Gun play?

[ZRT]

But I keep hitting my head on this. This is what it sounds like to me. And it makes me want to have nothing to do with the gun rights lobby. As long as this remains an issue of "real vs fake America" and the people in fake america who need real personal protection remain an afterthought, no one's getting my money or voice.

As I've said in the past, I'm a conscientious objector to the whole Red State/Blue State war. I'll readily admit that I'm more at home in the red areas because I'm like Homburg in that this is where I grew up and the environment I know how to read, whereas I have always been at the very least strongly tense and edgy in alien environments like NYC.

But basically, fuck all to the political concerns. What matters to me is that women like you and others can protect themselves. It is very much a women's issue to me, because the average woman has absolutely no other reliable method of self-defense than a firearm. The same goes for the elderly, the slight of build, and the disabled folks.

That's why I get so passionate about this.

 

[Homburg]

The only two times in my life that I've been credibly threatened with lethal violence, the individuals threatening me were white, and in a non-slum, largely white area that would be considered suburbs. *shrug*

And I've been tense in big cities, but largely because I did not know the area, and had no clue how to get where I needed to go. The environment itself, while not comfortable and happy for me, was not threatening.

Wow, the body language was different though. The only people I felt comfortable around in NYC proper were the cops, as their body language was at least familiar.

 

[JMohegan]

This is the subtext I eventually keep hitting my head on. "White rural people with guns are good."

As an NYC Jew, I beg to differ on how comfortable and safe-feeling the "redneck bar in TX" experience actually is, and stick to Sixth St, Austin. Where they have the signs asking politely that you leave your firearms outside.

They're familiar, as I live in the second state to go concealed carry. Our violent crime has seen no significant dip attributable to that.

Again, I absolutely believe that one should have the right to carry and own for personal protection. It's this creepy subtext that I have issues with over and over. Not everyone espouses it, and not everyone I met who participates in gun safety/sport etc is white, and obviously they're comfortable enough in those circles.

But I keep hitting my head on this. This is what it sounds like to me. And it makes me want to have nothing to do with the gun rights lobby. As long as this remains an issue of "real vs fake America" and the people in fake america who need real personal protection remain an afterthought, no one's getting my money or voice.

I don't mind white rural people with guns hanging out in white rural areas and thinking that they're better than everyone else. I don't mind them building arsenals in their homes to defend against whatever intrusions may or may not come, walking around feeling protected from their neighbors because they're carrying, or heading on out to hunt dinner.

What bothers me most about the gun lobby is bullshit like this.

 

[Homburg]

What bothers me most about the gun lobby is bullshit like this.

.....

I chalk this up to two things.

1) Lobbyists will use any hot issue to further their inane point.

2) GOA is a really wacky group, in a field already well-populated with moderately wacky groups.

The only mitigating factor I've seen is that health organisations have used the bully pulpit to wax anti-gun before, so there is some thin relation.

 

[JMohegan]

That's an interesting point. And honestly, I am white, and I've always lived in a rural area. The white, rural people around me have always had guns, and I've always been comfortable with that.

If we're talking culture, the fact is that I've never been threatened in that white, rural atmosphere. Which is not to say it couldn't happen - it just hasn't.
And frankly, the times in my life when I have been threatened were by young black men in urban areas such as Chicago, Bridgeport, and NYC. I try very hard not to draw broad conclusions from those specific experiences.

I wouldn't call either of those cultures the real America, although I know where I belong. We're such a big country that our range of experience is all over the map, so to speak. I see this as a huge issue going forward, and it explains the political divide we face. There's a frightening Balkanization going on, and I don't have a clue how to address it.

Rural New England? Vermont is one of my favorite places on earth.

With regard to African Americans in urban areas, I would be interested to know if you were "threatened" in the sense of feeling nervous in response to their appearance and mannerisms, or literally, explicitly, threatened.

Fears or anecdotal evidence aside - as a white person, statistically speaking, you are much more likely to be killed by another white person. See below.

Source.

 

[Netzach]

Rural New England? Vermont is one of my favorite places on earth.

With regard to African Americans in urban areas, I would be interested to know if you were "threatened" in the sense of feeling nervous in response to their appearance and mannerisms, or literally, explicitly, threatened.

Fears or anecdotal evidence aside - as a white person, statistically speaking, you are much more likely to be killed by another white person. See below.

Source.

I grew up in the most diverse county in the country. My only brushes with criminal intent were with other white kids. They had to go out of their way for a little intra-racial mugging and threatening.

 

[JMohegan]

.....

I chalk this up to two things.

1) Lobbyists will use any hot issue to further their inane point.

2) GOA is a really wacky group, in a field already well-populated with moderately wacky groups.

The only mitigating factor I've seen is that health organisations have used the bully pulpit to wax anti-gun before, so there is some thin relation.

