Higher Education

[MikeAndJan]

Do you need the credentials?

I only have about a year of college myself. My wife has eight. I'll be the first to admit that education is valuable, but I think that writing is a natural talent that isn't taught, it's perfected by practice. I've been writing since I was a little kid. Mostly poetry until I got in the service, but as an adult I've tried all kinds. I love to experiment with my writing. I'm not much of a reader (except for the threesome and couple stories on this site, especially if the men aren't homophobic , but I read other things to see the style. I've written in 1st person, 2nd person, and have finally found that 3rd person is easiest to tell the story properly. The erotic stories I've written here were my fantasy and I have to admit that I had hopes that they might encourage my wife to live out a few of them..., well I can still hope can't I? My wife is a reader and says she couldn't write if she had to. She sure helps me though with her advice. In fact, I'm going to have my first YA adventure novel published next spring.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Re: Do you need the credentials?

I think that writing is a natural talent that isn't taught, it's perfected by practice.

Here's where I think you're wrong. While some people (myself included) are lucky enough to have the gift of putting pen to paper easily, not all do. As an elementary school teacher, I have to teach students to write. Some are naturally gifted, and only need some support. Others are baffled by the writing process and have major problems translating thoughts to paper.

However, this is not just a childhood problem. When I was an undergrad I was asked to tutor in our writing center. One of the professors biggest complaints was that many students (at least half) didn't know how to write. Not everyone understands the concept of topic sentences, flow, or even how to make a sentence readable. For them, it is a struggle that needs constant support.

There are people who are naturally musically inclined, but even if I'm not, I can learn to play an instrument well.

There are people who are naturally mathmatically inclined, but many people struggle to learn how to do computation.

There are some of us who are naturally inclined to communicate through the medium of writing, but it is a skill that can be taught, like anything else.

Saying something *can't* be taught is a dangerous comment. It gives people an easy out. If you want to learn how to write, and it doesn't come naturally, you *can* learn.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Do you need the credentials?

There are people who are naturally musically inclined, but even if I'm not, I can learn to play an instrument well.

There are some of us who are naturally inclined to communicate through the medium of writing, but it is a skill that can be taught, like anything else.

Saying something *can't* be taught is a dangerous comment. It gives people an easy out. If you want to learn how to write, and it doesn't come naturally, you *can* learn.

Music and writing are two fields where there has to be a "spark" of talent to nurture before instruction is of any real use.

You're correct that the technical process can be taught to anyone, but the technical process is NOT what makes a "writer" or "musician;" What makes a Writer or Musician is Talent.

There are people who are tone deaf and will never be able to sing or play an instrument and, IMHO, there are also people who will never learn more than the technical theory of communicating in any medium.

Almost anyone can become a competent writer, but without the natural talent for story-telling most will never become "Writers" -- at least not writers of fiction.

 

[ffreak]

I think I agree with you Harold. There is writing and there is storytelling. One can be taught, the other is a natural talent.

To write well (or at least with an accepted formula), one can learn and follow rules. To tell a story that captivates and holds the attention of the audience requires talent.

We speak of sustaining the suspension of disbelief in a story, and we give rules to avoid losing this necessary relationship with the reader. We analyze ways to vary the outcome of each scene, and how the character should internalize, plan and act. But we cannot teach a good storyteller how to allow their characters to take over a plot and carry the story into realms the writer never expected. In this case the how comes from within the well of talent - and for most (and perhaps all talented storytellers) is a complete mystery.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I think there has been a misunderstanding. What I critiqued was M&J saying that writing couldn't be taught. How I percieved this comment was that the skill could not be taught. It can, just as technically playing an instrument can be taught.

I see, however, a vast difference between learning how to write well, and being a "writer." Which is why I wrote my diatribe.

I think that ffreak made the best distinction

There is also a difference between storytellers and writers of non-fiction, or other writing. You have to learn to write like a historian, or a computer tech to write for your field. Storytelling skill, in those arenas, often hurts, rather than helps your writing. Some are able to do it well (Catherine Allgor, Nancy Cott, et al) but many do not. Then there are those who do it too well, and try to impose a personality on a historical figure for which there is not enough evidence to do so (a day in the life of cecilia penifader).

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Do you need the credentials?

There are people who are tone deaf and will never be able to sing or play an instrument ...

I would add at the end of the quote "well". I hate to put limitations on people. I love when children give their all to learning something and hate when an adult comes in and judges the quality by their or other standards.

My father was a great story-teller but illiterate. He inspired and encouraged my brothers and me to read and draw. We are all good writers and illustrators (to be judged by degrees but that doesn't matter to us).

Harold, I only used your quote to express my opinion, no argument here, or judgement.

Perdita

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Re: Re: Do you need the credentials?

... Saying something *can't* be taught is a dangerous comment. It gives people an easy out. If you want to learn how to write, and it doesn't come naturally, you *can* learn.

I agree with this, as well as varioius other things you've posted, d_n. But I'd go further than this in sketching the implications of that sort of thinking. Not only does it give individuals an "alibi" for not learning to write or draw or dance or play an instrument, it also gives the public at large an alibi for cutting programs and funding where people can learn to do those things. I mean, if you assume that creative thinking and creative skills are something you're born with--or not--why bother to fund arts programs, right? (And of course that is exactly what is happening around the country nowadays.)

This "talent" myth with regard to the arts is pernicious. Just because little Jane or little Johnny won't grow up to be James Joyce or Mozart doesn't mean she or he shouldn't be taught to express him/herself in those ways.

