highly sadistic perpetrator who did all he could to have a slave

[Marquis]

Put them down like mad dogs.

The appeals process that is the right of every prisoner sentenced to death is much more expensive than keeping them in prison for life. That's even less money for education.

I would support an expedited appeals process, but the judicial system sucks as it is. Tons of innocent people are put to death and the death penalty is handed out extremely prejudicially. The abolishment of the death penalty is truly the only humane thing to do.

 

[Netzach]

What planet are you from?

Is it so hard to interpret someone saying:

"This is wrong" as "This is wrong, in my opinion"?

Given the ultimately subjective nature of all of our thoughts, aren't those words implicit in everything we say?

Why are you using this thread as your personal platform to preach about the subjectivity of moral judgments?

Just to show everyone how deep and wise you are?

I don't think anyone is impressed, but then again, I can only speak for myself.

This absurd degree of chestpuffing usually indicates one of 3 things in my experience:
1. You are an alt, come back with a score to settle.
2. Your SO also posts on or reads this board, and you want to show her how cool and dominant you are
3. You've decided you want to be top dog alpha around here, and you haven't given the other big dogs nearly enough credit.


But then again, I could be wrong. Maybe you're a really attractive, magnetic and charismatic person in real life, and you're used to people melting when you enunciate the words you can only bold here.

Whatever the case, you seem to have some intelligence, if not a lot of sense. Why not step down to our level and engage us in the conversation we're actually having?

You forgot another probable cause: Sophomore Philo.

 

[JMohegan]

The appeals process that is the right of every prisoner sentenced to death is much more expensive than keeping them in prison for life. That's even less money for education.

I would support an expedited appeals process, but the judicial system sucks as it is. Tons of innocent people are put to death and the death penalty is handed out extremely prejudicially. The abolishment of the death penalty is truly the only humane thing to do.

Marquis, you have probably seen this.

But for anyone else who is genuinely interested in the death penalty issue, I urge you to read this speech by former Illinois Governor George Ryan.

An excerpt:

"After Mr. Porter’s case there was the report by Chicago Tribune reporters Steve Mills and Ken Armstrong documenting the systemic failures of our capital punishment system. Half of the nearly 300 capital cases in Illinois had been reversed for a new trial or resentencing.

Nearly Half!

Thirty-three of the death row inmates were represented at trial by an attorney who had later been disbarred or at some point suspended from practicing law.

Of the more than 160 death row inmates, 35 were African American defendants who had been convicted or condemned to die by all-white juries.

More than two-thirds of the inmates on death row were African American.

Forty-six inmates were convicted on the basis of testimony from jailhouse informants.

I can recall looking at these cases and the information from the Mills/Armstrong series and asking my staff: How does that happen? How in God’s name does that happen? I’m not a lawyer, so somebody explain it to me.

But no one could. Not to this day."

 

[MorfeuV]

Hmmm.

Is it so hard to interpret someone saying:

"This is wrong" as "This is wrong, in my opinion"?

Given the ultimately subjective nature of all of our thoughts, aren't those words implicit in everything we say?

I'm glad you realize this.

Why are you using this thread as your personal platform to preach about the subjectivity of moral judgments?

You're just asking me "Why aren't you like me"?

I don't think anyone is impressed, but then again, I can only speak for myself.

This absurd degree of chestpuffing usually indicates one of 3 things in my experience:
1. You are an alt, come back with a score to settle.
2. Your SO also posts on or reads this board, and you want to show her how cool and dominant you are
3. You've decided you want to be top dog alpha around here, and you haven't given the other big dogs nearly enough credit.

What are you talking about?

I really don't care if I sound like an idiot or a "smart guy", because I'm learning.

Maybe the people that you know, debate to sound cool or impress someone.

I really don't give a fuck about that.

But then again, I could be wrong. Maybe you're a really attractive, magnetic and charismatic person in real life, and you're used to people melting when you enunciate the words you can only bold here.

I debate to learn.

I enjoy controversy.

I like to challenge myself and others.

 

[MorfeuV]

Hahaha!

You forgot another probable cause: Sophomore Philo.

