Higher Education

[BlackSnake]

...

p.s. I still put education requirements on my requests to HR because it helps me winnow the field. I look for EE's - not Computer Sci or Info Sci - because we do board-level programming - my folks need to understand the electronics behind the OS. But my best programmer has a degree in History. And my best salesman came from a used car dealership.

Becareful...you may need someone who understand the problem and how to translate problems into solutions. I can and have written programs for hardware in C/C++. I also write GUI programs for n-teir systems. Just because someone has a degree in Information Systems doesn't mean that they can't be or aren't good programmers.

 

[BlackSnake]

I just spent about 15 minutes with Dr. Hunter. I think she was suprised when I got up after she told me that I need to turn in a writing sample, and take the "Advanced Fiction" undergraduate course before I would be accepted.

I am, after all, a programmer. I didn't see the need to stay and smile at her. I don't like it when someone comes in my office and wants to hang around. It makes me feel like they are looking for something. I didn't feel that I should use any more of her time than necessary.

 

[Jenny _S]

I just spent about 15 minutes with Dr. Hunter. I think she was suprised when I got up after she told me that I need to turn in a writing sample, and take the "Advanced Fiction" undergraduate course before I would be accepted.

I am, after all, a programmer. I didn't see the need to stay and smile at her. I don't like it when someone comes in my office and wants to hang around. It makes me feel like they are looking for something. I didn't feel that I should use any more of her time than necessary.

See? There you are, BS. Your stories aren't bad. You learn to write by writing. You improve your writing by reading and writing some more.

When I got my MS I thought about getting an in Lit at the same time. I didn't because I found all the profs to be a lazy, recalcitrant bunch who couldn't teach me anything anyway. Why waste their time and mine?

 

[Guest]

 

[BlackSnake]

See? There you are, BS. Your stories aren't bad. You learn to write by writing. You improve your writing by reading and writing some more.

When I got my MS I thought about getting an in Lit at the same time. I didn't because I found all the profs to be a lazy, recalcitrant bunch who couldn't teach me anything anyway. Why waste their time and mine?

When I first went to college, thirteen years after high shool my major was Accounting. I thought, "You're boring the shit out of me" and then I went to the CSIS department. Every since middle school I wanted to write a book, and produced tons of crap. I think I like writing fiction better than programming, because of my beliefs.

Programming: "Virtually anything is possible, because it's virtual."
Fiction Writing: "Anything is possible, because it doesn't exist."

 

[BlackSnake]

...

shouldn't dis school's just cause of some lazy-asses.


rhino-crushing another soapbox

Don't jump off your soapbox yet.

 

[Jenny _S]

Oh Yeah!

When I first went to college, thirteen years after high shool my major was Accounting. I thought, "You're boring the shit out of me" and then I went to the CSIS department. Every since middle school I wanted to write a book, and produced tons of crap. I think I like writing fiction better than programming, because of my beliefs.

Programming: "Virtually anything is possible, because it's virtual."
Fiction Writing: "Anything is possible, because it doesn't exist."

That's so true. I work all day and write half the night for exactly that reason.

 

[ffreak]

Sorry I took so long to get back.

Let me clarify my comment Snake.

I am not dissing folks who get their degree in Comp Sci or Info Sci. I have one working for me and he is very capable.

I use EE's because we are doing low-level work with the chips themselves. EE's have an advantage because of the chip design classes they had to take. But I NEVER hire blind based on resume and interview. I look for knowledge, imagination and a desire to learn.

Interestingly enough I know about 20 Comp Sci grads that are in everything but computers.

My real point is that getting a piece of paper just to have paper is not very useful. I also know people like that. My best admin in the group mentions that his degree is from UNC about 5 times a day. No one is impressed. He can barely program his way around our easiest assignments. But he always brings a project in on time and working correctly because he can get the right people to give him the parts of his project that they can do with little effort. Since we get paid for getting done he is valuable to me - and he learned that skill in school while he was trying to avoid homework and still get reasonable grades.

If you want to go to school because you like it, by all means go. If you think you need a particular piece of paper to get paid better, don't sell yourself short. Your current knowledge may well be worth more than you are getting. Eventually, if you keep your eyes open, an undeniable opportunity will knock.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Here's my thought...

