How do justify incest ?

[EmpressJosephine]

While there are a lot stories about incest very few answers the why question.

It's simple, sex is an expression of love.


What love is deeper than that of family?

I recommend the novel Into the Forest by Jean Hegland. It has a very sweet incest scene between two sisters. (I have not seen the film, so I'm not sure if they included it in that.)

Or, while not as well written, examine the motivations of my characters in Mother of the Groom or Because Big Sister Says So!.

 

[jehoram]

I don't even know why that's a category. It's illegal here. I read one out of curiosity and nearly vomited. And the fact that so many of those stories have hot votes, is very disturbing.

It's illegal where you are? I know that incestuous marriage is illegal in most places, but I can't think of any place in the USA, Canada, or western Europe where consenting adults can't get it on, even when they're related. What's illegal, of course, is sex with minors, but it doesn't matter whether the minors are related to you or not.

As for your queasiness with the subject, I'd just say that you're certainly entitled to your reaction. There are a lot of reasons for it, including the fact that a person might have been raped by a relative, or that your religious upbringing has made the idea repellent to you.

But while it may be an occasional subject for fantasy for me in the abstract, I've never had sexual designs on any of my relatives. And I suspect that's true of most of the readers. For those who want to extend that fantasy into their real lives (and there are a few of them on lit), more power to them. I'll stay out of their bedroom.

 

[jaF0]

I can't think of any place in the USA, Canada, or western Europe where consenting adults can't get it on, even when they're related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest_in_the_United_States


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest#Canada

 

[Hypoxia]

Do not announce that you're fucking your mother and you will likely not be bothered.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't even know why that's a category. It's illegal here. I read one out of curiosity and nearly vomited. And the fact that so many of those stories have hot votes, is very disturbing.

I've never understood this thinking, and how often it pops up in the forums at this site.

Murder is illegal. Yet, a vast quantity of literature, TV, movies, video games, etc. is devoted to stories about murder and mayhem. Murder is endlessly fascinating. No one bats an eye at the fact that millions and millions of people enjoy stories about crime, and murder in particular. No one contends that because people like to read and watch stories about murder it means they secretly want to commit murder.

But enter the realm of sex, and people take leave of their senses and make judgments that have no basis in fact. There is no reason to believe that the vast majority of people who read incest stories actually harbor a desire to commit it. Some may. I don't. Nor is there any reason to believe it has a connection to pedophilia. The most popular category of I/T stories here is mom/son, and the biggest audience for it is adult men who like stories about getting it on with mom. That's about as far from pedophilia as you can get.

It's fiction. Fantasy. Nothing more. The same is true of all other categories of stories here.

 

[jaF0]

^^^ Hasn't the whole Oedipus thing been around pretty much since the beginning of literature?

 

[jehoram]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest_in_the_United_States


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest#Canada

I'll be damned. You're right. It's just that one never hears about anybody being actually prosecuted under these laws, except in cases of minors being involved.

In this respect, I'm guessing that it's kind of like all those laws on the books that prohibit anal sex. They aren't prosecuted mainly because the DAs know that it will probably end up going to the Supreme Court and being overturned, just like the laws against homosexual relations and inter-racial marriages were overturned.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I'll be damned. You're right. It's just that one never hears about anybody being actually prosecuted under these laws, except in cases of minors being involved.

In this respect, I'm guessing that it's kind of like all those laws on the books that prohibit anal sex. They aren't prosecuted mainly because the DAs know that it will probably end up going to the Supreme Court and being overturned, just like the laws against homosexual relations and inter-racial marriages were overturned.

And as long as you do it in the privacy of your own bedroom and neither party complains, how would the authorities know? At least until there is a camera in every room that big brother is watching.

 

[Hypoxia]

And as long as you do it in the privacy of your own bedroom and neither party complains, how would the authorities know? At least until there is a camera in every room that big brother is watching.

You mean like every webcam? Monitored by AI's seeking any illicit activity or speech? AI's developed by Google for LEO's? Oh no, that can't happen here!

Or maybe rogue LEO's will merely digitally insert your face into illicit imagery.

We're about at the point where any image or sound can be fake. No evidence can be trusted. Certainly no testimony can be trusted. That opinion got me excused from jury duty a few months ago.

