How do you punish or discipline?

[honeybites]

Curious why you would say that. I'm new to the BDSM conversation so perhaps I have my terminology wrong. Or maybe I'm "doing it wrong" as my partner and I are making it up as we go along. Didn't mean to sound like an asshole, just trying to be honest.

I think you have a different idea of what the word "punishment" means. If you're spanking her because you want to and you know she finds it enjoyable, that's not really punishment.

 

[CutieMouse]

Curious why you would say that. I'm new to the BDSM conversation so perhaps I have my terminology wrong. Or maybe I'm "doing it wrong" as my partner and I are making it up as we go along. Didn't mean to sound like an asshole, just trying to be honest.

Apologies for being more blunt that usual; I edited to explain myself better:

Bullshit.

ETA:

In case my comment was too brief, my point is that not all submissives are masochists, and not all masochists are submissive. It is also quite possible to take even the most erotic masochist person on the planet and figure out a punishment they hate - it may just take a slightly more creative mind than most. In other words, do not confuse incredibly hot [agreed upon] deliciously painful sex with punishment... they don't necessarily have anything in common.

There is no "right" or "wrong" other than what works for you and yours... the issue I had was with the idea that a "true" submissive viewed punishment as a "treat"... speaking as a submissive masochist - actual punishment isn't anything close to enjoyable.

 

[Cabeza]

xxxxx

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Making someone do things they find terribly unpleasant is my idea of fun.

Turning them into puddles of goo while they do it is mine.

 

[honeybites]

And if I'm spanking her because I want to - regardless of whether she finds it enjoyable at the moment?

Does punishment mean, Doing something she really does not enjoy even in a submissive, masochistic way? Or simply referring to "negative reinforcement" to make her act the way you want?

I guess I'm assuming that anything I do to her has been implicitly agreed upon in advance - so how can it be punishment?

I ask only out of ignorance, and don't mean to hijack the thread.

From the limited wisdom I can offer, punishment may be negative reinforcement. It is generally something the sub doesn't like even though consent is given to do it/have it done to her. Punishment is generally not enjoyable for the dom either, as it doesn't give the sub pleasure. Hence being punishment.

 

[Cabeza]

Punishment is generally not enjoyable for the dom either, as it doesn't give the sub pleasure.

Maybe not necessarily for a dom/me, but it would be for a sadist because the goal is not to give the sub pleasure, it's to hurt them (or shame them, or make them uncomfortable or whatever.)

Thanks for explaining to a newbie.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Punishment is generally not enjoyable for the dom either, as it doesn't give the sub pleasure.

whoa Nellie ... strike the bold and i'm with you. Keep it and you've diluted the meaning of "dom/me" in most eyes.

 

[honeybites]

Maybe not necessarily for a dom/me, but it would be for a sadist because the goal is not to give the sub pleasure, it's to hurt them (or shame them, or make them uncomfortable or whatever.)

Thanks for explaining to a newbie.

A sub/dom relationship between consenting partners has nothing to do with sadism as you put it.

 

[honeybites]

whoa Nellie ... strike the bold and i'm with you. Keep it and you've diluted the meaning of "dom/me" in most eyes.

Well... I mean, outside of play punishment.

 

[ZRT]

And if I'm spanking her because I want to - regardless of whether she finds it enjoyable at the moment?

Does punishment mean, Doing something she really does not enjoy even in a submissive, masochistic way? Or simply referring to "negative reinforcement" to make her act the way you want?

I guess I'm assuming that anything I do to her has been implicitly agreed upon in advance - so how can it be punishment?

I ask only out of ignorance, and don't mean to hijack the thread.

Yeah, here punishment is referring to 'correction of improper behavior'. When done right it's not enjoyed because it's not supposed to be.

Punishment (in my way of doing it) is conducted in relationships where the control extends beyond sexual scenes, where the control is carried on over into other aspects of life.

Don't sweat being new, we all started somewhere.

We've got a pretty copious FAQ here that you can peruse to get some idea of the commonly held views on relationships and styles of relationships- some follow your 'agreed upon in advance' style, others work differently.

Edit- Whoa, fast-moving thread.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

but it would be for a sadist because the goal is not to give the sub pleasure, it's to hurt them (or shame them, or make them uncomfortable or whatever.

Incorrectamundo. Put the right sadist in the same room with the right maso-sub and ... instant fog bank.

 

[honeybites]

Incorrectamundo. Put the right sadist in the same room with the right maso-sub and ... instant fog bank.

Now that one I didn't understand

 

[Cabeza]

A sub/dom relationship between consenting partners has nothing to do with sadism.

Sorry to be sarcastic, but isn't that what the the S in BDSM stands for? Seriously: people all agree (well, the people here!) that it's not a bad thing for some to get off on being hurt. The corollary to that is that some like to hurt others. (Not all dom/mes, of course.) Or so I would think.

Off to read the FAQ!