As an educator, I value education above most things. There are many fields that "require" higher degrees, and should. You don't want a doctor who didn't go to med school, a lawyer who didn't go to law school, and you shouldn't want a teacher who doesn't have a masters degree at least (to the teachers who have bachelors...blast away, I still think that the undergrad degree isn't enough). The point is that degrees are vital.

Because bachelor's degrees have essentially taken the place of the high school degree 40 years ago, I feel that a bachelor's degree (in anything) is important to have. Even if you don't want to go into something like medicine or another elitist profession, it's hard to become management without some degree. Yes, there are many sucessful professionals who don't have college degrees, but they are the exception, rather than the rule. This of course also depends on where you live. Here in the Northeast, there is such a glut of bachelor's degrees that you practically need one to get a job at McDonalds (obviously I'm exaggerating, but you get what I'm saying). That may be less true in other parts of the country...I don't know...I've only ever lived in the Northeast and NYC. Living in Boston will also skew your perceptions of how necessary a degree is...there are over 100 colleges in the boston area and EVERYONE has a degree.

Here's the thing though, once you hit graduate degrees, you really need to think about why you're doing it and if it would be beneficial for you. In fields like literature, history and sociology, you continue to specialize...which is something that can work for you or against you. I was in danger of becoming pigeonholed as the "women's college historian" which 10 years down the line might not be who I want to be. These degrees are expensive, and they also curtail rather than expand your employment options. A bachelor's degree opens up a ton of doors for those who hold them; a master's degree suddenly makes you overqualified for quite a few employment options.

If you want to get a degree because you love the field and you want it to be your future, then go for it. If you just want to improve a technique, then take a class. In fact, taking a class is good for everyone...gives your brain some excercise and if you're not taking it for a degree you're free to enjoy it

 

[Weird Harold]

As an educator, I value education above most things. There are many fields that "require" higher degrees, and should. You don't want a doctor who didn't go to med school, a lawyer who didn't go to law school, and you shouldn't want a teacher who doesn't have a masters degree at least (to the teachers who have bachelors...blast away, I still think that the undergrad degree isn't enough). The point is that degrees are vital.

I think you're confusing Education with Certification.

I want a Doctor who knows what he's doing and cares about his patients -- I'd prefer a competent Certified EMT who cares about my pain to Multiply Degreed Neuro-surgeon who is more concerned about the payments on his Mercedes and Mansion than he is about my headaches.

I want a Lawyer who knows the law and could care less about where he learned about the law.

Some of the best teachers I've ever met weren't teachers, per se, but people who loved their subject matter and cared enough to pass on their knowledge to others.

Degrees are useful, but hardly"vital." It's the eduction the degrees are supposed to represent that is "vital" although there are far too few employers that can tell the difference.

When it comes to Doctors, Lawyers, and Teachers, I'm more concerned about licensing and certification requirements than I am about the degrees the individuals hold. Degrees are often easy to come by without gaining the education they're supposed to represent -- thus the increasing lack of importance of a simple BA to the level of a high school diploma.

Itotally agree with you that Education is important, but I've met too many people who are prouder of the paper that says they're "educated" than the the education they didn't get along with the paper.

 

[ffreak]

My apologies, Delicious, you are absolutely right.

I am in technology invention where there is very broad room to make mistakes and 'catch' them before a product is released.

I also would not want to have an unqualified person performing a health care procedure (though that is the trend with Physician Assistants that have training through a Master's but not the MD, not the residency.)

I have noticed a trend among Bachelor degree holders that disturbs me - less and less ability to demonstrate they actually were paying attention in school. I have interviewed maybe a couple dozen over the last year who would have been lost in the conversations on this board. OK, we're kind-of out there on this thread, but I mean the wit, the references, even the vocabulary.

I think it is desirable, even necessary that people take the opportunity to get education when they can (I also think education continues after college). And, I think people should add as much liberal arts to their class list as they can - even when they are in a science major.

(And I know I use 'and' too much and even start sentences with 'and'. And the bible does too. Long story behind that.)

 

[Guest]

A word about doctors.