But you can still get away with most sexual activity as long as you 1) keep the curtains closed and 2) don't go bragging down at the tavern about how you done did Ma and Sis till they squealed like happy piglets.
_____

Legality: Laws about what incest is vary widely. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, and first-cousin marriages are common or expected in some places. Tenth-cousin and step-family marriages are banned elsewhere even though no DNA is shared. Sibling marriage was required in some royal dynasties; I set one story arc in such a society.

One can compare the legality of family sex (incest) and homicide, which isn't necessarily murder. Judge Roy Bean famously ruled, in the case of a cowboy shooting a Latino, that he could find no Texas law against killing Mexicans. How much USA Western literature has no problem with dead Indians?

Incest and murder are taboo because they are so attractive.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

You mean like every webcam? Monitored by AI's seeking any illicit activity or speech? AI's developed by Google for LEO's? Oh no, that can't happen here!

Or maybe rogue LEO's will merely digitally insert your face into illicit imagery.

We're about at the point where any image or sound can be fake. No evidence can be trusted. Certainly no testimony can be trusted. That opinion got me excused from jury duty a few months ago.

But you can still get away with most sexual activity as long as you 1) keep the curtains closed and 2) don't go bragging down at the tavern about how you done did Ma and Sis till they squealed like happy piglets.
_____

Legality: Laws about what incest is vary widely. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, and first-cousin marriages are common or expected in some places. Tenth-cousin and step-family marriages are banned elsewhere even though no DNA is shared. Sibling marriage was required in some royal dynasties; I set one story arc in such a society.

One can compare the legality of family sex (incest) and homicide, which isn't necessarily murder. Judge Roy Bean famously ruled, in the case of a cowboy shooting a Latino, that he could find no Texas law against killing Mexicans. How much USA Western literature has no problem with dead Indians?

Incest and murder are taboo because they are so attractive.

Did you read the links posted by JaF0? It's pretty clear, blood relatives are off limits in every state in the union. Even step and adopted parents and siblings are off limit all though there is no blood shared.

As for web cams, unless your using it to record what you are doing with the relative, unplug the damn thing.

As for my cam on my laptop. The thing is closed...all time...I use and external keyboard, mouse and monitor. The cam has also been uninstalled. So Good Luck NSA.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'll be damned. You're right. It's just that one never hears about anybody being actually prosecuted under these laws, except in cases of minors being involved.

In this respect, I'm guessing that it's kind of like all those laws on the books that prohibit anal sex. They aren't prosecuted mainly because the DAs know that it will probably end up going to the Supreme Court and being overturned, just like the laws against homosexual relations and inter-racial marriages were overturned.

I've wondered whether, if close-relative incest were legal in most states, we would see an actual mom-son, sister-brother, etc. webcam or website. It probably would be hugely successful. But, while these cases are seldom prosecuted, in today's legal environment putting one's incest out on the web probably would be going too far in tempting authorities to intervene and prosecute.

It's a good story idea, though. I've thought about writing a story along those lines.

 

[Hypoxia]

Did you read the links posted by JaF0? It's pretty clear, blood relatives are off limits in every state in the union. Even step and adopted parents and siblings are off limit all though there is no blood shared.

I see some states banning cousin sex and marriage, and others not. Some states ban PIV (penis in vagina) intercourse but not other incestuous sex acts.

I see Ohio not banning sibling sex, but instead sex with a "natural or adoptive parent, step-parent, guardian, custodian, or person in loco parentis of the other person". I see Rhode Island only banning marriage; "Consensual incest between people 16 years old or more is not a criminal offense." Guam bans "knowing marriage or cohabitation" but does a quick fuck count? Louisiana bans incestuous "marriage (unless married legally in another state)" -- like Ohio.

And other parts of the world have other laws and customs.

 

[Nezhul]

eeeh... how the thread derailed by one hateful comment.

My two cents are:
It's important to distinguish between fiction and reality. In fiction we often explore things that we do not endorse or condone in real life.

For example, everyone shuld know "Saw" movies? Well, they are quite popular, but that doesn't mean that anyone in the audience would like to take a place of ANY of the characters, be they victim or killer.
Watching a Hollywood action movie similarly doesn't make you inclined to acts of mass murder and terrorism (which a lof of the "heroics" in those movies are).

