintain, is what makes the fantasy a "male" fantasy. Couldn't a woman have it? Sure. But not many women would find it appealing (or indulge in it).

I would quibble with the words "not many".

I think that there are more women out there who have "traditionally male-typical" fantasies than most people realize. It's just that women who have those fantasies find it socially unacceptable to admit to them, especially when talking to other women.

I readily admit that my opinion is based largely on anecdotal evidence from a relatively small number of self-selected women whom I happen to have talked to about this particular subject over the years.

On the other hand, there are people who have done actual research and have come to similar conclusions. I recommend the book "Women on Top" by Nancy Friday. It has some empirical data and anecdotal interview examples on the subject. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671648454/

As you read it, however, remember that the book is ten years old and it is talking about women who were born before about 1975 (a range of time that presumably includes hiddenself and certainly includes myself).

[Janus mentions something about whether a fantasy is socially "approved" or not for a particular gender. That's not the issue here.

Actually, I believe it is a big part of the issue. Much of the differences between fantasies of women and men are likely the result of social conditioning.

Women of the "current generation" might be even less inhibited about both indulging and admitting to previously socially unacceptable fantasies. They stand a better chance of having been socialized by parents who themselves were influenced by 1960's-1970's sexual revolution.

Although, in the same post, Janus also says that a heterosexual female friend doesn't like F/F scenes cause they "don't do it for her." Am confused. That doesn't sound like an approval issue but rather one of taste.]

Absolutely. The F/F thing is an issue of taste for this particular woman. I think it fair to suppose that the more heterosexual a woman is, the less likely she would be to enjoy F/F sexual activity in videos. In fact, I might assert that it is definitional.

My point, as I hope I have clarified above, is that the gender-specific nature of fantasies has been changing over the past few decades and that there is a lot of formerly-male-typical fantasizing going on in the minds of a lot of today’s women.

 

[janus40s]

And, by the way, I apologize for using the word "twit" in a previous post.

 

[Guest]

This reminded me about a thread in AH a few days back which was about a computer(?) which told you if you're a man or a woman based on your writing. There was a lot of crap I didn't read in there and I think there was a conclusion saying that the results were wrong more times than they were right.

Yep, the good old, very unreliable Gender Genie. It told me I write like a man, with nearly every story sample that I submitted to it. However, this program doesn't take into account story content, it just looks for certain markers in the text. For example, apparently women use 'with' a lot.

Lou

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Since World War II when wireless radio became the norm, cryptoanlasists have been able to identify a particular operator by his "stroke" or the unique way in which he entered data. Along those same lines there was a gent in a chatroom I used to frequent who was amazingly perceptive when it came to the true gender of people in the room.

On several occasions he correctly identififed guys masquerading as women, in most cases I harbored only vague suspisions or none at all. When I asked him how he knew his response surprised me, but he said the answer was contractions. He said guys unconciously word things so they can use contractions and women don't. I don't know what, if any validity his theory holds, but he was amazingly adept at spotting people trying to pass themselves off as a gender other than their own.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

Gender Identification

 

[hiddenself]

Re: Gender Identification

However, going somewhat tangentially here, I did have a weird experience with gender ID. Back when I got married and we and our freinds were repopulating the earth, there was a period where I was predicting the sex of the as yet unborn of our social group. Somewhere in the second trimester, I'd get a feeling, I batted 1.000 (though only 8 for 8). I never could figure out how this worked...

I still haven't won the lottery.

Lime

Quite a track record! If you were flipping a coin, you'd have less than half of a percent chance of getting all 8 right! Sure you can't exploit that talent somehow?

 

[KillerMuffin]

Hmmmmmmmm . . . that's interesting. So you think people have pre-conceived notions and when it doesn't fit that notion they get angry. I always figure twists in plot to be interesting, not that my story had any deep "plot" or anything. I don't in any way consider my story literature.

I think it's a little different than plot. They expect the sex to go a certain way and when it doesn't give them what they want, they get frustrated or angry.

I've gotten "yelled" at in the mail because I didn't make the characters fuck in a certain way. It's funny.

 

[Hi C]

Hmmmmmmmm . . . that's interesting. So you think people have pre-conceived notions and when it doesn't fit that notion they get angry. I always figure twists in plot to be interesting, not that my story had any deep "plot" or anything. I don't in any way consider my story literature.