I think I'm starting to like you Netzach!

You were always there to critique my every post from the very begining.

I'm flattered.

I think I'm falling in love!

How about dinner and a movie?

 

[Hooper_X]

The appeals process that is the right of every prisoner sentenced to death is much more expensive than keeping them in prison for life. That's even less money for education.

I would support an expedited appeals process, but the judicial system sucks as it is. Tons of innocent people are put to death and the death penalty is handed out extremely prejudicially. The abolishment of the death penalty is truly the only humane thing to do.

There is nothing in the United States Constitution that guarantees convicted criminals endless appeals. Such "rights" are within the realm of the several states. And, state constitutions and statutes are comparatively easy to alter and amend. Some state constitutions have been changed hundreds of times as compared to just 27 times for the U.S. Constitution.

I don't believe these cost are accurate. There is no question that the up-front costs of a death penalty conviction are higher. However, when anti-death penalty activists quote costs, they usually contrast the cost of a death penalty verdict through execution with the cost for all non-death penalty verdicts to the end of incarceration... not just those sentenced to life without parole. Moreover, they don't factor into the life incarceration costs inflation, appeals, protected custody which is often necessary in these types of cases, and a realistic lifespan for an average lifer. In addition, most sexual predators have a long history of escalating criminal sexual deviance and arrests which inexorably lead to their committing a capital offense. These cost are, likewise, not factored into the capital punishment debate. If they were put down at the time of their first conviction for criminal sexual conduct involving a child, the economics weigh even more heavily in favor of the death penalty. The more significant issue, however, is the human cost. Sexual predators, especially paedophiles, are incorrigible recidivists. Most people convicted for these crimes do not even receive life in prison. Setting them loose in society is just playing Russian roulette with the lives of any children who happen to cross their paths.

While I agree with you as to the, specifically racially and socio-economically, uneven application of the death penalty, especially in southern states, crimes against children are so abhorrent as to warrant that risk. These kinds of offenses are in fact so abhorrent to society , that these crimes don't fly even among violent criminals in maximum security prisons.

 

[Marquis]

There is nothing in the United States Constitution that guarantees convicted criminals endless appeals. Such "rights" are within the realm of the several states. And, state constitutions and statutes are comparatively easy to alter and amend. Some state constitutions have been changed hundreds of times as compared to just 27 times for the U.S. Constitution.

I assume you're applying hyperbole when you say "endless appeals," but other than that you're totally incorrect. The right to fair judicial treatment is clearly enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

I don't believe these cost are accurate. There is no question that the up-front costs of a death penalty conviction are higher. However, when anti-death penalty activists quote costs, they usually contrast the cost of a death penalty verdict through execution with the cost for all non-death penalty verdicts to the end of incarceration... not just those sentenced to life without parole. Moreover, they don't factor into the life incarceration costs inflation, appeals, protected custody which is often necessary in these types of cases, and a realistic lifespan for an average lifer. In addition, most sexual predators have a long history of escalating criminal sexual deviance and arrests which inexorably lead to their committing a capital offense. These cost are, likewise, not factored into the capital punishment debate. If they were put down at the time of their first conviction for criminal sexual conduct involving a child, the economics weigh even more heavily in favor of the death penalty. The more significant issue, however, is the human cost. Sexual predators, especially paedophiles, are incorrigible recidivists. Most people convicted for these crimes do not even receive life in prison. Setting them loose in society is just playing Russian roulette with the lives of any children who happen to cross their paths.

While I agree with you as to the, specifically racially and socio-economically, uneven application of the death penalty, especially in southern states, crimes against children are so abhorrent as to warrant that risk. These kinds of offenses are in fact so abhorrent to society , that these crimes don't fly even among violent criminals in maximum security prisons.

It's easy to lie with statistics, so I don't doubt that the cost/benefit analysis I've heard previously may be skewed. However American culture dictates a punitive policy in which it is "better to let ten guilty men go free than punish a single innocent man." The logic behind this has been very well reasoned throughout the years, and I'm not going to get into it here beyond saying that I agree with it, and that a legal system that recognizes its own fallibility is a wise one.

