How do we draw the line between normalization and condemnation?

[MillieDynamite]

It's all fun and games until the one you trust decides to see how long they keep you that way before they let go. There is that moment between passing out and fully out of it when you can linger in between worlds, which heightens the experience before the culmination of climax. In a sincere desire to give you the best orgasm of your life, they might give you the unique experience of them all, cumming and going simultaneously.

I guess "sane" is entirely subjective and cultural, and "safe" is all about your risk tolerance, but I can imagine some forms of breath play that are safer than, say, crossing a busy street in the US or working as a feller. What do you think of, say,

1. covering someone's mouth and pinching their nostrils
2. having someone seal a gas mask by pressing upward against your hand, so that they have to fight gravity to maintain the seal
3. forcing someone's head down in water, with the caveat that they have to keep resisting or you pull them up

 

[KeithD]

I guess "sane" is entirely subjective and cultural, and "safe" is all about your risk tolerance, but I can imagine some forms of breath play that are safer than, say, crossing a busy street in the US or working as a feller. What do you think of, say,

1. covering someone's mouth and pinching their nostrils
2. having someone seal a gas mask by pressing upward against your hand, so that they have to fight gravity to maintain the seal
3. forcing someone's head down in water, with the caveat that they have to keep resisting or you pull them up

I'd tolerate a bit of #1 in a story, but none of #2 and #3.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Love, what a strange thing.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I've had S & M fantasies my whole life, since pre-latency. I never felt guilty about this, although I did keep it perfectly private. I took a break from reading erotica when I was around thirty and resumed reading (and writing) it when I was 76. I was initially very puzzled at the BDSM "world." I couldn't help but think that the real life quest for love and trust between a dom/domme and submissive was not a good path to take for real life relationships. And I was troubled by the growing normalization of BDSM portrayed by events like a chaplaincy workshop on BDSM practises and the revelation that a candidate for a New York burrough office frequented BDSM clubs. But what did I know? I am a knee jerk liberal and never said anything in forums like this about my surreptitious judgementalism.

But a two page op-ed in the New York Times a week or so ago has sharpened my questions. It was a report of the growing practise of erotic choking among teenagers, and the problems it presents for people who are learning what sexual relations are all about. I won't repeat the points here, but I was left with the clear thought that I don't want BDSM/S&M normalized.

I'm a firm, un-ambiguous supporter of the idea that one can't and shouldn't be asked to control one's fantasies. I don't think of the existence of Literotica.com as normalizing non-vanilla sex, but I'm not sure how to articulate why, beyond the fact that no one is advertising it in the newspaper or cable TV. You have to seek it out.

But I also think we need to provide limits to the models we present to our children about what a healthy sex life in action is all about.

What I don't know is how to put these thoughts into practise. I want Lit to be as open to peoples's imagination as possible. But I don't want dark erotica to be normalized as a thing to teach in school.

Any thoughts about how society should manage these things?

I don't think you're being honest with yourself....
You say you never felt guilty about your fantasy's?
Yet in the next sentence you say. You keep it all very private...
Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. If you keep it locked away, it's because you do feel guilty... Embarrassed... Ashamed...
I remember when I was much younger and all of my friends hated the Spice girls.... Where as I loved them... They were my guilty pleasure slash secret. In the company of my friends, I hated the spice girls. In my bedroom, I played their music loudly...
If you don't feel comfortable talking about it in front of your friends or family. It's because you do feel shame and guilt....
Just my thoughts

Cagivagurl

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't think you're being honest with yourself....
You say you never felt guilty about your fantasy's?
Yet in the next sentence you say. You keep it all very private...
Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. If you keep it locked away, it's because you do feel guilty... Embarrassed... Ashamed...
I remember when I was much younger and all of my friends hated the Spice girls.... Where as I loved them... They were my guilty pleasure slash secret. In the company of my friends, I hated the spice girls. In my bedroom, I played their music loudly...
If you don't feel comfortable talking about it in front of your friends or family. It's because you do feel shame and guilt....
Just my thoughts