In fiction, there are genres that deal with socially-unacceptable behavior. Similarly, erotic fiction should be treated the same. It doesn't matter that in real life incest is in 99% cases a horrible thing. In fiction, it's just another thrill item.

There's a lot of things in fiction, both mainstream and erotic that may disturb you or turn you off. For example, I'm turned off by "Saw" movies, and I dislike criminal drama and such. That doesn't mean I hate those genres and want to see them gone.
I just understand that it's not for me.

Similarly, if incest erotic isn't for you - it's all good. Just don't read it. No need to attack people who enjoy it or their tastes, and you should DEFINITELY not put a parallel between their tastes in fiction and their predispositions in real life.

 

[Hypoxia]

...if incest erotic isn't for you - it's all good. Just don't read it. No need to attack people who enjoy it or their tastes, and you should DEFINITELY not put a parallel between their tastes in fiction and their predispositions in real life.

I would be wary around an habitual consumer of snuff films.

Some readers apparently find it difficult to distinguish fiction from fact and thus believe what they read and react as if we authors are reporters and promoters. Maybe some authors DO push some lifestyle. I don't see stories promoting FUCK YOUR MOTHER-BROTHER-FATHER-SISTER NOW. Maybe I missed those.

I do note readers asking for more mother-butt-fucking and Oh Daddy! scenes. I posted a rewrite for a reader whining that cousins+aunt weren't incesty enough -- they had to be closer. Writing multiracial siblings+mom incest was a nice puzzle.

Whatever my motives for writing incest fiction, promotion ain't one. Don't fuck your family, folks. Don't murder or bankrupt them, either. Please.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Also, I don't justify what I write about, nor do I condone the acts I describe in a fictional story. I sure as hell have never participated in any sexual act with a relative. Blood or married into the family.

Don't fuck your mother, sister, cousin, aunt, grandmother, etc.

Nor do I read others I/T stories. In fact I don't even read mine once they are posted.

 

[Hypoxia]

Couple cousins (selected):

* Mark Antony and his first cousin, Antonia Hybrida Minor
* Johann Sebastian Bach and his second cousin, Maria Barbara Bach
* Josiah Bartlett, second signer of the United States Declaration of Independence, and his first cousin, Mary Bartlett
* Wernher von Braun and his first cousin, Maria Luise von Quistorp
* Charles Bulfinch and his first cousin, Hannah Apthorp
* John C. Calhoun, seventh Vice President of the United States, and his first cousin once removed, Floride Calhoun
* Charles Darwin and his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood. Their respective siblings Caroline Darwin and Josiah Wedgwood III also married.
* Albert Einstein and his first cousin (through his mother) and second cousin (through his father), Elsa Löwenthal née Einstein

* Carlo Gambino, a mob boss, and his first cousin, Catherine Castellano
* Buddha Gautama and first cousin Yaśodhara
* André Gide, Nobel Prize-winning French author, and his cousin Madeleine Rondeaux
* Rudy Giuliani, mayor of New York, 1994–2001, and his second cousin, Regina Peruggi
* Edvard Grieg, Norwegian composer, and his first cousin, Nina Hagerup
* Saddam Hussein and his first cousin Sajida Talfah
* (biblical) Isaac was married to his first cousin once removed, Rebecca
* (biblical) Jacob was married to two of his first cousins, sisters Leah and Rachel
* Jesse James and his first cousin, Zerelda "Zee" Mimms
* David Lean, British film director, and his first cousin, Isabel Lean
* Jerry Lee Lewis, rock and roll musician, and his first cousin once removed, Myra Gale Brown

* John A. Macdonald, first prime minister of Canada, and his first cousin, Isabella Clark
* Thomas Malthus, British academic, and his first cousin once removed, Harriet Eckersall
* Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, and his second cousin Luo Yixiu
* Francis Marion, American revolutionary leader also called the "Swamp Fox," and his first cousin, Mary Esther Videau
* Abraham Maslow, father of humanistic psychology, and his first cousin, Bertha Goodman
* Darius Milhaud, French composer, and his first cousin Madeleine Milhaud
* Christopher Robin Milne, son of author A. A. Milne who was the model for the character Christopher Robin of the Winnie-the-Pooh books, and his first cousin Lesley Sélincourt
* Samuel Eliot Morison, historian, and his first cousin once removed, Agnes Priscilla Randolph Barton
* Samuel F. B. Morse, inventor of the Morse code, and his first cousin once removed, Sarah Elizabeth Griswold
* Muhammad, Islamic prophet and his first cousin, Zaynab bint Jahsh