 

[Marquis]

I think I'm starting to like you Netzach!

You were always there to critique my every post from the very begining.

I'm flattered.

I think I'm falling in love!

How about dinner and a movie?

HA HA HA!!!

He's all yours Netz!!!

I got curious and looked through your other posts MorfeuV, and everything is making a lot more sense now. To be honest, I think Netzach is just what you need, but you'll never get a woman like her behaving like this.

In another thread you asked for advice on how to get what you want, and I'm trying to give it to you.

You see, I dated a female just like you. Craving for submission, but simply too alpha to submit to anyone but God. Constantly complaining about having to lower yourself to make yourself more easily dominated by the incapable. The only one fit to Dominate you is an apparition created by your own imagination.

My advice?

Stop thinking so much and start doing more. Then think about what you do, not just about what you've read or heard.

Good luck bro, you're going to need it.

 

[O'Mac]

*big yawn* So....what's up everyone? Did I miss some sorta debate do-hickey in here or something?

 

[Netzach]

While I agree with you as to the, specifically racially and socio-economically, uneven application of the death penalty, especially in southern states, crimes against children are so abhorrent as to warrant that risk. These kinds of offenses are in fact so abhorrent to society , that these crimes don't fly even among violent criminals in maximum security prisons.

The fact that crimes concerning children produce such strong emotional reactions and group-think makes them especially suceptible to shoddy factual work and eagerness to convict on ANYTHING.

I'd say in cases where there really are few grey areas and a strong DNA link you may be right, but barring that you have way too much hysteria in the mix. Capturing the Friedmans comes to mind.

 

[Hooper_X]

I assume you're applying hyperbole when you say "endless appeals," but other than that you're totally incorrect. The right to fair judicial treatment is clearly enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

Where exactly is this right of appeals enumerated in the Bill of Rights? It certainly isn't in the 4th, 5th or 6th amendments. Nor does there seem to be any mention of such rights of appeal in article three of the Constitution, which establishes the judiciary.

However American culture dictates a punitive policy in which it is "better to let ten guilty men go free than punish a single innocent man." The logic behind this has been very well reasoned throughout the years, and I'm not going to get into it here beyond saying that I agree with it, and that a legal system that recognizes its own fallibility is a wise one.

I agree with this standard of punitive discretion up to but not including sexual predation upon children. In that case, I believe that society's interest in protecting our young supersedes all else.

 

[Aeroil]

Marquis, you have probably seen this.

But for anyone else who is genuinely interested in the death penalty issue, I urge you to read this speech by former Illinois Governor George Ryan.

An excerpt:

"After Mr. Porter’s case there was the report by Chicago Tribune reporters Steve Mills and Ken Armstrong documenting the systemic failures of our capital punishment system. Half of the nearly 300 capital cases in Illinois had been reversed for a new trial or resentencing.

Nearly Half!

Thirty-three of the death row inmates were represented at trial by an attorney who had later been disbarred or at some point suspended from practicing law.

Of the more than 160 death row inmates, 35 were African American defendants who had been convicted or condemned to die by all-white juries.

More than two-thirds of the inmates on death row were African American.

Forty-six inmates were convicted on the basis of testimony from jailhouse informants.

I can recall looking at these cases and the information from the Mills/Armstrong series and asking my staff: How does that happen? How in God’s name does that happen? I’m not a lawyer, so somebody explain it to me.

But no one could. Not to this day."

Capital Punishment is a powerful tool. Few governments are responsible enough to have such power.

 

[Aeroil]

Stop thinking so much and start doing more. Then think about what you do, not just about what you've read or heard.

Not all of us have that option
Bah, the hunting around I've done for local groups with 0 results. Infuriating! Except that one that won't let me in

 

[MorfeuV]

Hahaha!

You see, I dated a female just like you. Craving for submission, but simply too alpha to submit to anyone but God. Constantly complaining about having to lower yourself to make yourself more easily dominated by the incapable. The only one fit to Dominate you is an apparition created by your own imagination.

Hahaha!