Cagivagurl

I'm not sure there's a direct correlation between privacy and shame. There maybe a link from one to the other, sure, but just because you keep something private, doesn't automatically mean you're ashamed about it. It might be you're quite comfortable in your own mind about whatever it is you do, but others might not be. You might be censoring yourself, but that doesn't necessarily equate to shame. It's a subtlety, for sure.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'd say both Shame and Pride are somewhat personal to everyone. What one is ashamed of, another might take pride in.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I guess "sane" is entirely subjective and cultural, and "safe" is all about your risk tolerance, but I can imagine some forms of breath play that are safer than, say, crossing a busy street in the US or working as a feller. What do you think of, say,

1. covering someone's mouth and pinching their nostrils
2. having someone seal a gas mask by pressing upward against your hand, so that they have to fight gravity to maintain the seal
3. forcing someone's head down in water, with the caveat that they have to keep resisting or you pull them up

I admit, I am speaking outside of my expertise, but i have read an essay from someone who was both a BDSM enthusiast and an EMT, and the gist was that once you limit someone's ability to both communicate and breathe it is dangerously hard to differentiate between real symptoms of health conditions (and I swear the number one thing he mentioned was stroke but that doesn't sound right as I say it now) and roleplayed enjoyment.

@Bramblethorn might have that article

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. If you keep it locked away, it's because you do feel guilty... Embarrassed... Ashamed...

Hardly necessarily. I'm not the slightest bit ashamed of what I do here, but I certainly don't need the hassle of dealing with family, friends, co-workers, bosses, etc knowing.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Love, what a strange thing.

Love is probably the strangest interest of them all. Unlike some people, I do believe it exists. Then we have this list. Some of these are so common that they barely qualify as "paraphilias," or they are basically harmless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paraphilias

Sophophilia? An erotic interest in learning? Sounds like a good thing perhaps. Maybe Sam Cooke had the right idea.

Now, I don't claim to be an A student
But I'm trying to be.
For maybe by being an A student, baby
I can win your love for me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I admit, I am speaking outside of my expertise, but i have read an essay from someone who was both a BDSM enthusiast and an EMT, and the gist was that once you limit someone's ability to both communicate and breathe it is dangerously hard to differentiate between real symptoms of health conditions (and I swear the number one thing he mentioned was stroke but that doesn't sound right as I say it now) and roleplayed enjoyment.

@Bramblethorn might have that article

I think that'd be one of Jay Wiseman's essays on the topic: https://www.jaywiseman.com/SEX_BDSM_BreathPlayMain.html

He doesn't talk much about stroke, more about premature ventricular contractions:

More importantly, unconsciousness is a symptom, not a condition in and of itself. It has numerous underlying causes ranging from simple fainting to cardiac arrest, and which of these will cause the unconsciousness cannot be known in advance.

...

When the heart gets low on oxygen, it starts to fire off "extra" pacemaker sites. These usually appear in the ventricles and are thus called premature ventricular contractions -- PVC's for short. If a PVC happens to fire off during the electrical repolarization phase of cardiac contraction (the dreaded "PVC on T" phenomenon, also sometimes called "R on T") it can kick the heart over into ventricular fibrillation -- a form of cardiac arrest. The lower the heart gets on oxygen, the more PVC's it generates, and the more vulnerable to their effect it becomes, thus hypoxia increases both the probability of a PVC-on-T occurring and of its causing a cardiac arrest.

When this will happen to a particular person in a particular session is simply not predictable. This is exactly where most of the medical people I have discussed this topic with "hit the wall." Virtually all medical folks know that PVC's are both life-threatening and hard to detect unless the patient is hooked to a cardiac monitor. When medical folks discuss breath control play, the question quickly becomes: How can you tell when they start throwing PVC's? The answer is: You basically can't.