* Edgar Allan Poe and his first cousin, Virginia Clemm
* Sergei Rachmaninoff, composer, and his cousin, Natalia Satina
* Satyajit Ray, Indian film-maker, and his first cousin, Bijoya Ray
* Igor Stravinsky, composer, and his first cousin, Katerina Nossenko
* Mario Vargas Llosa, Peruvian writer and 2010 Nobel Prize laureate, and his first cousin Patricia Llosa
* Martin Van Buren, US president, and his first cousin once removed, Hannah Hoes
* Dennis Wilson (Beach Boys) and his first cousin once removed, Shawn Marie Love

Many of these would be illegal in many USA states.

 

[Nezhul]

I would be wary around an habitual consumer of snuff films. Some readers apparently find it difficult to distinguish fiction from fact and thus believe what they read and react as if we authors are reporters and promoters.

Well, among everything else I write extreme body modification and amputation porn.
But you know what's the interesting thing? I imagine myself in the place of a victim, being put into inescapable situations and permanently reduced to little less than a living sextoy.
And I know that 99% of my readers are the same. They enjoy the thrill of helplessness and the description of inescapable sexual horrors that stimulate their fantasy.

In reality? I do not wish ANYONE to go through things like that. Even consentually. So yeah, I don't promote it, but I do think that it's totally fine to enjoy it as a fantasy.

I'm sure there are authors who enjoy the perspective of the rapist in such scenarios. But I'm also sure that there are people who watch "Saw" and internally want to become witness to similar things in reality.

In fact, I think that whatever content you make - there will be small portion of reaers who get it the wrong way or take it too far. After all, if 100 thousand people reads your stuff - statistically, some of them will be sociopaths, and some will be from completely different cultural settings than yours.
This, however, doesn't mean that everyone should stop writing anything harder than Teletubbies.

I do note readers asking for more mother-butt-fucking and Oh Daddy! scenes. I posted a rewrite for a reader whining that cousins+aunt weren't incesty enough -- they had to be closer. Writing multiracial siblings+mom incest was a nice puzzle.

The thing is that the more controvercial the fiction - the harder it is to get ahold of something good in that genre. Those readers are just starved for content that really turns them on, that's why they ask for more and harder stuff. I think.

 

[MissxVenomxPoison91]

Father/Son/Grandson incest chapter

I haven't written it yet but I am planning on writing a mostly father/son incest rough blowjob on my Criminal Case fanfiction

Father: Alden (canon), 59, bailed himself out of jail after he killed a reporter. Loves fucking his 23 almost 24 year old wife Molly (OC) and loves fucking his limousine driver (OC)as well as a cop on his payroll (self insert)

Son: Paul (canon), 39, widower (wife killed by teenage son) who is in love with Molly and often has as much sex with her as Alden does.

Grandson: Scott (canon), 17. Bailed out of jail by Alden after the boy beat his greedy stepmother (canon) to death with baseball bat.

I have a few ideas on the chapter so far:

*Alden gently gives Paul head but intentionally gives him blue balls
*Alden roughly deepthroats Paul to dominate him and spanks him for gagging as the younger Greene chokes on the patriarch's cock
*Scott walks in to give his father head

Anyone else have any ideas?

EDIT: I don't condone incest IRL, this chapter is purely smut.

 

[Jada59]

"Why" for any sort of fetish or kink is generally pretty simple. Something occurred, perhaps in our formative years. We saw something, even if only a picture of something, or heard something or smelled something and at the same time, we were aroused. Now our arousal may have had nothing to do with the "thing". But because of the way our brains are wired, our brains make that connection.

Now me? I have no interest in incest whatever. But I do recall a horrible incident with a cousin. I can be a fighter and a screamer if I need to be. And I needed to be. Fast forward to years later and that same person was arrested repeatedly for breaking the law in many ways, including crimes against women. I don't want to give any more details than that. But... It was enough for me to shudder when I even contemplate anything along the lines of doing stuff with relatives.