When I gave birth to my sons I was in labor, in the hospital, several hours (5 tol 8 is what I recall). I still remember the nurses' faces and names. They were at my side the entire time, helping with the Lamaze, giving me chips of ice, rubbing my trembling limbs, speaking soothingly, keeping my husband away at the right times (haha). At the very end, with the crowning, the doctor appeared. With my youngest son he almost didn't. The nurse was ready to catch him but Doc ran in just in time. That's ALL he did - appear and catch my baby as he entered the world. For that Doc's license earned him thousands of dollars more though than "my" angel nurse.

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

Doctors and Nurses

My youngest is studying to be a doctor. It is a six year course followed by in hospital placement making a minimum seven years to qualify as a MB. She has just got her BSc. in Microbiology and Psychology on the way. When she finishes she knows she will have the certificates but not all the experience she needs to be a doctor. She will expect to work and learn as part of a team.

Fully qualified nurses in the UK have training equivalent to a Bachelor's degree but learn with a large proportion of hands-on work. When they qualify they have the certificate and the experience. Most continue to study for specialisms such as obstetrics or theatre. But not all nurses are fully qualified. Some are part qualified but fully trained in the procedures for their particular area of work.

Doctors and nurses are complementary professionals. Neither should be underestimated but nurses are.

When I was young, admission to a nurses training school was nearly as difficult as admission to a medical school. Now nursing is easier to start but just as difficult to finish.

Og

 

[Guest]

Re: Doctors and Nurses

Doctors and nurses are complementary professionals. Neither should be underestimated but nurses are.

Undervalued nurses (particularly monetarily) are a big issue here, and the near future forecast for a shortage of nurses looms large. My Uni has a nursing school and I know well the demanding study and training. My prof friends in the liberal arts college love their nursing students saying they're the most studious and interested in subjects such as literature, philosophy, history, etc.

 

[ffreak]

There is a small town in TN that I go to often on business. If I have a medical problem there I do the same thing the local farmers do - I visit the nurse practitioner whose office is next to the pharmacy. I would never use the local hospital's poor excuse for a medical staff. If I had to be taken to a hospital I would ask to go to the larger town 45 miles away.

The nurse I speak of not only has more sense than any of the doctors in that town, she has more practical experience. (She also has two Master's - one in Nursing, and one in Education. But better than that, she uses her training. She is also a Captain in the reserves and as such trains other nurses.

Not all doctors are so untrustworthy. But the old adage comes to mind - where do doctors practice medicine who graduate with a C- average?

 

[BlackSnake]

I just finished my happy dance, since I solved yet another issue on an n-tier software solution.

I began having a problem with my undergraduate program of study before I began taking the senior level courses. The problem was that I was learning more and at a higher level than what was offered in class. While taking C/C++, which was the core programming language at the time, I didn't even purchase a textbook. One of my professors would say after he asked a question, "Anybody, but Mr. Q." The hardest thing I did was writing a simple OS (programming the queue nearly killed me).

Going for a Master's in Professional Writing is a personal thing. I am doing OK, money wise as a programmer. Getting a MIS or MCS seems pointless. Certificates are completely out of the question. I’m looking out of my office door into an office. I see 5 MCSE certificates, and yet (1) my 2 servers got hit by the last worm, and (2) I had to fix them myself. Professionally, I told him not to worry about it. Personally, I thought "You sorry sack of shit!"

Taking classes I believe will give me some background in the field, but mostly education is free for me, so getting a Master's degree for self-fulfillment is a win-win situation.

 

[BlackSnake]

When I took my core classes I didn't even give much of a thought to the liberal arts classes. I took threater opposed to music, and I didn't go to more than 3 of the 12 plays we were assigned, and I barely showed up to class. I got a "B" in that class because I didn't play close enough attention to the syllabus and completely missed an assignment. I was in the mode of "just tell me what I needed to know to take the test or do the assignments."

I might have enjoyed some my core classes, if I would have really given them a chance.

 

[ffreak]

Way to go, Snake. Sounds like you are learning for the best reasons.

 

[BlackSnake]

Way to go, Snake. Sounds like you are learning for the best reasons.

I just hope it's not because I don't have to pay for it out-of-pocket. That evil green stuff

 

[ffreak]

NO, because it sounds like you are learning about what you want to know.

I hated English classes until I took literature, Shakespeare, Creative writing. (Those of you who pick my grammar and puctuation apart, evidently you loved those English classes. But don't let that be an excuse to stop editing me. I do appreciate your efforts and trying to reform my writing.)