If God was a woman I'd challenge her.

Yeah, I do want it (to be dominated) but girls my age are boring, and not agressive enough.

I am bored with them.

I've always liked older women (10 - 15 years older than me).

Kind of like a ripe fruit.

 

[RJMasters]

No. Did you even read my posts? I changed my stance on how it exists.

Morality exists subjectively becuase it is not absolute.

Your absolutely unbelievable.

It seems to me that you just want to be "right".

That's is not why I debate.

So far I've gotten only a shit load of circular reasoning & logical fallicies from you, so there really is no sense in debating with you.

If you still want to be "right", I'll still be here to show you that you can never be "right" ... you'll just be sharing your opinion with me.

If you are such a sojourner of knowledge, let me help you on your path a bit.

One first seeks to learn "knowledge", and then it is hope that one comes to an "understanding" of that knowledge. Here is where most people crap out and think they are done, when actually there is yet one more step in the process my young padawon....wisdom in knowing and understanding how that knowledge can be useful and when to apply it.

This discussion was about a little girl who was kidnap and used as a sex slave and people voiced their simple opinions about how wrong or awlful it was.

You come riding in and want to start some philisophical debate about non-absolutes and tell people they are wrong in their opinions to state this is wrong. It was immature, lacked insight or understanding, totally irrelavent to the topic at hand, and was nothing more than a selfish agenda on your part to stir up shit.

Here's the point: It has nothing to do with me wanting to be right, as truly I could care less. I just felt like playing with you for being so thoughtless and reckless in what you were doing.

If you want to debate philosophical truths, then start a thread dedicated to such a pursuit and quit being a cheese-dick. Be honest in your intentions as to what it is you want to do and see if others truly want to engage in this type of discussion. If they don't join you...well then there you have it.

Sooner or later you are going to learn there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path, Neo.

 

[davro]

It’s necessary for survival, isn’t it, to bond with one’s abductor…such a tenuous lifeline. I wonder how the rest of her life will play out…how she will recover her own sense of self as a separate and whole being, independent of a "provider". Wow, what will the psychological ramifications be from this experience?

I`d recommend "I choose to live" by Sabine Dardenne,one of Belgian paedophile Mark Dutroux`s victims.The most impressive thing about the book,the fact it was even written proves how tough the lady is,is the way that she`s now leading a perfectly ordinary life.
I`m not sure how this thread turned into a debate about the pros and cons of the American legal system as Austria isn`t in America,it`s in Europe.Despite what many Americans think America isn`t the world,it`s just a very big,largely unpopular,part of it.Personally I`d sub-contract out the justice systems of the entire Western world to China,let the sick fucks of our society try to give their sob stories to people who have the apparently bizarre idea of ridding society of people who are a danger to the innocent.Let them launch their appeals via a Ouija board.

 

[Aeroil]

Dreaded double-post X_X

 

[Aeroil]

In all fairness, RJ, this thread is quite stupid in the first place. A crime comes up that somewhat looks like BDSM and we all have to just sit here and say "that it so wrong!!! We have to kill pedophiles!", what an accomplishment. Adding onto the fact that the girl doesn't want to discuss it, having a thread like this is highly pointless, at least I got to read a crazy ass semantics debate, I love those, they're entertaining. ^_^

MorfeuV may have disrupted the thread needlessly, but he was spilling a glass with two drops of water in it.

 

[RJMasters]

In all fairness, RJ, this thread is quite stupid in the first place. A crime comes up that somewhat looks like BDSM and we all have to just sit here and say "that it so wrong!!! We have to kill pedophiles!", what an accomplishment. Adding onto the fact that the girl doesn't want to discuss it, having a thread like this is highly pointless, at least I got to read a crazy ass semantics debate, I love those, they're entertaining. ^_^

MorfeuV may have disrupted the thread needlessly, but he was spilling a glass with two drops of water in it.

Actually Aeroil it does serve a purpose. Even though it may be redundant, it still offers a chance for many to voice an opinion about how wrong it is. Why is that so important? Because many who look at the D/s BDSM community lump it in with what this guy did. This is an opportunity to voice our opinion on the matter and say we are just as outrage over what has happened here and that in no way do we condone or support this kind of shit.