This reminds me - I've been meaning to ask any Lit NRA members a question. What is the NRA's position on loaded guns being brought to town hall meetings, including ones hosted by the President? I've been wondering whether they've issued a statement to members in support or repudiation of that type of thing.

As an aside - I thought the NRA guy asked one of the best questions at Obama's Montana event last week.

 

[Homburg]

Fears or anecdotal evidence aside - as a white person, statistically speaking, you are much more likely to be killed by another white person. See below.

This is because, statistically speaking, you are vastly more likely to get killed by someone you know. As most black people tend to know a lot of black people and most white people tend to know a lot white people, it stands to reason that, statistically speaking, any given murder victim will be assaulted by someone of a similar skin tone to themselves. And assault and other interpersonal crimes are the same way.

I can honestly say that the worst danger I was in from any of the black people I've ever met was probably a stiff beating in literally one confrontation in my whole life (working security* ). As I said before, the two times I've been threatened with lethal force (both were with knives) were at the hands of white people, and they were teens from the same basic neighbourhood that I lived in.

This reminds me - I've been meaning to ask any Lit NRA members a question. What is the NRA's position on loaded guns being brought to town hall meetings, including ones hosted by the President? I've been wondering whether they've issued a statement to members in support or repudiation of that type of thing.

As an aside - I thought the NRA guy asked one of the best questions at Obama's Montana event last week.

I've mentioned that I'm an NRA life member, but I honestly have no clue what their stance is. I paid for my life membership around the time I went from junior member to adult member, as they were having a deal. Life membership amounted to about the cost of a couple of years membership then, so I did it, figuring it would save me money. After a few more years, I got really tired of them, cancelled my magazine subscription, told them to stop calling, and to not waste time mailing me. These days they rarely mail me asking for money. I am apparently on a list that sends out voting bullitens and the like, and that's about it.

Honestly, I pay about as much attention to the NRA as you do. Still, assuming their stance hasn't changed, they would likely tell their members not to carry to such events. They're pretty good about trying to keep the crazy to a dull roar, and taking firearms to town meetings is definitely on the crazy side.




* - The one possible stiff beating encounter was a humungous ex-con with a chip on his shoulder and a seething hatred for white people in uniform. When I realised this, after he called me a honkie pig, I laughed and said, "Shit, man, I'm Japanese. You thought I was white?!?" He stopped a second, laughed, and gave me a lot less attitude afterwards.

 

[JMohegan]

As I've said in the past, I'm a conscientious objector to the whole Red State/Blue State war. I'll readily admit that I'm more at home in the red areas because I'm like Homburg in that this is where I grew up and the environment I know how to read, whereas I have always been at the very least strongly tense and edgy in alien environments like NYC.

A red area that was the murder capital of the country for three years running? With slums, and condos owners too scared to maintain offices in your building, and drug parties and brawls downstairs?

Usually people from rural areas visiting the Big Apple say they feel nervous about the crowds or the potential for crime or the noise. If you grew up in a red, urban area, what is it about NYC that feels "alien" to you?

 

[JMohegan]

I've mentioned that I'm an NRA life member, but I honestly have no clue what their stance is. I paid for my life membership around the time I went from junior member to adult member, as they were having a deal. Life membership amounted to about the cost of a couple of years membership then, so I did it, figuring it would save me money. After a few more years, I got really tired of them, cancelled my magazine subscription, told them to stop calling, and to not waste time mailing me. These days they rarely mail me asking for money. I am apparently on a list that sends out voting bullitens and the like, and that's about it.

Honestly, I pay about as much attention to the NRA as you do. Still, assuming their stance hasn't changed, they would likely tell their members not to carry to such events. They're pretty good about trying to keep the crazy to a dull roar, and taking firearms to town meetings is definitely on the crazy side.

I actually pay a fair amount of attention to stories about the NRA, if I see them in the news. But I haven't heard anything on this subject, either.

Thanks for answering.

 

[Homburg]

Usually people from rural areas visiting the Big Apple say they feel nervous about the crowds or the potential for crime or the noise. If you grew up in a red, urban area, what is it about NYC that feels "alien" to you?

For me Atlanta is just about as bad as NYC. It is the city itself, not the fact that it is a northern city per se. Atlanta is not as bad though, as it at least has southerners living in it.

Really, for me, I think, aside from the alien body language of the inhabitants, it is the urban canyon. I feel really closed in and turned around when I'm surrounded by skyscrapers and lots of tall buildings. Going subterranean to use a subway is incredibly weird, and not being able to get my bearings with sun/moon/horizon is off-putting.