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I think you're confusing Education with Certification.

Degrees are useful, but hardly"vital." It's the eduction the degrees are supposed to represent that is "vital" although there are far too few employers that can tell the difference.

When it comes to Doctors, Lawyers, and Teachers, I'm more concerned about licensing and certification requirements than I am about the degrees the individuals hold. Degrees are often easy to come by without gaining the education they're supposed to represent -- thus the increasing lack of importance of a simple BA to the level of a high school diploma.

Itotally agree with you that Education is important, but I've met too many people who are prouder of the paper that says they're "educated" than the the education they didn't get along with the paper.

Two points..

1. I agree that people should take more pride in their education than in their degree. However, as the first person in my family to get a college degree I'm pretty damn proud of my degree.

2. While I think that people can have a degree without being "educated," getting certified often requires that you have that degree and those courses. I don't know about doctors or lawyers, but let's examine MA teacher certification laws.

For my degree...Elementary Ed (grades 1-6)
For the lowest cert, which you need to renew every year you need a BA, a course in teaching reading, a course in teaching math (we have state tests in english and math that students must pass to eventually graduate so the biggest concern is there) and a course on teaching English/writing. You also have to pass 3 state administered exams...one in Literacy and Communication (Essentially can you read and comprehend literature, do you know grammar, and can you write coherently), one called the Elementary Subject exam (with sections on the four content areas, child pyschology, and special ed), and a Foundations of Reading Exam (do you understand how children learn to read, and can you diagnose the correct course of action).

For the next level, you need to have 135 instructional hours under the direction of a "master teacher" and you have to prove competency in all the subject areas...usually through a state certfied master's program.

For the highest level of certification you need your Master's degree and 3 years of classroom experience.


FOR highschool history...
Lowest level-You need a BA in history and to pass the state history exam
Not sure about the other levels

Massachusetts requires a Masters Degree within 5 years of starting to teach.


On the other hand, I can also say that on the job experience in ed has taught me a lot of practical information that I never would get in college. But I never would have been a decent Math teacher without the help of the "how to teach math class."


But again, we're going to have to face the fact that as a teacher and a lover of school and all things educational I have a major blindspot when it comes to the necessity of formal education. I spend all day reinforcing the importance of formal education and trying to instill of a love of it that I can't get past it. And to be honest I don't really want to get past it.


A last thought...
I think the reason that the BA has so little value has more to do with the glut of people who have them. In the past 50 years, there has been so much more in the way of financial aid and means to afford higher ed that it has become extended high school.

As to people who have BA's who couldn't keep up with us...I blame that more on the way that even liberal arts colleges structure their requirements. As a history/literature/french lover I wiggled out of the math/science requirement by taking a math class that only required I learn how to run a piece of software and a nutrition class where I only had to read a chapter a week and show up long enough for the test. I wish I had been a little more serious about those fields. People who are pre-med or bio or whatever majors can easily get out of the humanities requirements as easily. There are also "party schools" who have pathetic requirements to graduate. There's always a quick and dirty way around the requirements if you want to. There are also a large number of people who are obviously only there because mommy and daddy checked "no financial aid needed" and they tend to skid (no, I'm not saying that people who don't earn it don't excel at it...BUT the ones who throw away their education usually are...when they're there on scholarship there's more accountability). If colleges were much more strict and required more diversity in courses (or maybe even became a 5 year program to fit in the extra courses) maybe that might raise the value. Dunno...if I had the solution, I'd be rich.

 

[ffreak]

Why couldn't I have had more teachers like you? There's a TOY award somewhere in your future.

I was a math major and very lucky in that I had a few really good, dedicated teachers (some even in my subject). The rest saw it as a paycheck and did the minimum to 'teach' their students.

But my cynical view should not affect your view anymore than to guard against the demons of apathy. Stay as passionate as you are now - for the students.

"If to look truth in the face and not resent it when it's unpalatable, and take human nature as you find it . . . is to be cynical, then I suppose I'm a cynic."
-SOMERSET MAUGHAM

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Why couldn't I have had more teachers like you? There's a TOY award somewhere in your future.

I was a math major and very lucky in that I had a few really good, dedicated teachers (some even in my subject). The rest saw it as a paycheck and did the minimum to 'teach' their students.