You may be right that semantic debates are highly entertaining, in a way its like watching pro wrestling...alot of action that isn't real.

 

[LadyAria]

You see, I dated a female just like you. Craving for submission, but simply too alpha to submit to anyone but God. Constantly complaining about having to lower yourself to make yourself more easily dominated by the incapable. The only one fit to Dominate you is an apparition created by your own imagination.

Absolute platinum quote.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I'd rather that the $30,000.00 or so per year it takes to incarcerate a sexual predator be used to improve the inadequate American educational system. If there was a reasonable possibility that such a creep could be rehabilitated, then I'd say lock him up and subject him to 10 years of behavior modification. However, everything I've read on the subject has indicated that child molesters are forever broken.

I do agree with you in principle Hooper but I don't believe any judicial system is accurate enough to be given the power to kill. If it were possible never to get it wrong, I would back you wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, it isn't.

I also do not think anybody has the right to completely write off another person and decide that they can never change or be rehabilitated. I think that we owe it to the same children who need a decent education system at least to try. The fact that many abusers were themselves abused in childhood speaks volumes to me. It in no way excuses their actions but to me it compounds the fact that they need professional help, understanding and resolution in order not to re-offend. Some sexual predators are reformed, admittedly not the majority.

I'd still chemically castrate them though. I wouldn't want to take chances.

I'm SO not getting into the semantics debate, can't be arsed

 

[Aeroil]

Actually Aeroil it does serve a purpose. Even though it may be redundant, it still offers a chance for many to voice an opinion about how wrong it is. Why is that so important? Because many who look at the D/s BDSM community lump it in with what this guy did. This is an opportunity to voice our opinion on the matter and say we are just as outrage over what has happened here and that in no way do we condone or support this kind of shit.

You may be right that semantic debates are highly entertaining, in a way its like watching pro wrestling...alot of action that isn't real.

Everyone *inside* the BDSM community already knows there's a difference between what we do and what someone like this abductor has done, and people *outside* the BDSM community don't browse around our forums every time there's an incident like this to read our opinions on it dude, and by even comparing ourselves to him, we'd be doing as much damage as harm to outsiders looking in IMO.

 

[Netzach]

In all fairness, RJ, this thread is quite stupid in the first place. A crime comes up that somewhat looks like BDSM and we all have to just sit here and say "that it so wrong!!! We have to kill pedophiles!", what an accomplishment. Adding onto the fact that the girl doesn't want to discuss it, having a thread like this is highly pointless, at least I got to read a crazy ass semantics debate, I love those, they're entertaining. ^_^

MorfeuV may have disrupted the thread needlessly, but he was spilling a glass with two drops of water in it.

Could so not agree more. Kudos.

 

[Aeroil]

Could so not agree more. Kudos.

You're not trying hard enough, you could totally agree more, you could have accidentally posted the exact same thing I said verbatim at the same moment. *then* you could not agree more.

haa ^_^

.......... Don't mind me.

 

[Marquis]

She has described physical punishment for various wrongdoings, but the newspaper did not elaborate on that. However, certainly it is not the case that the only legitimate term for slavery or bondage is by that of physical interaction only. Surely the mental and emotional bondage on the part of her abductor is just as sadistic.

Oh, and thanks for leaving the philosophical symantics out of this one, Marq.

I have no idea what the bolded text means.

As far as sadism goes, the dictionary definitions of sadism create some difficulty in it's use. Let us limit the term sadistic to it's most commonly understood denotation, receiving pleasure by causing pain.

In this case, I do not see this guy as someone who enjoyed causing his victim pain. He probably would've much preferred it if she was willing to go along with everything he wanted on her own.

How do I infer this?

Well part of it is intuition based on the few details given, but many important details are omitted so I may be wrong. There is also the fact that the vast majority of pedophiles are not sadistic, desiring and preferring to believe they have earned the genuine love of their victims.

Sorry to bring in semantics, but there's only so far you can go without it when arguing about a word.