How do we draw the line between normalization and condemnation?

[Bramblethorn]

If somebody's calling their partner a filthy useless whore while taking a piss on their face, I don't need a study to draw a connection between that and potentially exacerbating latent abusive tendencies should that person already be predisposed to them.

I can't tell you what your standards for believing things should be. But mine are higher than "well this is how I imagine it would go, with this thing that I haven't experienced or witnessed", which is all I'm seeing here. Without some kind of evidence we're in "Sauron would beat Thanos in a fight" territory.

And if one person is always the person who gets their face pissed on while being verbally berated in the most humiliating ways. And their spouse is always the person doing the pissing and berating, you don't think that has any effect whatsoever on the power dynamics of their relationship?

Maybe a study needs to be done, but that seems pretty cut and dry to me.

"Dry" isn't exactly the word I'd have used there...

 

[nice90sguy]

Coerced consent, rationalisation of abusive behaviour, all that stuff is depressingly common in vanilla relationships.

This.

As a guy who's into being submissive during sex, I'm super-careful not to impose myself on my partner too much about it. This is, of course, a well-known Catch-22 in D/s relationships.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Thank goodness for Jay Wiseman coming up on searches about kink. I share concerns about kids finding out about more and more activities from porn, but not the safety concerns to go with them. There's demand for info - local munches are overwhelmed with people - but few venues to provide the regular workshops or pre-club sessions that were the mainstay of the BDSM scene 20 years ago, and more worryingly, few clubs for people to play where they have the safety net of other people around.

If somebody's calling their partner a filthy useless whore while taking a piss on their face, I don't need a study to draw a connection between that and potentially exacerbating latent abusive tendencies should that person already be predisposed to them.

And if one person is always the person who gets their face pissed on while being verbally berated in the most humiliating ways. And their spouse is always the person doing the pissing and berating, you don't think that has any effect whatsoever on the power dynamics of their relationship?

One could equally say 'if one person is always penetrating, and the other is always getting fucked, surely that affects the dynamics of the relationship?' Sure, it might, but men fucking women is considered normal and chances are neither think about it.

The dom pissing on their partner and using abusive terms will, hopefully, have discussed with their partner when and where and what is satisfying to them, and what their boundaries are. Does the abuse switch off as soon as a scene end? Is any part of the kink longer-lasting? Unlike what you read in stories, most kinky people switch off the d/s most of the time and end up more equal because they've had to consider what equality is.

Which isn't to say that there aren't a high number of guys (always been men, IME) who get into BDSM because they want someone to abuse, plus a bunch of fucked-up people who can't cope without feeling in control and end up with abusive relationships. I try to mention some of them in passing in my stories, along with people doing pure SM without d/s, and people who are in caring relationships and then do BDSM.

And switches. To look at most fiction in stories and films, you'd think they didn't exist...

If asked, I tell people that a warm hand over a throat, which could press down, can feel erotic. Actually pressing down at all beyond the skin is a really bad idea. If anyone really wants to try that, they'd better find someone who knows a lot more than I do! But given both the possibility of it going bad and possible consequences of that, and that it's often assumed to be attempted murder (it's likely a fair few of 'choking gone to far' cases were murder), I feel no guilt in going Just Say No.

 

[nice90sguy]

Just Say No

I usually just say mmmfffmm

 

[SimonDoom]

And if one person is always the person who gets their face pissed on while being verbally berated in the most humiliating ways. And their spouse is always the person doing the pissing and berating, you don't think that has any effect whatsoever on the power dynamics of their relationship?

Maybe a study needs to be done, but that seems pretty cut and dry to me.

The most a study will tell you, assuming it's validly done, is numbers and statistical averages. No study about human behavior is going to tell you that X sexual behavior between two people means Y in all cases. There will always be deviations from the mean. And why would anyone ever want erotica to be limited to the mean? Isn't deviance, kind of, the whole point? For many it is. I speak for myself, certainly, when I say it is.

 

[Mogrem]

I don't get this at all, sorry. Why on earth would it bother me if Morris dancing was considered normal? I already live in a country where cricket is considered normal, for Cthulhu's sake. Morris dancing is mild by comparison.

Just a weak joke. I'll try harder. On the Internet no-one can hear you wiggling your eyebrows.