And so many people get tightly closed off in those environments. They're guarded and suspicious. That sort of thing really puts me off as well. The whole environment is packed with tightly closed body language, cranky, guarded people, and, to really sound like some kinda hippy, bad energy. I can't describe it in a better way.

One of my best friends is a born and bred New Yorker that grew up in the barrio on a skateboard or with a pair of rollerblades permanently on his feet, and he sees the city totally differently than I do. It is an almost organic thing, and he sees ways of travail that I would never think of, opportunities for interesting mayhem, and all sort and manner of different sites. The South was as alien to him when he moved here as NYC is to me, and it really took him a long time to get used to the way people are down here.

I actually pay a fair amount of attention to stories about the NRA, if I see them in the news. But I haven't heard anything on this subject, either.

Thanks for answering.

Heh, then you pay more attention to them than I do.

I don't have access to any in-crowd info as a member, else I'd look it up. Anything I could find would be the same as anyone else with access to google.

 

[ZRT]

A red area that was the murder capital of the country for three years running? With slums, and condos owners too scared to maintain offices in your building, and drug parties and brawls downstairs?

Usually people from rural areas visiting the Big Apple say they feel nervous about the crowds or the potential for crime or the noise. If you grew up in a red, urban area, what is it about NYC that feels "alien" to you?

Yeah, I was well aware of the danger I was in that area, but I spoke the local dialect, I recognized the behavior and mannerisms of the people around me, knew the rules, knew where to go and what to do.

In NYC, I was always totally off my turf. Foreign dialect, foreign behaviors, unknown social protocols, no idea of where to go or what to do if I was in trouble beyond going all tourist and yelling 'Police!'

Give you an example- personal spacing with hispanics. Locally, the personal space boundaries with hispanics tend to start out at a goodly distance, with a gringo like me. That boundary tends to break down quickly if the relationship becomes friendly and personable.

But when I went out in the world and started dealing with Cubans and Puerto Ricans in New York or Miami, the personal spacing protocol was completely different.

In Miami, I had a Cuban guy get up in my face, talking loudly, right as I met him. It totally put me in threat mode, because my upbringing acquainted me with the notion that folks with that accent and look -don't do that- unless they're pissed off and about to take a swing.

Totally not this guy's intention, he was nice as could be and once I sorted out my instinctive reaction we got along famously.

And yes, the crowded nature of NYC bugs me. The personal spacing in general is off because everybody lives crammed in with everybody else, at least the parts I've been to. So people are accustomed to brushing up against each other. Sure, I live near an urban area, but it's sprawled out enough that we don't get those kind of crowds outside of big events, and outside of those events, we give each other plenty of room. It's fairly uncommon to make incidental physical contact with strangers here. People go through all sorts of unconscious gesticulations to avoid even brushing up against each other.

 

[ZRT]

It's a relative thing too- I was reasonably uncomfortable in the shitty areas I worked in over in Dallas, Houston, KC and the like, due to the off-turf issue, but at least in those places I was much closer culturally than up in the Northeast.

Anyway, still think I'm a dastardly faker Mohegan?

 

[Netzach]

I'm not talking about personal space. I'm talking about people who would like to see everyone in my family swinging from a tree, if you get them all drunk and candid about it.

If you think I'm being uncharitable I don't have to go very far into the red reaches of the internet for confirmation.

 

[ZRT]

I'm not talking about personal space. I'm talking about people who would like to see everyone in my family swinging from a tree, if you get them all drunk and candid about it.

If you think I'm being uncharitable I don't have to go very far into the red reaches of the internet for confirmation.

I never argued that point. I could understand why, if you don't have a tie with certain crowds, you'd have every reason to be concerned in dealing with them.

That said, I've also seen a lot of sympathy on the ground for Jews, because the red reaches also tend to be pro-Israel. At least in my part of the red area, people don't have negative stereotypes for Jews simply because there aren't any Jews around to form opinions on one way or another. I'm sure there's some idiot klanners here or there who espouse that nonsense, but in day to day (and drunken) discourse, you just don't get any animus at all, whereas you do get pro-Israeli sympathy when the topic comes up.

ETA: As for uncharitable and all, I can certainly say that in the case of ethnic groups that are visible and present, there are assholes who can be quite open about their racism. I'm not blind to the failings of this area, by any stretch.

 

[BiBunny]

I've lived in a smallish city in Alabama for the last seven years and in rural bumfucked nowhere Alabama for eighteen years before that. Maybe there are some whackjobs like people always like to talk about in the "rural red states," but I've never met them.

And Jews? Hell, most of us from where I'm from have never even MET a Jew. I didn't meet any Jewish people until I came to college. And they didn't seem that much different than me, really.

Maybe I'm just cranky, but I sort of resent the stereotypical characterization of us rednecky-type people, particularly by people who've never lived in this sort of environment. We're not as backwards as people seem to think, not these blue-collar, racist hillbillies who "cling to our guns and religion" because we're too stupid to know any better.