I think it's a little different than plot. They expect the sex to go a certain way and when it doesn't give them what they want, they get frustrated or angry.

I've gotten "yelled" at in the mail because I didn't make the characters fuck in a certain way. It's funny.

I pretty much agree with your answer, but will try to add some food for thought from the perspective of a reader who's not an author. Consider why a reader is reading your story. I assume I'm typical in that I read erotica because I'm hoping for a sense of emotional satisfaction, as well as - perhaps even more than - intellectual stimulation. Otherwise, to put it bluntly, I could go to the library or bookstore and get literature written by far more talented writers than I can find here. I don't say that to be insulting, but to point out that my reasons for reading here are quite different than for reading other literature.

Also, I wouldn't say that I have "pre-conceived notions", but rather that an author, in the course of a story, creates expectations in the reader. These expectations begin with the story categories and descriptions; they are there for a reason. Preferably, the author's reason is the same as the reader's. Even within those guidelines, an erotic story may go in a direction that I predict will not fulfill the emotional component that I'm seeking, and I'll stop reading. Story twists, however, lead the reader's expectations in one direction, and then takes the story in another. A twist which I may think is clever and admirable in more mainstream literature often will destroy the mood and the fulfillment which I'm hoping to get from the story. Yes, there are twists which do enhance the story, but (in my opinion) a twist must keep within the framework of what's acceptable to do so. A twist which unexpectedly takes the story in the direction of one of my squicks, is not what I consider acceptable, and my reaction to one will be quite different than it would be if I were reading a mystery of science fiction. I will reflect my dismay or upset with a low vote (mostly because it's easy to do). I may send feedback to explain the vote, but often will not; it depends on the story and the author, what I feel I can contribute, and whether I feel it's worth the bother. I don't send flames, anonymous or otherwise, but as you know even better than I, there are many who do.

Another example where the writer's and reader's objectives may not be the same.

 

[Guest]

A twist which I may think is clever and admirable in more mainstream literature often will destroy the mood and the fulfillment which I'm hoping to get from the story.

Tsk tsk tsk.

Now that's a shame. Because the stories here are only for stroke (I mean emotional fulfillment - lol) purposes you tend to punish a writer for plot creativity?

As a matter of fact, it is often very difficult to place a story into only one category. Many of mine tend to overlap just a bit; as yet this hasn't seemed to bother anyone.

The authors I know personally who post on this site do not take themselves too seriously. Most have other careers; writing smut is just a marvelous hobby.

I don't wish to argue with you about this; I'm certain you have already made up your mind. But I do find it interesting that while on one hand you complain about story quality, on the other (or should I say - with the other) you are annoyed when the occasional quality story takes you away from your stroke expectations.

It's just erotica.

 

[Guest]

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I have a suggestion for you Hi C, Penthouse letters.

No plot, no Character building, no literary devices, no big words. Sometimes you don't even have to worry about annoying details like clothes. Only drawback is you have to be careful, you can wipe off the screen or keyboard, but pages tend to stick together.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

 

[damppanties]

Also, I wouldn't say that I have "pre-conceived notions", but rather that an author, in the course of a story, creates expectations in the reader. These expectations begin with the story categories and descriptions; they are there for a reason. Preferably, the author's reason is the same as the reader's. Even within those guidelines, an erotic story may go in a direction that I predict will not fulfill the emotional component that I'm seeking, and I'll stop reading. Story twists, however, lead the reader's expectations in one direction, and then takes the story in another. A twist which I may think is clever and admirable in more mainstream literature often will destroy the mood and the fulfillment which I'm hoping to get from the story. Yes, there are twists which do enhance the story, but (in my opinion) a twist must keep within the framework of what's acceptable to do so. A twist which unexpectedly takes the story in the direction of one of my squicks, is not what I consider acceptable, and my reaction to one will be quite different than it would be if I were reading a mystery of science fiction. I will reflect my dismay or upset with a low vote (mostly because it's easy to do). I may send feedback to explain the vote, but often will not; it depends on the story and the author, what I feel I can contribute, and whether I feel it's worth the bother. I don't send flames, anonymous or otherwise, but as you know even better than I, there are many who do.

Another example where the writer's and reader's objectives may not be the same.

Thanks for showing us the reader's viewpoint Hi C, but I guess we are more than aware of the 1 voters. Most of them have nothing to do with emotional or any other fulfillment.