 

[Weird Harold]

I think that ffreak made the best distinction

There is also a difference between storytellers and writers of non-fiction, or other writing. You have to learn to write like a historian, or a computer tech to write for your field. Storytelling skill, in those arenas, often hurts, rather than helps your writing.

I totally agree with ffreak's distinction and your point about all of the different kinds of writing and the amount of "talent" required.

A complete lack of storytelling talent is actually very rare, and if there is any spark of talent at all, it can be nurtured and trained -- and should be nurtured and trained as far as it can be.

Like Perdita, I hate to put limitations on people, but I'm a pragmatist and recognise that people do have limitations and believe that everyone should learn to recognise what their limitations are. False praise of totally inept work does nobody any good.

In the context of this thread, I'm loath to present the impression that a degree in creative writing is a magic wand that will put an aspiring writer on the NYT Best Seller list.

An education in writing techique can be a valuable tool to bypass many of the pitfalls awaiting a self-taught writer and will definitely help hone whatever talent is present to it's highest degree -- whatever genre or field of writing is contemplated.

What education I have regarding "writing" was oriented towards writing reports and checklists -- ie technical writing -- and it has made learning to write fiction difficult. Still, there are many things I learned about technical writing that apply to writing fiction and I can confidently assert that ANY writing course will add something to a writers "toolkit".

Hamletsmachine:
This "talent" myth with regard to the arts is pernicious. Just because little Jane or little Johnny won't grow up to be James Joyce or Mozart doesn't mean she or he shouldn't be taught to express him/herself in those ways.

In a broader context than this thread, I agree that there is a sad and serious decline in "The Arts" in educational funding. I believe that every child/student should have the chance to discover if they have a talent in the arts and develop it as much as possible. Without creative writing courses, art courses, music courses, and all of theother arts courses that are falling to budget cuts, there are going to be many potential good authors, poets, musicians et al that will go undiscovered and undeveloped.

However, in the context of this thread's premise, that broader context doesn't apply -- there are many degree programs tailored for those with the talent and interest in the Arts that will persist for as long as there are people with the talent and interest to go beyond the basics.

For those with a real natural talent for story-telling the advanced classes and degrees in "writing" are mostly "gilding the lily" rather than a necessary part of becoming a "writer." They can hone and polish natural skills and certify a certain level of skill for those prospective employers that require paper instead of proof.

Fortunately writing -- whether technical or creative -- is a field where results still trump educational level. A person with talent and a grade-school formal education can still out-earn a PhD.

 

[Guest]

Fortunately writing -- whether technical or creative -- is a field where results still trump educational level. A person with talent and a grade-school formal education can still out-earn a PhD.

This is true. I actually feel bad each year when I see the new faculty hires earn less than me (well not that bad); but then my job is to help them with their research, and eventually they'll earn more than me (which I do not begrduge in the least). I love working at a place with intelligent and creative people, could never go back to the world of finance.

Perdita

 

[Hamletmaschine]

... in the context of this thread's premise, that broader context doesn't apply -- there are many degree programs tailored for those with the talent and interest in the Arts that will persist for as long as there are people with the talent and interest to go beyond the basics.

I'm a bit less sanquine than you are, I guess. The more specialized context of the advanced degree program in the arts is affected by the larger context in which arts programs in grade schools and high schools are being cut, because they're being cut in higher education, too.

However, I did jump into the thread in the middle. Sorry about that.

And I don't disagree with you, really: an advanced degree in the arts is not a certification of ability, no more than a law degree or an MBA is a guarantee of ability to win a court case or run a company. To be honest, I think the only reason one needs an advanced degree in the arts--apart from the fact that such programs are good places to get networked into the profession, if you go to the right places--is if one plans to teach in higher education.

 

[BlackSnake]

I think I agree with you Harold. There is writing and there is storytelling. One can be taught, the other is a natural talent.

To write well (or at least with an accepted formula), one can learn and follow rules. To tell a story that captivates and holds the attention of the audience requires talent.

We speak of sustaining the suspension of disbelief in a story, and we give rules to avoid losing this necessary relationship with the reader. We analyze ways to vary the outcome of each scene, and how the character should internalize, plan and act. But we cannot teach a good storyteller how to allow their characters to take over a plot and carry the story into realms the writer never expected. In this case the how comes from within the well of talent - and for most (and perhaps all talented storytellers) is a complete mystery.

FFreak, in the interest of not loosing my attitude...that was off-da-hook!

 

[BlackSnake]

... Then there are those who do it too well, and try to impose a personality on a historical figure for which there is not enough evidence to do so (a day in the life of cecilia penifader).

I see this as just bias in journalism, not so much as a talent.

 

[BlackSnake]

I don't see much disagreement here comparing talent to skill. I think that if you do have a talent then refining that talent through formal educational means increases the potential for you talent.

 

[ffreak]

??? Loose away, Snake plz expln how you feel it is 'off-da-hook'?

I do want to add my comment about classes or seminars being as good a thing as a writer makes of them. Anyone attending a setting where other people tell what works for them can be good. Whether the student has no more than a passing interest and curiosity to see if they may get something from the expenditure of time, or if the widely published writer hopes to add to their repertoire of skills, it is time well spent.

I'm skeptically looking at material that claims to help you write a book in 10 days. So far I'm basically unimpressed. But if you want to prepare a table-top book (not my interest), the promoter's formulations would work. Yet with all the waste, he has some intriguing comments about how to market and sell the end product.

(No, I do not write presidential speeches.)