But my cynical view should not affect your view anymore than to guard against the demons of apathy. Stay as passionate as you are now - for the students.

"If to look truth in the face and not resent it when it's unpalatable, and take human nature as you find it . . . is to be cynical, then I suppose I'm a cynic."
-SOMERSET MAUGHAM

Blush and thank you...

Don't get me wrong...I have the days where I want to beat my head against something, or toss back a few shots before 10 (WANT, not have or ever would). But I love my students, my subject areas, and I can't imagine doing anything else (well, I can IMAGINE being a broadway star or a famous writer...wink). Even on those days when it all seems to be going wrong (they knew 4x7 yesterday! No, Clara Barton didn't help in the 9/11 clean up. Why can't your dad go to the mall?...oh, he stole stuff, um thank you for sharing that with me) I LOVE my job.

Grin...the last quote happened on my first day of teaching. I was referencing the local mall and one of the little girls said my daddy can't go there...I was stupid enough to ask why. Yup, came right out and said "he stole something." My reply was actually "I'm sure he's sorry. Now, how about....change of subject" There are times when you're going to be floored by your students.

 

[Weird Harold]

Two points..

1. I agree that people should take more pride in their education than in their degree. However, as the first person in my family to get a college degree I'm pretty damn proud of my degree.

2. While I think that people can have a degree without being "educated," getting certified often requires that you have that degree and those courses.

It sounds to me like you're as proud of being educated as you are of your degree -- I just wish I'd met more people who felt that way.

Degrees are often an important part of certification requirements and where that is the case, they're a critical element of a career choice. If you choose a career, like education, where specific educational degrees are required to "fill in the blanks" then the degree becomes more important than the education it represents.

I made a conscious choice long ago to avoid any careeer where the degree was more important than the knowledge.

On the other hand, I can also say that on the job experience in ed has taught me a lot of practical information that I never would get in college. But I never would have been a decent Math teacher without the help of the "how to teach math class."


But again, we're going to have to face the fact that as a teacher and a lover of school and all things educational I have a major blindspot when it comes to the necessity of formal education. I spend all day reinforcing the importance of formal education and trying to instill of a love of it that I can't get past it. And to be honest I don't really want to get past it.

Please don't misunderstand my stand on formal education -- I'm all in favor of as much formal education as can be managed. I just don't believe that a formal setting is the only, or even always the best, place to learn something.

Your OJT experience is a good example of how formal education needs to be applied before it's really complete.

A last thought...
I think the reason that the BA has so little value has more to do with the glut of people who have them. In the past 50 years, there has been so much more in the way of financial aid and means to afford higher ed that it has become extended high school.

I think there are a lot of reasons for the devaluation of a BA degree -- your assertion that they're more common is one of the major factors, but it's not the only factor.

From personal observation over the last 30 years or so, I'd say that the education backing a BA has also been "devalued" -- at least in terms of the readiness for coping with the real world it represents. 60 years ago, prior to WWII, a seventh grade education prepared a person for living independently and responsibly. I'm not sure that even a high-school diploma fits that description today; a BA just might.

However, the changes in the job market that require more basic knowledge to compete is also a big factor.

Going back to the original premise of this thread, Writing is is one of the few "careers" where a formal education is still less important than ability. I'm not even sure that writing well can be taught to someone who doesn't have the talent to write well. If writing can be taught, I think that courses in psychology and other classes that emphasize how people think and react to subconscious cues would be of more use than grammar and "creative writing" courses that deal with the technical details.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Going back to the original premise of this thread, Writing is is one of the few "careers" where a formal education is still less important than ability. I'm not even sure that writing well can be taught to someone who doesn't have the talent to write well. If writing can be taught, I think that courses in psychology and other classes that emphasize how people think and react to subconscious cues would be of more use than grammar and "creative writing" courses that deal with the technical details.

Thanks for the compliment at the beginning of your post...I am as proud of my ed as I am my degree.

I think you make very relevant points in this last paragraph that I quoted. In teaching, you need courses to fill gaps (as you put it) and to help you get to where you are qualified to do what you need to do. In writing, there isn't a whole lot that a degree in Creative Writing will offer you. It doesn't make you more publishable, it doesn't net you higher sales, etc. Only writing makes you a better writer (to a certain degree, only doing makes anybody a better anything). I think that pysch and sociology courses are great suggestions