You may have a point with the 'twist' theory of yours. As I took it to mean, you wanted to say that a sudden incestous turn in BDSM or a 'rough', NC sex scene in erotic couplings does turn the reader off and make him vote 1. A little bit of overlapping is fine in stories but I guess there should be fair warning at the beginning of the story if there is a drastic change from the main story category within.

While you have said you will vote 1 and not send feedback, I do hope it was just a way of conveying your argument and not something you actually do.

 

[Hi C]

Tsk tsk tsk.

Now that's a shame. Because the stories here are only for stroke (I mean emotional fulfillment - lol) purposes you tend to punish a writer for plot creativity?

As a matter of fact, it is often very difficult to place a story into only one category. Many of mine tend to overlap just a bit; as yet this hasn't seemed to bother anyone.

The authors I know personally who post on this site do not take themselves too seriously. Most have other careers; writing smut is just a marvelous hobby.

I don't wish to argue with you about this; I'm certain you have already made up your mind. But I do find it interesting that while on one hand you complain about story quality, on the other (or should I say - with the other) you are annoyed when the occasional quality story takes you away from your stroke expectations.

It's just erotica.

It's interesting that you read "stroke" when I wrote "emotional fulfillment". It's an incorrect interpretation on your part which makes your remarks miss the mark. While I don’t deny enjoying the occasional stroke story, for me, finding one that I do enjoy is more the exception than the rule. I place more value on characterization, how a character responds to a situation, and how the author handles tension and conveys mood than on the ol' in-and-out. I’m not trying to say that the sex is unimportant, but it loses much of its meaning for me if it doesn’t fit in the context of an engaging story and characters.

While it's true that you can't place a story into more than one category, you can inform the reader of overlapping categories with an appropriate description. Not doing so - for example, categorizing a story as "Romance", writing it as such, but having a "creative" snuff ending - would ruin any enjoyment I might have gotten out of it. Thus, while quality is important to me, there are elements which will overshadow it and prevent me from enjoying a story regardless of its virtues.

An analogy: you go to a restaurant and enjoy a fantastic soufflé. Then you bite into a cockroach. No, it wasn't a mistake in the kitchen; it's the chef's intentional surprise to enhance the quality of your meal. He’s expressing his creativity, so it’s no problem, right?

It's just protein.

 

[Hi C]

I have a suggestion for you Hi C, Penthouse letters.

No plot, no Character building, no literary devices, no big words. Sometimes you don't even have to worry about annoying details like clothes. Only drawback is you have to be careful, you can wipe off the screen or keyboard, but pages tend to stick together.

-Colly

Another author (I assume) who reads into my response something that I didn't say. If that's the response readers get when they try to provide feedback, do you wonder why more don't bother?

 

[janus40s]

Unfair plot twists are a problem in stories of any genre, erotic or otherwise. If the author foreshadows a happy ending and then suddenly kills the main character on the last page, the reader is going to be dissatisfied.

It seems fair in erotic literature that the author ought to signal the type of eroticism in the first paragraphs of the story, if not in the title or description.

Consider the reader's attitude in the following scenario: The first ten pages of the story consist of a modern day EC story of romantic dinner, dancing, mood music, slow undressing and oral sex. Suddenly, on page eleven, an army of seventeenth century Serbian midgets appears out of nowhere to have N/C anal sex with the couple.

I might not fault the reader for being a bit displeased and perhaps sharing that displeasure with the author.

On the other hand, if there was a hint of this, say an interspersed scene or two of preparations by the Small Slavic Soldiers of Sodomy as they warm up the time machine, it would lend some credibility to the plot.

We could be even subtler: perhaps the mood music includes a Yugoslavian rendition of "We Represent the Lollypop Guild". Maybe the romantic dinner is served with a bottle of 1659 vintage brandy: i.e. something that foreshadows the climactic scene.

In other words, give the reader a hint early on in the story that something might just be a little kinky later on. That will make for a more satisfied audience.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hc Posted

Another author (I assume) who reads into my response something that I didn't say. If that's the response readers get when they try to provide feedback, do you wonder why more don't bother?

What I read into your response was that you were happy to give an author a low score because of a plot twist (since it's so easy). You further stated that while such twists might be appropriate in another genre (Mystery or Science Fiction) they are not appropriate to erotica. This after making sure we were all reminded that you could find better written material at the library or local bookstore.