The gist is that the longer you cut off breath the bigger the risks get, "hand over mouth" might be less risky than choking, but there's no safe point. Unfortunately a lot of the risks aren't well quantified because good luck getting ethics approval for that research, so whether the "safer" versions of breath play are more or less risky than crossing the street, I couldn't say.

A lot of "safe breath play" discussion is predicated on the idea that there's a progression where if you deprive somebody of oxygen for a while, first they pass out and then afterwards Bad Stuff starts happening, so if you stop at the moment they pass out you won't get the Bad Stuff. Part of Wiseman's argument is that some kinds of Bad Stuff can start happening before they pass out, and don't necessarily stop when you restore airflow.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm not sure there's a direct correlation between privacy and shame. There maybe a link from one to the other, sure, but just because you keep something private, doesn't automatically mean you're ashamed about it. It might be you're quite comfortable in your own mind about whatever it is you do, but others might not be. You might be censoring yourself, but that doesn't necessarily equate to shame. It's a subtlety, for sure.

Uh huh. My lavatory has a door on it, even though I'm not ashamed of the things I do in there.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Uh huh. My lavatory has a door on it, even though I'm not ashamed of the things I do in there.

Illustrates the point perfectly! Thanks, Bramble!

 

[Bramblethorn]

Breath play, mummification, and knife play are about the most dangerous aspects of a BDSM lifestyle. So very, very many ways things can go wrong on all three of them.

FWIW, Wiseman's "Bad Five" - the ones he considers inherently dangerous, in ways that can't be reasonably mitigated by education and best practices - are self-bondage, ball kicking (fun fact! a hard kick to the testicles can trigger a heart attack), gun play, breath play, and chest punching.

That ranks them as more dangerous than knife play, electroplay and fire play, all of which he classes as things that can be done safely with the right precautions.

This seems to me the most dubious part of the life, the mental power dynamics.

And it's hard to just ask someone how they managed it because when a relationship turns abusive, the victim typically doesn't even realize how fucked things are. Sometimes, neither does the abuser. It creeps up.

It would take a very special Dom to manage this long term with a ton of frequent outsider perspective to keep the emotional abuse as pretend--because that line is so thin.

Can't agree with this, sorry.

I think some people who form their ideas about D&S by reading erotica get the impression that it's all 24/7 "total power exchange" stuff where the dom is dom and the sub is sub in every aspect of their lives. There are a few people who do live that scene, but IME it's a small minority.

What's vastly more common, AFAICT, is "I boss you around for an hour or two, we get off on it, and then we go back to a normal relationship". The line between in-scene and out-of-scene is a pretty clear one. Being a dom in the bedroom doesn't turn me into a controlling partner all the other hours in the day any more than playing D&D makes me think I'm a wizard. Most subs lead pretty normal social lives with plenty of contact with people outside the relationship.

Are there people who use D&S as a cover for abusive/controlling relationships? Sure thing. But I doubt it's D&S turning those people abusive and it doesn't take SuperDom to practice D&S without turning into an abuser.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Hardly necessarily. I'm not the slightest bit ashamed of what I do here, but I certainly don't need the hassle of dealing with family, friends, co-workers, bosses, etc knowing.

This is my opinion only...
I am not saying it's wrong to have fantasy's. I'm not dengrating anybody for having them... What goes on in your mind is your business...
There is a correlation (I think between being able to share your thoughts, and keeping them locked inside...
It may be subconscious because you know that if you shared them. You would be ridiculed because those thoughts are not considered acceptable by people...
You keep them locked away, because you are ashamed... Whether you are aware of it or not...
Shame comes from realising what you are thinking or doing is not considered normal... I'm not saying it's right or wrong. That's just the way it is...
If you were a Celtic supporter sitting surrounded by Rangers fans at a football match in Scotland. You would be cheering under your breath...
We as humans are influenced by the noisy majority.
So our little kinks and fantasy's stay locked away. We know how we would be viewed and that makes us guilty...
Not saying it's a fact. Just my opinion.