 

[honeybites]

A sub/dom relationship between consenting partners has nothing to do with sadism as you put it.

Edit.

 

[CutieMouse]

Now that one I didn't understand

Get a sadist with certain proclivities in the same place as a masochist with certain proclivities, and while the end result might look like hell to anyone else, they'll both be grinning and giggling like mad by the time things are all said and done.

 

[honeybites]

Get a sadist with certain proclivities in the same place as a masochist with certain proclivities, and while the end result might look like hell to anyone else, they'll both be grinning and giggling like mad by the time things are all said and done.

Ah.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

A sub/dom relationship between consenting partners has nothing to do with sadism.

Depends on the partners. Some have sadistic and/or masochistic tendencies as well.

One can be a dom/me in a relationship with a sub w/o physical pain involved in the equation at any time.

One can be a sadistic dom/me in a relationship with a partner on any sliding scale of pain for whatever reason.

One can be a dominant sadist in a relationship with a partner on any sliding scale of pain for whatever reason.

Well... I mean, outside of play punishment.

We're on the bus doing 50 and making a sharp turn. i realize we've got about three parallel conversations running here at the same time, so let me get the bus back on all four points of contact again. Strike pain/enjoyment from the lexicon for a moment.

Generally, when a dom/me implements punishment, whether the partner enjoys it or not has nothing to do with the equation. Discipline is training the subject of discipline to perform in an expected and accepted manner so the wheels on the bus go round and round.

Punishment is stomping on the brakes of the bus.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Tickling.

Honestly. I absolutely hate it and I have a somewhat fucked up nervous system, which makes it nothing short of horrific. 5 minutes of solid tickling will set me up with a nasty headache to carry through the day too, as a more lasting reminder of what I've done.

Like many subs, I'm masochistic but I will say that I assimilate 'punishment' pain differently to that of 'play' pain.

If we're having fun together, and/or scening, pain is enjoyable.

If I cut myself while peeling veg, it's standard, inconvenient pain.

If Master is seriously disappointed with me and chooses to inflict physical pain, I hate it. There's no adrenaline or endorphine kicking around my system. I'm just being hurt, and it's unpleasant enough to be effective.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Punishment is generally not enjoyable for the dom either, as it doesn't give the sub pleasure. Hence being punishment.

I quite enjoy causing pain without giving pleasure.

Because I am hard. core.

 

[Adakgirl]

And if I'm spanking her because I want to - regardless of whether she finds it enjoyable at the moment?

Does punishment mean, Doing something she really does not enjoy even in a submissive, masochistic way? Or simply referring to "negative reinforcement" to make her act the way you want?

I guess I'm assuming that anything I do to her has been implicitly agreed upon in advance - so how can it be punishment?

I ask only out of ignorance, and don't mean to hijack the thread.

If you are spanking her because you want to even if she does not find it enjoyable at the moment...is not considered punishment. If you are spanking her in order to discipline her for an unwanted behavior, that is punishment.
Punishment is not necessarily "negative reinforcement"
Info below copied from Wikipedia encyclopedia
Punishment may be used for
(a) an aversive stimulus
or
(b) the occurrence of any punishing change
or
(c) the part of an experiment in which a particular response is punished.
However, some things considered aversive (such as spanking in BDSM) can become reinforcing.
There are two types of punishment in operant conditioning:
* positive punishment or type I punishment, an experimenter punishes a response by adding an aversive stimulus into the animal's surroundings (a brief electric shock, for example).
* negative punishment or type II punishment, a positive reinforcer is removed .
As with reinforcement, it is not usually necessary to speak of positive and negative in regard to punishment.

 

[Adakgirl]

I guess I'm assuming that anything I do to her has been implicitly agreed upon in advance - so how can it be punishment?

Once limits are set and agreed upon and she has agreed to submit to you, then it goes without saying that her submission would involve submitting to your decisions and punishments as well. If anything you do to her is implicitly agreed upon in advance right before you do anything to her (unless punishments and discipline are hard limits for her or you) ...then that in my opinion it is not submitting, because she can call the shots, it is role playing and acting out a scene.

What I mean is, if she does not give you consent to use punishment to discipline her in order to correct behavior, then the answer your question above is...no, it can't be punishment

 

[Adakgirl]

For myself, in my particular relationship, I don't punish. Punishment is a treat to a real sub. The scene is about my pleasure, not hers. I tell her - or make her - do as she's told (within, of course, the guidelines we set ahead of time!) I spank her if I feel like causing her pain, not to punish. Maybe this sounds harsh, but it's what she wants (and I'm a big puppy dog, after!)

Are you referring to the BDSM relationship you have with your wife?

 

[honeybites]

I quite enjoy causing pain without giving pleasure.

Because I am hard. core.

Why you... uh... sadist!

 

[rosco rathbone]

Why you... uh... sadist!

Watch it with that :avery:!

 

[honeybites]

Watch it with that :avery:!

Whaddaheck's an avery.