Those of us who write these stories may be amatures, but we put in a significant amount of time and effort to produce works people will enjoy. That low vote you gave because the author tried to write a story with some plot or characterization or, god forbid a plot twist simply because it's easy and you think erotica shouldn't have plot twists marks you as the kind of reader most of us end up bitching about in these forums.

Whether you intended it or not your post boils down to:

This is porn, it's not really literary work (Like I can get at the library or book store). Leave the plot twists and such to real authors (those who write Mystery or Science Fiction for example). If you atempt to write something complex I will give you a low vote (since it's so easy) and maybe I will send you feedback to tell you you're out of your depth, but maybe I won't.

Perhaps I misread what you were saying, lord knows I make mistakes, but after a reread that still was the mesage I got from your post.

-Colly

 

[Hi C]

Thanks for showing us the reader's viewpoint Hi C, but I guess we are more than aware of the 1 voters. Most of them have nothing to do with emotional or any other fulfillment.

You may have a point with the 'twist' theory of yours. As I took it to mean, you wanted to say that a sudden incestous turn in BDSM or a 'rough', NC sex scene in erotic couplings does turn the reader off and make him vote 1. A little bit of overlapping is fine in stories but I guess there should be fair warning at the beginning of the story if there is a drastic change from the main story category within.

While you have said you will vote 1 and not send feedback, I do hope it was just a way of conveying your argument and not something you actually do.

Thank you, too, for receiving my comment in the spirit in which I offered it.

As for the 1 vote without feedback, I won't say that I do it often, but neither will I deny that I have done it. I don't suppose that you're interested in my rationale (or rationalization, if you prefer) for doing so, so I won't bore you with it.

Yes, you did understand the point I attempted to make about the plot twists. Suffice it to say that while writers probably feel that low scores without feedback are discourteous (to put it mildly), I submit that incorrect categorization or description of a story is equally discourteous to the reader.

Although the previous posts I made here may not sound like it, I am not out to discourage any writers from sharing their works, nor to belittle their efforts. I've written, too, and I know how much work is involved. If I dislike a story, I'll usually stop reading before I vote. Thus, I am far more likely to give positive feedback than negative; similarly, I'm more likely to offer constructive criticism when I've enjoyed a story (and therefore read it through) than when I haven't.

 

[Guest]

It's interesting that you read "stroke" when I wrote "emotional fulfillment". It's an incorrect interpretation on your part which makes your remarks miss the mark. While I don’t deny enjoying the occasional stroke story, for me, finding one that I do enjoy is more the exception than the rule. I place more value on characterization, how a character responds to a situation, and how the author handles tension and conveys mood than on the ol' in-and-out. I’m not trying to say that the sex is unimportant, but it loses much of its meaning for me if it doesn’t fit in the context of an engaging story and characters.

It seems to me you contradict yourself. You said on your previous post that: " I assume I'm typical in that I read erotica because I'm hoping for a sense of emotional satisfaction, as well as - perhaps even more than - intellectual stimulation. Otherwise, to put it bluntly, I could go to the library or bookstore and get literature written by far more talented writers than I can find here. I don't say that to be insulting, but to point out that my reasons for reading here are quite different than for reading other literature."

Yet now you are saying you place more value on characterizations and an engaging story? From your own statements it seems as if you can't really find anything of quality here - you'd go to a library or bookstore for that. Of course I assumed you meant stroke action. What do you suppose everyone else thought of when you called it "emotional satisfaction"? (Please forgive me, but that phrase still makes me chuckle.)

As for quality, it seems you aren't even looking. I imagine it is far easier to complain and low vote stories without even sending a comment. That is really a shame, and it's the only reason I answered your post in the first place.

I don't stress about votes anymore, but I did when I first submitted stories. I've been lucky in that I haven't been flamed much by readers (more often by the occasional author in competition - lol). I love feedback. I try to answer them all, and I welcome the critical comments along with the "Your story made me so hot!!!!!!!!!"

And actually, I do agree with your explanation of reader dissatisfaction when categories overlap. I know it does happen, but I really believe it isn't the norm. Laurel does a pretty good job of moving the stories to the appropriate category before posting them (especially if the writer has difficulty deciding).

But dissatisfaction with plot movement happens in every genre of writing, don't you think? I'm sure readers become annoyed with most writers out there, one time or another.