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

I'm not sure there's a direct correlation between privacy and shame. There maybe a link from one to the other, sure, but just because you keep something private, doesn't automatically mean you're ashamed about it. It might be you're quite comfortable in your own mind about whatever it is you do, but others might not be. You might be censoring yourself, but that doesn't necessarily equate to shame. It's a subtlety, for sure.

I think that it's subconscious.
We are educated by society from an early age.
We grow up understanding people with those thoughts are naughty...
So when we feel them. There is guilt, and shame. Which is why we keep them locked away.
Just my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

 

[SimonDoom]

Can't agree with this, sorry.

I think some people who form their ideas about D&S by reading erotica get the impression that it's all 24/7 "total power exchange" stuff where the dom is dom and the sub is sub in every aspect of their lives. There are a few people who do live that scene, but IME it's a small minority.

What's vastly more common, AFAICT, is "I boss you around for an hour or two, we get off on it, and then we go back to a normal relationship". The line between in-scene and out-of-scene is a pretty clear one. Being a dom in the bedroom doesn't turn me into a controlling partner all the other hours in the day any more than playing D&D makes me think I'm a wizard. Most subs lead pretty normal social lives with plenty of contact with people outside the relationship.

Are there people who use D&S as a cover for abusive/controlling relationships? Sure thing. But I doubt it's D&S turning those people abusive and it doesn't take SuperDom to practice D&S without turning into an abuser.

I completely agree. It's role play. It's fantasy. This is my personal experience. In my brief forays into D/S activity I've enjoyed playing the Dom, but it's not at all a 24/7 thing for me, and I wouldn't want it that way.

 

[AchtungNight]

BDSM doesn't turn me on because, as a victim of physical and sexual abuse, I don't associate pain with erotic feeling. The same is true of submission and giving up control of myself to another person. I think love is best unrestrained. Readers of my stories featuring domination play may note the characters share that view. I am also aware that a lot of people have died or become seriously injured from autoerotic asphyxiation and similar things. I never want to be part of them myself.

Yes, I had a girlfriend with whom I on a couple occasions played around using handcuffs in college, but I didn't like it long term and neither did she, so we stopped it before we broke up. The handcuffing scene in Saving Sandra and Eliza Dushku tranquilizing a stalker in Hunters & Prey (I forgot about these bits in my stories last post) is tongue in cheek humor, not something I'm actually into. Same for the other BDSM stuff I have written, I put it in for amusement and nothing more. Garth Ennis does similar stuff, as do many mainstream writers, with (I assume and hope) similar intent.

 

[SimonDoom]

So our little kinks and fantasy's stay locked away. We know how we would be viewed and that makes us guilty...
Not saying it's a fact. Just my opinion.

Cagivagurl

Guilt and shame are two different things. Guilt is internal -- it occurs when what you do conflicts with what, internally, you believe to be right.

Shame is external. Shame is when you feel the disapproval of the community about what you are doing. One can feel shame without feeling guilt, even though society often sends us the message that we should feel both.

They're two conspicuously different things.

I feel no guilt at all about writing stories at Literotica. I feel no guilt about my sexual fantasies. The fact that I don't tell all my friends and family about what I'm doing here in no way "proves" that I actually do feel guilty. I'm just making the practical decision that it's better for me to keep it private and I don't need or want to deal with other people's disapproval, even if I believe that disapproval isn't warranted.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

You keep them locked away, because you are ashamed... Whether you are aware of it or not...

No, just letting you know that you're wrong here. It would just be detrimental for my real life if certain people knew. I'm not the least bit ashamed of what I do here, but I really don't need to say, lose my job over it, so it stays secret. I also don't need any certain real life people following me here to track my sexual ideas, so it stays secret. I also don't need any of my more prudent relatives not inviting me over for xmas dinner anymore because it turns out I'm a literary skank from hell, so it stays secret. Anonymity here for me is just practical.

