historical roles vs female submission

[where]

ahhh it's clear I'm not only a crap housewife but a lousy sub as well.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Dear god, you make it sound exhausting.



Exhausting or not, whatever works for you is obviously fine.

Yeah, I don't know if I want to feel like dealing with me is the psychosexual equivalent of summitting K2 without oxygen.

I just like a leetle bit of fight now and then.

 

[Netzach]

Ok, I'm not buying the gifting part of it, because that really doesn't work for me, but I think a *lot* of people are thrown when their sexual desires trump their highly vaunted and developed sense of ego and what we think and have been taught our self esteem must consist of. I can grok that without taking it personally.

It's not like everyone's not getting the same messages about what kind of person it makes you to let someone walk all over your - figuratively and even literally! It's not like following impulse is that much more *comfortable* for other people than it is for me, even if it makes them hard or wet, and I've always kept that in mind.

And it's worse for guys, IMO. I mean really, if a few hardline feminists and what they think of you is throwing your for a loop as a woman, try the opinion of - everyone.

 

[FloggingMolly]

ahhh it's clear I'm not only a crap housewife but a lousy sub as well.

That wasn't at all how this thread was intended, I didn't mean to make anyone feel bad *hugs*

And this thread is fascinating, but way above my intellectual level, so I have nothing wonderful and insightful to add.

I would say that for me, alot of the things from the list, I do. I love him to come home to a calm, tdy house, dinner on the way, 40 mins before he's due home, always make sure 'm made-up and ready. However, I currently dont have a job, or kids, so I have the time

 

[IsabellaKing]

dinner on the way,

Is that cos you rang Pizza Hut?

(You can count on me to lower the intellectual level of any thread)

 

[FloggingMolly]

hehehe no, I'm far too cheap for takeaway!

 

[Yesspleasse]

That's what feminism is fighting for.

Er, no, actually, feminism's agenda is biased in favour of only redressing inequalities which favour men, not inequalities which favour women. As such, it's not egalitarian.

For example, here, men have to work 5 years longer to get a pension from the State, yet they also live (approx 5 years) shorter lives, so retirement is a double whammy for men. Suicide rates are generally 3 to 4 times higher for men. Family Law/custody/alimony generally favours women. Men traditionally do the riskiest jobs, in terms of health/life risks and unemployment risks. I could go on. The point is not that these issues are any more or any less valid than any others, but that feminism doesn't generally address them. Which is fine. Women need an independent advocacy in a historically patriarchal world. But it is about equality 'for women' :]

 

[Netzach]

Er, no, actually, feminism's agenda is biased in favour of only redressing inequalities which favour men, not inequalities which favour women. As such, it's not egalitarian.

For example, here, men have to work 5 years longer to get a pension from the State, yet they also live (approx 5 years) shorter lives, so retirement is a double whammy for men. Suicide rates are generally 3 to 4 times higher for men. Family Law/custody/alimony generally favours women. Men traditionally do the riskiest jobs, in terms of health/life risks and unemployment risks. I could go on. The point is not that these issues are any more or any less valid than any others, but that feminism doesn't generally address them. Which is fine. Women need an independent advocacy in a historically patriarchal world. But it is about equality 'for women' :]

Actually in the seventies a lot of feminists went into the trades and were pushing to get into the trades. I'm not sure what happened or how the movement got as hijacked as it did by middle classes, but the initial arguments were that we wanted to get greasy and endangered too.

The fact that the majority of homeless Iraq vets are single mothers might be on your list somewhere too.
When women do endangering work it usually doesn't show up. Things like illegal sweatshops in NYC or sex work which has a number of risks associated with it - these are things women end up doing and the metrics don't look for it. The question shouldn't be "how many women die on commercial fishing boats" but what's the equivalent work for women as commercial fishing, or is death over 30 years of work-induced illness versus sudden accidental death worth considering as related to work?