I appreciate that you may not want to give out info on your location, so that may not be a question you can answer. But I've seen such stories pushed many times before - yes, by tabloid press - and every time I've been able to go to sources and check the facts, it has indeed turned out to be hyperbole and distortion. Enough times that I have difficulty believing that This Time It's Different.

In this instance I know those who put the show on, I know people who are friends with the actors, I know people who campaigned against it and had some lively discussions with people in the bars of the venues that put it on.

But you're right, I don't want to give a location. I entirely understand your lack of belief as you don't know me from Adam. I wouldn't insult your intelligence by asking you to trust me on it, but I will ask you to trust that I didn't get it second hand from The Daily Shit Stirrer. If you want to think its made up then its me doing the making it up.

Its probably the wrong example as its too lurid and immediately gets half the audience assuming its got to be a fake story.

In any case, as mentioned above, I don't know shit about sociology, and not much more about sex education either, so I'll check out here.

 

[TheLobster]

mmmfffmm

At that point, I think you just tag it as "orgy."

 

[Bramblethorn]

This.

As a guy who's into being submissive during sex, I'm super-careful not to impose myself on my partner too much about it. This is, of course, a well-known Catch-22 in D/s relationships.

Are you saying that being submissive gets in the way of asking your partner to dominate you? Or have I misunderstood that?

 

[Bramblethorn]

In this instance I know those who put the show on, I know people who are friends with the actors, I know people who campaigned against it and had some lively discussions with people in the bars of the venues that put it on.

But you're right, I don't want to give a location.

Understood and respected. Doxxing oneself for the sake of an internet debate is rarely a good exchange.

 

[lustychimera]

And why would anyone ever want erotica to be limited to the mean?

Not erotica, real life. Erotica, almost anything goes. It's purely fictitious; nobody can get hurt. And I thought we were talking averages or likelies, not absolutes?

"Dry" isn't exactly the word I'd have used there...

fair enough.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Art has no obligations of morality. Art sheds light upon life, upon truth. As soon as morals are forced upon it that light starts getting blocked and that truth gives way to lies. Propaganda could not happen without this phenomenon. Limiting art limits the truth, controls and twists the truth. Limiting art is very dangerous for society by keeping us in the dark.

Art can be moralistic but that is up to the individual artist. But as soon as society starts mandating morality for its art, it starts hiding the truth. Furthermore there are 7 billion of us with 7 billion unique sets of morals, so whose set of morals should society use to impose upon its art?

 

[MillieDynamite]

As I understand it, from those in the BDSM lifestyle, the greatest threat to safety is the pretend doms that are full-blown sadists and looking for victims. One girl told me she met a guy after endless talking and ended up meeting him at a prearranged cabin at a tourist location. It was offseason at the lake, very secluded, and within ten minutes, he had her restrained. At that point, all of the prearranged play, the safe word, and her safety went out the window. He used her for three days, released her, and left. She didn't have his real name, didn't even see his car, and felt too stupid for her trusting nature to report what happened.

 

[AwkwardMD]

As I understand it, from those in the BDSM lifestyle, the greatest threat to safety is the pretend doms that are full-blown sadists and looking for victims. One girl told me she met a guy after endless talking and ended up meeting him at a prearranged cabin at a tourist location. It was offseason at the lake, very secluded, and within ten minutes, he had her restrained. At that point, all of the prearranged play, the safe word, and her safety went out the window. He used her for three days, released her, and left. She didn't have his real name, didn't even see his car, and felt too stupid for her trusting nature to report what happened.

This is fear mongering. Anecdotal evidence presented without details or, importantly, a conclusion. It lets the audience fill in the blank on how common they think this is.

Are you suggesting this is common? Are you "just saying"?

 

[nice90sguy]

Are you saying that being submissive gets in the way of asking your partner to dominate you? Or have I misunderstood that?

Well, there's that too, but no, I meant simply that asking a partner to satisfy your kink too often can become an imposition. My partner isn't dominant by nature, but is sometimes willing to role-play -- but it's basically an indulgance on her part

 

[Paul_Chance]

As an author - normalize what you want. Condemn what you want.

As a society, specifically around normalizing the range of BDSM activities - normalize them. We know that people are doing them, we know that people are going to do them, we know that people have always done them. It's not something magic we just invented, so normalize them, get the information out there, let people find their bliss armed with information, in safe environments, and with considerate/conscious other people.