I'm not too certain if your cockroach analogy is appropriate. (Though it does seem to once again show your negative bias about smut). Ahem.


Oh! Welcome to Lit!

 

[hiddenself]

Thanks for showing us the reader's viewpoint Hi C, but I guess we are more than aware of the 1 voters. Most of them have nothing to do with emotional or any other fulfillment.

While you have said you will vote 1 and not send feedback, I do hope it was just a way of conveying your argument and not something you actually do.

And you know about the motivation of the 1-voters from... an extensive survey of them, I presume?

As for voting 1 w/o feedback, I do it all the time. What's wrong with it again? I also often vote 3s w/o feedback. Occasionally, I will even vote a 5 w/o feedback. Oh, the horror!

hs

PS HiC stated quite a few reasonable points (cockroach analogy excepted). I don't see what is so reprehensible or surprising in his posts. Good reality check (but it seems not too many people are fond of those).

 

[damppanties]

And you know about the motivation of the 1-voters from... an extensive survey of them, I presume?

As for voting 1 w/o feedback, I do it all the time. What's wrong with it again? I also often vote 3s w/o feedback. Occasionally, I will even vote a 5 w/o feedback. Oh, the horror!

hs

Errr... no. Not an extensive survey but what I've learned on the boards here. That, coupled with low votes on my stories which are accompanied by anonymous feedback saying I'm no better than Satan for corrupting the minds of god-fearing people and I'll rot in hell.(That was for real and I still chuckle about it ). Then there were times when my stories have suffered from the 'get the red H off' syndrome. My one contest story was too unusual to be competing so I was spared the competitive low voting (or was I? It has dismal scores ). I am no genius but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the usual 1 voters don't care much about 'emotional fulfillment.' I know I am not a great writer but don't tell me I deserve 1s.

Yes, hiddenself, you can vote 1,2,3,4,5 w/o feedback. There's nothing wrong with it. If your votes are about my writing (use of language) and I really suck (can't tell a story to save my life), I'll accept that. But if it is about your own personal quirks or about dissatisfaction with the plot, I would like to know about it. Of course I would like feedback from every person who votes, but then I think I might be losing it now.

PS HiC stated quite a few reasonable points (cockroach analogy excepted). I don't see what is so reprehensible or surprising in his posts. Good reality check (but it seems not too many people are fond of those).

I agree his points were reasonable. I don't agree with the way he goes about awarding ones just because a story didn't live up to his expectations. If you want tailor-made stories, there's always the Story Ideas Forum. You really don't need to wade through all the stories on Lit. and low vote them.

Have a nice day.

 

[damppanties]

Thank you, too, for receiving my comment in the spirit in which I offered it.

As for the 1 vote without feedback, I won't say that I do it often, but neither will I deny that I have done it. I don't suppose that you're interested in my rationale (or rationalization, if you prefer) for doing so, so I won't bore you with it.

Oh, but I am interested.

Yes, you did understand the point I attempted to make about the plot twists. Suffice it to say that while writers probably feel that low scores without feedback are discourteous (to put it mildly), I submit that incorrect categorization or description of a story is equally discourteous to the reader.

I agree.

 

[LunarKitten]

Cammy welcome...ask any writer here we all get them. I once was told my writing was a "piece of crap"...anonymous of course. Forget it, concentrate on the constructive ones and keep writing!!


Cookie

I agree with Miss Cookie It's like those who go and vote for your story and give it the lowest rating, so they can bring down your listing. *sigh* Why people do that is beyond me *shrugs*

 

[Seattle Zack]

With any writing, whether it's erotica or sci-fi or horror, it's the drama that drives the story, not so much the descriptions. Many of the stories I read on Lit are just extended descriptions of a fuck scene; while the writing may be good, the story itself isn't that compelling.

Stories that have drama, real characters, and sex that helps move the story along are the ones I like to read.

I don't worry about votes too much anymore, either; the system here seems pretty capricious. The real feedback I get (not the anonymous "you suck" or the ones written directly to the story character, as if he or she were a real person) is much more valuable to me that the vote totals.

I generally don't give "1" votes -- if the story's that unreadable, then I'll just back out after a sentence or two. Although occasionally I vote without giving feedback, generally I'll send something explaining what I liked or didn't like about the story.

I also have to agree with janus, I like surprise plot twists, as long as they're well-thought out and not just thrown in randomly for shock value.

--Zack