 

[Yesspleasse]

Actually in the seventies a lot of feminists went into the trades and were pushing to get into the trades. I'm not sure what happened or how the movement got as hijacked as it did by middle classes, but the initial arguments were that we wanted to get greasy and endangered too.

The fact that the majority of homeless Iraq vets are single mothers might be on your list somewhere too.
When women do endangering work it usually doesn't show up. Things like illegal sweatshops in NYC or sex work which has a number of risks associated with it - these are things women end up doing and the metrics don't look for it.

I probably wouldn't disagree with you. I'm in favour of equality for women. Nor am I trading scores. I just think feminism is....well, inherently biased, not egalitarian. Some feminists that I have discussed this with would say that's fine, that men can and should start mens' groups to address their particular issues, which I agree is perhaps the pragmatic way these things go (after all, there aren't many 'egalitarian movements' for women to join) but I think it's somewhat of a pity, because it's divisive, and will always turn off lots of men who are otherwize egalitarian. Just my personal view. :]

 

[Netzach]

I probably wouldn't disagree with you. I'm in favour of equality for women. Nor am I trading scores. I just think feminism is....well, inherently biased, not egalitarian. Some feminists that I have discussed this with would say that's fine, that men can and should start mens' groups to address their particular issues, which I agree is perhaps the pragmatic way these things go (after all, there aren't many egalitarian clubs and societies for women to join) but I think it's somewhat of a pity, because it's divisive, and will always turn off lots of men who are otherwize egalitarian. Just my personal view. :]

I think that Feminism, as an official movement has done a bad job of living up to its potential for showing that sexism fucks over men and women alike - that men are limited in potential by the things they've been taught about men and women. It doesn't mean everyone has to be an against the grain caricature of the opposite sex, but there's a lot to be said for having options on the table. Men should have a reasonable place at the feminist table to have these kinds of conversations - but conversations over family court that I've seen have mostly been completely sexist and vicious. I've seen men get fucked in these courts, but I've seen women get fucked in them too - and children most of all. I think it would be great to talk about making work more safe and more fair, but it usually consists of how women don't want to do risky work with no recognition of the risks in work that women do.

I think it would be great to deal with how shitty the patriarchy is to boys without it devolving into some rant about the feminization of american boys and all he needs as a boot up the ass like I got!

I'm kind of into questions of labor and economics more than gender necessarily. I feel more in common with working class men who *get* that they're being screwed at work than with middle class women usually. So the question of work safety and recognition of work is a huge one for me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm of the tough noogies school of feminism. Being asked to share privilege always divisive to the privileged.

 

[00Syd]

There is no one feminist "fight."

 

[Yesspleasse]

I think that Feminism, as an official movement has done a bad job of living up to its potential for showing that sexism fucks over men and women alike - that men are limited in potential by the things they've been taught about men and women. It doesn't mean everyone has to be an against the grain caricature of the opposite sex, but there's a lot to be said for having options on the table. Men should have a reasonable place at the feminist table to have these kinds of conversations - but conversations over family court that I've seen have mostly been completely sexist and vicious. I've seen men get fucked in these courts, but I've seen women get fucked in them too - and children most of all.

I'm kind of into questions of labor and economics more than gender necessarily. I feel more in common with working class men who *get* that they're being screwed at work than with middle class women usually. So the question of work safety and recognition of work is a huge one for me.

Well, of course I think you're very right. These things are arguably more about class than about gender, when you get right down to it. That's not to say that there isn't at least a general truth that historically (and currently in many countries where feminism has not achieved much, yet) there aren't more ways in which society benifits men.

 

[Yesspleasse]

I'm of the tough noogies school of feminism. Being asked to share privilege always divisive to the privileged.

Privileged = male, I take it?

Not in my family. Or in its vicinity.

 

[Netzach]

I'm of the tough noogies school of feminism. Being asked to share privilege always divisive to the privileged.

I'm kind of tired of retreating to the irrelevant womyn's hut of academia, again and again and again.

 

[Netzach]

Privileged = male, I take it?