So I guess the opposite can be true too. Things can occur in our lives that cause us to be repulsed as well as turned on.

 

[Nezhul]

"Why" for any sort of fetish or kink is generally pretty simple. Something occurred, perhaps in our formative years. We saw something, even if only a picture of something, or heard something or smelled something and at the same time, we were aroused. Now our arousal may have had nothing to do with the "thing". But because of the way our brains are wired, our brains make that connection.

So true. I hope this doesn't count as stepping over pedo line, but I remember that in kindergarten I had dreams and fantasies about being restrained. They were exciting. I didn't know what sexual arousal was back then, not even CLOSE! But it was exciting. And here I'm now, a quarter of a decade down the line, and I write stories about bondage, submission, helplessness and permanent encasement

 

[Hypoxia]

"Why" for any sort of fetish or kink is generally pretty simple. Something occurred, perhaps in our formative years. We saw something, even if only a picture of something, or heard something or smelled something and at the same time, we were aroused. Now our arousal may have had nothing to do with the "thing". But because of the way our brains are wired, our brains make that connection.

From Wikipedia: sexual fetishism:

Sexual fetishism or erotic fetishism is a sexual fixation on a nonliving object or nongenital body part.[1] ...

Cause

Fetishism usually becomes evident during puberty, and may develop prior to that.[1] No single cause for fetishism has been conclusively established.[8]

Some explanations invoke classical conditioning. In several experiments, men have been conditioned to show arousal to stimuli like boots, geometric shapes or penny jars by pairing these cues with conventional erotica.[9] According to John Bancroft, conditioning alone cannot explain fetishism, because it does not result in fetishism for most people. He suggests that conditioning combines with some other factor, such as an abnormality in the sexual learning process.[8]

Theories of sexual imprinting propose that humans learn to recognize sexually desirable features and activities during childhood. Fetishism could result when a child is imprinted with an overly narrow or "incorrect" concept of a sex object.[10] Imprinting seems to occur during the child's earliest experiences with arousal and desire, and is based on "an egocentric evaluation of salient reward- or pleasure-related characteristics that differ from one individual to another."[11]

Neurological differences may play a role in some cases. Vilayanur S. Ramachandran observed that the region processing sensory input from the feet lies immediately next to the region processing genital stimulation, and suggested an accidental link between these regions could explain the prevalence of foot fetishism.[12] In one unusual case, an anterior temporal lobectomy relieved an epileptic man's fetish for safety pins.[13][14]

... The sensory regions for the feet and genitals lie next to each other...

Various explanations have been put forth for the rarity of female fetishists. Most fetishes are visual in nature, and males are thought to be more sexually sensitive to visual stimuli.[15] Roy Baumeister suggests that male sexuality is unchangeable, except for a brief period in childhood during which fetishism could become established, while female sexuality is fluid throughout life.[16]​

By definition, incest is not a fetish: "a sexual fixation on a nonliving object or nongenital body part." IRL incest is driven not by youthful imprinting but by power asymmetry. A stronger relative (usually male) exploits a readily available weaker relative as a sexual target. An authority figure rapes a child. This is all too common but is NEVER justifiable.

LIT thrives on fake incest and other fantasy pr0n. Werewolves and centaurs only mask bestiality. Mind Control and Erotic Horror tales are total fantasies. Turning Mom into a slut is a fantasy. Enjoying being raped is a fantasy. This is fucking LIT fantasyland, folks, filled with improbable anatomies and motives.

It's fiction.

 

[Jada59]

From Wikipedia: sexual fetishism:

Sexual fetishism or erotic fetishism is a sexual fixation on a nonliving object or nongenital body part.[1] ...