Yeah, I got out of my hometown and got an education, but I'd still love to live somewhere in the country. I mean, I could take people on a tour of Rednecksville, USA, and I guess they could draw their own conclusions, but I don't think "land of ignorant hicks" is really an accurate representation of my roots and my people.

 

[Netzach]

I'm talking about places that people in Austin were like "you don't wanna go there." I'm also talking about my current state. Redneckery isn't a Southern thing.

Forget it. Going into gun shops and being treated to "panzer division re-enactment" posters. I'm just paranoid and ignorant.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm talking about places that people in Austin were like "you don't wanna go there." I'm also talking about my current state. Redneckery isn't a Southern thing.

Forget it. Going into gun shops and being treated to "panzer division re-enactment" posters. I'm just paranoid and ignorant.

"Panzer division re-enactment?" WTF?

 

[Netzach]

"Panzer division re-enactment?" WTF?

Seriously.

WTF is right. Guys who get up in Nazi regalia and stroke their guns on weekends. Come one come all. Could I invent this one? No.

T was my tourguide into that place of business. I pointed this out to him. He's slow to see his Libertarian whacky goofy tendencies through Zionist conspiracy eyes as it were.

My point is merely this: to some people this is just mild insanity and part of the great spectrum of gun ownership, and if you take a step into someone else's comfort zone, they're the reason you buy a gun.

 

[BiBunny]

Seriously.

WTF is right. Guys who get up in Nazi regalia and stroke their guns on weekends. Come one come all. Could I invent this one? No.

T was my tourguide into that place of business. I pointed this out to him. He's slow to see his Libertarian whacky goofy tendencies through Zionist conspiracy eyes as it were.

My point is merely this: to some people this is just mild insanity and part of the great spectrum of gun ownership, and if you take a step into someone else's comfort zone, they're the reason you buy a gun.

I seriously have no words. Well, except to say that, thank God, I've never seen anything that stupid.

Civil War re-enactments, yes. Revolutionary War re-enactments, yes. At home, War of 1812 re-enactments, even. (I grew up only a few miles from the site of the largest Creek Indian massacre in the country. They re-enact the battle at the national park once a year. I sincerely doubt anyone from that area doesn't have at least a bit of Creek and/or Cherokee blood in them. I have some of both.)

But the panzer division re-enactment is a new one on me. Jesus.

As to your final point, I understand and agree.

 

[Netzach]

I seriously have no words. Well, except to say that, thank God, I've never seen anything that stupid.

Civil War re-enactments, yes. Revolutionary War re-enactments, yes. At home, War of 1812 re-enactments, even. (I grew up only a few miles from the site of the largest Creek Indian massacre in the country. They re-enact the battle at the national park once a year. I sincerely doubt anyone from that area doesn't have at least a bit of Creek and/or Cherokee blood in them. I have some of both.)

But the panzer division re-enactment is a new one on me. Jesus.

Isn't it special?

I think there's a certain central-west lunacy that doesn't exist in the South.

 

[BiBunny]

Isn't it special?

I think there's a certain central-west lunacy that doesn't exist in the South.

That is entirely possible.

 

[ZRT]

Isn't it special?

I think there's a certain central-west lunacy that doesn't exist in the South.

The Klan was reborn in the early twentieth century in the Midwest, especially in Indiana and Ohio.

 

[Netzach]

The Klan was reborn in the early twentieth century in the Midwest, especially in Indiana and Ohio.

I do think the South takes a lot more of a fall than needed for these things, no one has the patent on nutjobs.

My point is that my first impressions of the process of buying a gun involve, no shit, a "panzer re-enactment division" poster on the wall of the store. Wow. Not even noticed by my own squeeze in his own comfort-level womblike ahhh I love it here calm in the environs of his favorite gun shop.

Bear with me, though. Inglourious Basterds has come out. Obama is Hitler. Trivializing Nazis is so August '09, so I'm crusty.

 

[ZRT]

I do think the South takes a lot more of a fall than needed for these things, no one has the patent on nutjobs.

My point is that my first impressions of the process of buying a gun involve, no shit, a "panzer re-enactment division" poster on the wall of the store. Wow. Not even noticed by my own squeeze in his own comfort-level womblike ahhh I love it here calm in the environs of his favorite gun shop.

Bear with me, though. Inglourious Basterds has come out. Obama is Hitler. Trivializing Nazis is so August '09, so I'm crusty.

'Panzer re-enactment' is a new one on me too.

There are a group of people who do fetishize the Nazi chic for the simple sex appeal of fascism, sharp uniforms, and sleek, rakish equipment. But I can definitely agree that one shouldn't take the chance and be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on this.