Not in my family. Or in its vicinity.

Put on a minidress and go out at night and you might have some new insights.

 

[Yesspleasse]

Put on a minidress and go out at night and you might have some new insights.

Take my mother. Housewife, child rearer, hard worker. Her father was made to fight at the Somme. He survived, but never recovered psychologically. Her husband, my Dad, worked on the farm, outside in all weathers, dirty sometimes dangerous work, 365 days a year (can't remember him taking a holiday). When the farm went bust, he bore, not very well, the sole weight of being a failed breadwinner. This scenario is not untypical where I was brought up.

Which gender was privileged?

I take your point about the minidress.

 

[Netzach]

Take my mother. Housewife, child rearer, hard worker. Her father was made to fight at the Somme. He survived, but never recovered psychologically. Her husband, my Dad, worked on the farm, outside in all weathers, dirty sometimes dangerous work, 365 days a year (can't remember him taking a holiday). When the farm went bust, he bore, not very well, the sole weight of being a failed breadwinner. This scenario is not untypical where I was brought up.

Which gender was privileged?

Do you think any of this adversely affected your mother or was she eating bon bons the whole time? My stepdad was a PTSD vietnam vet, it wasn't only his problem.

 

[Yesspleasse]

Do you think any of this adversely affected your mother or was she eating bon bons the whole time?

Sure, but that's not really an answer to the question though.

 

[Netzach]

Sure, but that's not really an answer to the question though.

I think it's apples-oranges. I don't think that negates what your dad went through.

 

[Yesspleasse]

I think it's apples-oranges. I don't think that negates what your dad went through.

I realise that. I don't think I find much to disagree with you about.

Someone else mentioned 'the 'p' word (privilege). I have found that in some cases (not yours and not necessarily the other posters) this equates to 'male', that's all.

I have dallied with the idea of becoming a feminist, but there are aspects to it I can't subscribe to.

 

[Netzach]

I realise that. I don't think I find much to disagree with you about.

Someone else mentioned 'the 'p' word (privilege). I have found that in some cases (not necessarily yours or the other posters) this equates to 'male', that's all.

There are privileges attached to being male. Automatic assumptions about you that work to your advantage. Cheaper dry cleaning (ha!)

Not every male is walking around in a cloud where adversity doesn't ever touch him at the top of the social ladder but that's not what a privileged position always means, it's absurd to say these privileges don't exist. When one has a privilege it's usually impossible to imagine not having it.

 

[Yesspleasse]

There are privileges attached to being male. Automatic assumptions about you that work to your advantage. Cheaper dry cleaning (ha!)

Not every male is walking around in a cloud where adversity doesn't ever touch him, but it's absurd to say these privileges don't exist. When one has a privilege it's usually impossible to imagine not having it.

I wouldn't say that male privilege doesn't exist. And I subscribe to the idea that privilege is often invisible to the privileged. I try as best I can to be aware of this.

I am saying that it cuts both ways, especially in modern, 'Western' democracies.

For example, when investigating a high profile feminist site here in the UK, I noticed that male feminists were welcome, so long as they 'left their male privilege at the door'. As a precondition, I wasn't all that enticed.

 

[Netzach]

There's no feminist baptism, Naomi Wolf is not the pope of feminism, and basically it boils down to "this is how I'd like my sister or daughter to feel in the world, and everyone should be able to have that."

 

[Netzach]

I wouldn't say that male privilege doesn't exist. And I subscribe to the idea that privilege is often invisible to the privileged. I try as best I can to be aware of this.

I am saying that it cuts both ways, especially in modern, 'Western' democracies.

For example, when investigating a high profile feminist site here in the UK, I noticed that male feminists were welcome, so long as they 'left their male privilege at the door'. As a precondition, I wasn't all that enticed.

That's absurd. It's not possible. It allows every man at that conference to feel like his work is over, and every one thinking about it like they must be in a state of enlightenment perfection to be there.