Cause

Fetishism usually becomes evident during puberty, and may develop prior to that.[1] No single cause for fetishism has been conclusively established.[8]

Some explanations invoke classical conditioning. In several experiments, men have been conditioned to show arousal to stimuli like boots, geometric shapes or penny jars by pairing these cues with conventional erotica.[9] According to John Bancroft, conditioning alone cannot explain fetishism, because it does not result in fetishism for most people. He suggests that conditioning combines with some other factor, such as an abnormality in the sexual learning process.[8]

Theories of sexual imprinting propose that humans learn to recognize sexually desirable features and activities during childhood. Fetishism could result when a child is imprinted with an overly narrow or "incorrect" concept of a sex object.[10] Imprinting seems to occur during the child's earliest experiences with arousal and desire, and is based on "an egocentric evaluation of salient reward- or pleasure-related characteristics that differ from one individual to another."[11]

Neurological differences may play a role in some cases. Vilayanur S. Ramachandran observed that the region processing sensory input from the feet lies immediately next to the region processing genital stimulation, and suggested an accidental link between these regions could explain the prevalence of foot fetishism.[12] In one unusual case, an anterior temporal lobectomy relieved an epileptic man's fetish for safety pins.[13][14]

... The sensory regions for the feet and genitals lie next to each other...

Various explanations have been put forth for the rarity of female fetishists. Most fetishes are visual in nature, and males are thought to be more sexually sensitive to visual stimuli.[15] Roy Baumeister suggests that male sexuality is unchangeable, except for a brief period in childhood during which fetishism could become established, while female sexuality is fluid throughout life.[16]​

By definition, incest is not a fetish: "a sexual fixation on a nonliving object or nongenital body part." IRL incest is driven not by youthful imprinting but by power asymmetry. A stronger relative (usually male) exploits a readily available weaker relative as a sexual target. An authority figure rapes a child. This is all too common but is NEVER justifiable.

LIT thrives on fake incest and other fantasy pr0n. Werewolves and centaurs only mask bestiality. Mind Control and Erotic Horror tales are total fantasies. Turning Mom into a slut is a fantasy. Enjoying being raped is a fantasy. This is fucking LIT fantasyland, folks, filled with improbable anatomies and motives.

It's fiction.

I didn't mean to imply that it was justified. And IMO, not all fetishes involve objects.

 

[KamaKamaSutra]

I didn't mean to imply that it was justified. And IMO, not all fetishes involve objects.

fetish noun
fe·​tish | \ˈfe-tish also ˈfē- \
variants: or less commonly fetich
Definition of fetish
1a : an object (such as a small stone carving of an animal) believed to have magical power to protect or aid its owner
broadly : a material object regarded with superstitious or extravagant trust or reverence
b : an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion : PREPOSSESSION
c : an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression

I think Websters definition is better and more encompassing of what a fetish is.
But even it looses a bit since it implies that one can't enjoy sex without a fetish. While this is true in some it isn't in all.





On incest in particular, while I have no interest in any of my family members, I can't stand to talk to most of them much less have sex with any of them or their spouses. I don't a incest fetish is limited to the power exchange between family members. Isolation can drive people together in many ways. I mean Flowers in the Attic explores this in a way that explains rather than defines, demeans or supports.

 

[Hypoxia]

In brief: IRL incest is usually rape. IRL rape is a power-play, not a sexual fetish. (Not a Zuni fetish either, of which I own a few.) LIT incest is usually a nice fantasy. It is fiction.

Tangent, Zuni fetishes and figures: Zuni artists are quite clear about their carvings. If the maker and possessor believe it possesses sacred power, it's a FETISH. If it's a secular carving made to sell to tourists and collectors, it's a FIGURE. A true fetish requires belief.

IMHO sexual fetishism requires belief that the non-genital object of devotion emanates erotic power of arousal. Look at those sexy toes! Is the inability to cum without a pet nearby fetishistic? If one is unable to cum unless fucking kin, is that a fetish?

 

[SimonDoom]

IMHO sexual fetishism requires belief that the non-genital object of devotion emanates erotic power of arousal. Look at those sexy toes! Is the inability to cum without a pet nearby fetishistic? If one is unable to cum unless fucking kin, is that a fetish?

Why does it even matter? Why is it a question worth asking?

As you say, it's a fantasy. Take a hundred people with a particular fantasy and you'll probably get a hundred different explanations why they have that fantasy. But for Literotica purposes, who cares? People like what they like and they come here to write about it and read about it. Nobody's hurt, and many have fun. I don't think we'll ever really know what the connection is between what people read here and what in their real lives impels them to do so. I make no assumptions. I don't care. I don't judge. People come here to play out fantasies, either as readers or writers, and that's enough for me.