 

[AchtungNight]

I mostly keep what I do here quiet out of practicality, but I did go through a mid life crisis recently when I realized my online erotic writings may be my only lasting legacy and I told a lot of people among my family and friends. Not one negative reaction to my face, everyone accepted it. Not encouraging people to follow my path, just saying it can work out positively.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Uh huh. My lavatory has a door on it, even though I'm not ashamed of the things I do in there.

You mean a "bathroom," I assume, in your house. Since I live alone, it doesn't matter if I close the door or not. Anybody who was in the Scouts may remember those "latrines" which were basically frame structures. One had to sit in a row, no doors, and one got used to it pretty quickly. I wonder if they still have those. (Camp Pouch on Staten Island and Ten Mile River in Sullivan County.) There was running water (cold, as I remember) for sinks and showers, but not for the toilets. They didn't smell very good, that was for sure.

Scouting rounded a guy out, I guess.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Guilt and shame are two different things. Guilt is internal -- it occurs when what you do conflicts with what, internally, you believe to be right.

Shame is external. Shame is when you feel the disapproval of the community about what you are doing. One can feel shame without feeling guilt, even though society often sends us the message that we should feel both.

They're two conspicuously different things.

I feel no guilt at all about writing stories at Literotica. I feel no guilt about my sexual fantasies. The fact that I don't tell all my friends and family about what I'm doing here in no way "proves" that I actually do feel guilty. I'm just making the practical decision that it's better for me to keep it private and I don't need or want to deal with other people's disapproval, even if I believe that disapproval isn't warranted.

In your opinion of course....
Guilt and shame are locked together... (I believe) Of course, I'm no expert and not claiming to be...
If for instance, you have a though or an idea, that you know is wrong because society, friends and family have taught you that. It is embedded in your mind...
Yet you still have those thoughts. You feel ashamed, and then if you continue to have them. You feel guilt...
I think it's almost impossible to separate them. One leads to the other...
You feel differently. Your prerogative.

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

No, just letting you know that you're wrong here. It would just be detrimental for my real life if certain people knew. I'm not the least bit ashamed of what I do here, but I really don't need to say, lose my job over it, so it stays secret. I also don't need any certain real life people following me here to track my sexual ideas, so it stays secret. I also don't need any of my more prudent relatives not inviting me over for xmas dinner anymore because it turns out I'm a literary skank from hell, so it stays secret. Anonymity here for me is just practical.

I may be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time...
I never claimed what I said was anything other than my opinion...
Cagivagurl

 

[Bramblethorn]

I completely agree. It's role play. It's fantasy. This is my personal experience. In my brief forays into D/S activity I've enjoyed playing the Dom, but it's not at all a 24/7 thing for me, and I wouldn't want it that way.

Yup. I would hate it.

My work sometimes involves managing people. I do find parts of that rewarding; I've had times where I managed to help somebody who was struggling, boost their confidence and skills, and those are treasured memories. But those good experiences are about increasing their independence and reducing the need for me to oversee them, not about bending them to my will. And even the good experiences are draining. Even if you gave me a management job that was only the good bits, I would burn out if I tried to do it full-time. Running other people's lives is a lot of work!

A few months back, a younger colleague asked me to be a mentor. It took me about three or four long conversations with them to get past "why on earth are they asking me this, no way I could teach them anything worth knowing" and into "huh, maybe I actually can be a helpful role model in some areas?" It's still a scary idea, and this is with somebody who sought me out.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You mean a "bathroom," I assume, in your house.

For me the "bathroom" is a separate room which contains a bath and a shower, and does not contain a toilet. (It can do, but mine doesn't.)

Since I live alone, it doesn't matter if I close the door or not.

I live with cats, so I'm usually not allowed to close the door (closed doors are an affront to cathood, especially when the food monkey is on the other side of them). But at least it's there, and I use it when we have company over!