 

[MillieDynamite]

As I said, this was related to me by a person as having happened to her. I've also heard the complaint from others in the community. It is not always about them being abuser but being clueless in being dominant. Using a whip or flog, having never done so before, and hurting someone beyond agreed limits. I'm not in the community, so I can only relate what's been told to me. I have researched various play scenarios for writing purposes and haven't been in any actual play. I'm just saying what happened.

This is fear mongering. Anecdotal evidence presented without details or, importantly, a conclusion. It lets the audience fill in the blank on how common they think this is.

Are you suggesting this is common? Are you "just saying"?

 

[Kumquatqueen]

As I said, this was related to me by a person as having happened to her. I've also heard the complaint from others in the community. It is not always about them being abuser but being clueless in being dominant. Using a whip or flog, having never done so before, and hurting someone beyond agreed limits. I'm not in the community, so I can only relate what's been told to me. I have researched various play scenarios for writing purposes and haven't been in any actual play. I'm just saying what happened.

From when I was more active in various kink communities, and communities where kinksters were common - out of say any group of about 100, half men, there would be at least one known rapist (until they got banned, but then there would be at least one new guy who had 'falken out' with people in a previous venue... and guess what various traumatised victims might share a couple years later?) and a couple more whom it would be a very bad idea to play with not in public, because they'd push boundaries and/or try things without really caring about consent or safety.

We learned to always schedule Advanced BDSM workshops against the BDSM101 sessions, and explicitly ban anyone we'd seen before from attending the 101 session, because otherwise there would be about half a dozen guys who would always go along and find a girl in her early 20s, probably with dyed hair, mental health issues and oozing vulnerability, and love-bomb them and persuade them to go try getting tied up. Didn't stop the guys trying it in the bar after, but at least you could warn the potential victims first.

And The Twat with the Bullwhip. For some reason there was usually one of them, too. Sometimes OK if the bullwhip was taken off them, sometimes still a twat.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Thanks, this supports what I'd heard. I think the sights like CollarTime and Fetlife, has more of risk to them. Finding a club to make new hookups is probably the safest there is. At least, members become known quantifiable bad players rather quickly.

From when I was more active in various kink communities, and communities where kinksters were common - out of say any group of about 100, half men, there would be at least one known rapist (until they got banned, but then there would be at least one new guy who had 'falken out' with people in a previous venue... and guess what various traumatised victims might share a couple years later?) and a couple more whom it would be a very bad idea to play with not in public, because they'd push boundaries and/or try things without really caring about consent or safety.

We learned to always schedule Advanced BDSM workshops against the BDSM101 sessions, and explicitly ban anyone we'd seen before from attending the 101 session, because otherwise there would be about half a dozen guys who would always go along and find a girl in her early 20s, probably with dyed hair, mental health issues and oozing vulnerability, and love-bomb them and persuade them to go try getting tied up. Didn't stop the guys trying it in the bar after, but at least you could warn the potential victims first.

And The Twat with the Bullwhip. For some reason there was usually one of them, too. Sometimes OK if the bullwhip was taken off them, sometimes still a twat.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

FWIW, Wiseman's "Bad Five" - the ones he considers inherently dangerous, in ways that can't be reasonably mitigated by education and best practices - are self-bondage, ball kicking (fun fact! a hard kick to the testicles can trigger a heart attack), gun play, breath play, and chest punching.

That ranks them as more dangerous than knife play, electroplay and fire play, all of which he classes as things that can be done safely with the right precautions.



Can't agree with this, sorry.

I think some people who form their ideas about D&S by reading erotica get the impression that it's all 24/7 "total power exchange" stuff where the dom is dom and the sub is sub in every aspect of their lives. There are a few people who do live that scene, but IME it's a small minority.

What's vastly more common, AFAICT, is "I boss you around for an hour or two, we get off on it, and then we go back to a normal relationship". The line between in-scene and out-of-scene is a pretty clear one. Being a dom in the bedroom doesn't turn me into a controlling partner all the other hours in the day any more than playing D&D makes me think I'm a wizard. Most subs lead pretty normal social lives with plenty of contact with people outside the relationship.

Are there people who use D&S as a cover for abusive/controlling relationships? Sure thing. But I doubt it's D&S turning those people abusive and it doesn't take SuperDom to practice D&S without turning into an abuser.

There are people who do the Dom/sub thing 24/7, and I know two somebody's that were 24/7 slaves. There is a noticable difference between a Dom/sub relationship and a Master/slave one--big one being a sub still has agency, and really it's the sub that allows the Dom to Dom, anyway, and they can only go as far as the sub allows them to. People tend to forget that part, especially power tripping "Doms".

I do agree with those five, but I believe certain ones can depend on how they're done, and of course who's at play. As far as breath play; I've done choking, but I pay attention and aren't trying to Homer Simpson them. I don't mind being choked, and so far I haven't met a woman that could actually cause me harm, at least one handed. The only knife play I've done is spankings with a machete, and that's not even risky.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

No, just letting you know that you're wrong here. It would just be detrimental for my real life if certain people knew. I'm not the least bit ashamed of what I do here, but I really don't need to say, lose my job over it, so it stays secret. I also don't need any certain real life people following me here to track my sexual ideas, so it stays secret. I also don't need any of my more prudent relatives not inviting me over for xmas dinner anymore because it turns out I'm a literary skank from hell, so it stays secret. Anonymity here for me is just practical.

"I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."

Nornally I'd say fuckem if they find out, anybody. But honestly, a job don't need to know shit about an employees personal life outside of how it effects the job, like taking a day off, or ones car breaking down.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

For me the "bathroom" is a separate room which contains a bath and a shower, and does not contain a toilet. (It can do, but mine doesn't.)



I live with cats, so I'm usually not allowed to close the door (closed doors are an affront to cathood, especially when the food monkey is on the other side of them). But at least it's there, and I use it when we have company over!

The lavatory is the one that's also called the water closet, right? The setups are mildly common here in the US, they're called half-baths here, just a toilet and sink, while the full bathroom is elsewhere, usually where the bedrooms are, and the half-bath, or water closet is near common areas to keep visitors from the full bath. I like the idea actually.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The lavatory is the one that's also called the water closet, right? The setups are mildly common here in the US, they're called half-baths here, just a toilet and sink, while the full bathroom is elsewhere, usually where the bedrooms are, and the half-bath, or water closet is near common areas to keep visitors from the full bath. I like the idea actually.

"Lavatory" and "water closet" mean the same thing, yeah. The room dedicated to excretion. Neither of them are common in Australia, normally we'd just say "toilet" (or less formal things) but I was attempting to translate for international audiences. Half-baths are pretty common though normally I'd just call them a "toilet" unless I needed to be very specific.

"I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."

Nornally I'd say fuckem if they find out, anybody. But honestly, a job don't need to know shit about an employees personal life outside of how it effects the job, like taking a day off, or ones car breaking down.

IME it can be helpful if employees are comfortable sharing some stuff, because just about anything can affect the job. I've had co-workers tell me things like "hey I'm starting on some new psych meds and this may affect my concentration until I get settled into them" and that's useful for me; I can make allowances for it and I don't have to worry about whether something's going on that I need to know about. And being able to talk about "what did you do on the weekend?" can help with team cohesion, especially with virtual teams that don't get much chance to hang out in person.

But it's not on employees to share that kind of thing if they don't feel like it. The only way to make it work is for the employer to provide a workplace where people know they can talk about such things without it coming back to bite them. Even then, I wouldn't be in a hurry to share details of my sex life/Literotica writings, but it's less about shame and more about other people's comfort.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

"Lavatory" and "water closet" mean the same thing, yeah. The room dedicated to excretion. Neither of them are common in Australia, normally we'd just say "toilet" (or less formal things) but I was attempting to translate for international audiences. Half-baths are pretty common though normally I'd just call them a "toilet" unless I needed to be very specific.



IME it can be helpful if employees are comfortable sharing some stuff, because just about anything can affect the job. I've had co-workers tell me things like "hey I'm starting on some new psych meds and this may affect my concentration until I get settled into them" and that's useful for me; I can make allowances for it and I don't have to worry about whether something's going on that I need to know about. And being able to talk about "what did you do on the weekend?" can help with team cohesion, especially with virtual teams that don't get much chance to hang out in person.

But it's not on employees to share that kind of thing if they don't feel like it. The only way to make it work is for the employer to provide a workplace where people know they can talk about such things without it coming back to bite them. Even then, I wouldn't be in a hurry to share details of my sex life/Literotica writings, but it's less about shame and more about other people's comfort.

That's what I mean. For example if an employer asked me for my facebook or twitter; fuck no, off the clock is not your business, niether is my personal views on life, or anything that has nothing to do with job performance. Basically I don't abide the Henry Ford way of running a job, if you get my drift.