How far yould you go to "win"

[Pure]

Four inch heels said,

Dommes want the same thing Doms want! To mold someone to our vision of their best possible self, to stretch and explore their preconceived limits and boundaries, to "free" them to open
all sides of their personalities.

I don't echo Saint Sinner's apparent worry about rabid manhating dommes breaking noble men**, but I find four inch's statement a bit excessive:

'Four inch', as self identified 'domme' is just on the verge, it sounds, of getting licensed in humanistic and transpersonal psychotherapy. OR setting up an ashram for seekers on the Goddess Path to Cosmic Oneness.***

(It's actually not a joke; more than a few 'domme' sites,--one whose owner visited here last year-- look like that. It's a step up from 'sex worker' to therapist/guru.)



**I see he has rephrased in terms of having a scientific curiosity about domme's motives, and I stand corrected.

***{Added: Of course many a dom is a would be guru, healer, and agent of Universal Oneness.}

 

[lark sparrow]

I think I can honestly say that no one here is actually hating you, Saint_Sinner... nor are you pigeon-holed for life.

All of the questions you have asked have been answered if you read. If you don't like the attitudes you received, then check yours or buck up.

If you need to be taken by the hand and spoon fed BDSM 101 and how to relate to anyone who is not me, then perhaps calling yourself a BDSM Dominant is a bit cocky and a humbler and less assumptive attitude would be helpful.

It's no one's job here to look past your assumptions and questionable thought processes to relate to you on a level you cannot relate to them. You're a grown man/person.

 

[Shadowsdream]

This is mostly for the Dommes, (I have a great lack of understanding in what and why a Domme is, and am trying to learn)

+++ MOSTLY for the Dommes? Who would make up the other percentage of opinions you seek?

How far would you go in order to crush, break, disprove the commonly accepted male female gender roles?

+++ Where do you get your information that there are "commonly accepted" gender roles in this day and age please?

This world is a man's world, and I don't see it changing soon.

+++ Who claims it is a man's world?

Have you had any experience with a man that couldn't be controlled with sexual discipline (orgasm denial, feminising)?

+++ Never...male submissives bring with them an honesty and bravery that encourages them to submit in all ways that I deem appropriate. Their pride in My pleasure is reward enough to obey


Would the physical punishment that it would eventually take to make an unsubmissive man submit eventually be too much?

+++ I wouldn't waste two seconds of My time trying to take an unsubmissive man to his knees. Too much? Even the thought of the question seems a bit presumptuous since as a Fem Domme I am besieged with too many already that have the deep and beautiful need to submit.

I am talking about actually taking a man's manhood unwillingly. Making him submit.

+++The concept bores Me...a man's manhood is nothing more than a cock and an ego. His need or desire to keep it doesn't interest Me one way or the other.

I don't understand this, because I have no desire to submit......

+++ Many men would have no desire to submit, many would find the idea repulsive and for others the idea is laughable. There is no right or wrong answer and choosing one over the other does not make one more or less in the eyes of most women. Whatever turns your crank...

I can understand submissiveness in women but the reasons to me are still ethreal.

+++ How can you say you understand submisissiveness in women without understanding the reasons for their submission?

I'll try to make it simple in my POV.

Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived. No law that I can think of is not supported by the threat of violence.

+++ Being as to how submission and Domination is actually about emotions and sensations what does the "supporting law" have to do with the question please?


Men are genitically predisposed, and biologically more proficient at violence. Our creed.....When all else fails, start swinging.

+++ I can assure you that I as a Dominant Woman could make the hair stand up on the back of your neck when you view My cruelty, cold demeanor and witness the brutality of the cane laid precisely upon pristine ass cheeks in a training or punishment.

As Dommes, is there a underlying need to break a man?

+++ Some men need to be broken to feel whole. Do I need to break a man....is that need underlying? Any need I have is right up front! I have no need to break anyone.

To beat him, to make him admit his "lessness"? My own opinion as a Dom, is not wanting to break a sub, but to build her.

+++ When you understand submissives and their needs as much as you understand your own you will also understand that "admitting their lessness" is a freedom they seek.

I really don't mean to disrespect, just to learn.



I can't get the thought out of my head......." Alright, it's funny now, isn't it? (But bitch, when you untie me the fun will really start.....)

+++ +++ I can assure you the first submissive stupid enough to even think the word "Bitch" after spending years searching for the opportunity to taste My harshness would be tasting his own tears on his way out the door.


I don't know what a Domme could do to get me to change my mind about that. I have a high pain threshold, and would not be above saying "I submit" just to be free of my restraints. But once I got loose, she had better not be in arms reach.

+++ +++ I doubt there is a Domme with any real life experience that would not see through your attitude and simply pass on the play with you. You have nothing to offer Her.


I hope you all understand that I am not trying to bash, or be bashed.........just looking for understanding.


+++ My responses are not meant to bash you nor to baby you. One gender is not stronger, harsher, crueler, smarter, firmer, softer, more nurturing or more intellectual than another. Neither through predisposition nor inclination. It is life experiences that make Us who We are. Dommes.


+++ Now onto another mode here...yes there are Dommes that do feel the NEED to try to force, cajole, intimidate, tease or brow beat male Dominants into submission. Generally it is newer Dominants that are falling prey to this disrespectful behaviour but trust Me male Dominants do the same thing.

In My opinion this behaviour lessens their believability and will erode the respect they have in the eyes of the community faster than being inefficient with a crop will. When a Dominant gets carried away with their new power the ego becomes a "fool"!


Anyone out there grok?

 

[Four_Inch_Heels]

'Four inch', as self identified 'domme' is just on the verge, it sounds, of getting licensed in humanistic and transpersonal psychotherapy. OR setting up an ashram for seekers on the Goddess Path to Cosmic Oneness.

Huh?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

And if someone said that watersports comment to me, I would have nearly died laughing. It would have required, in the very least, strong liquor to calm me.

Thanks, it's nice to be appreciated! Even for all the wrong things. Or maybe especially for all the wrong things.

(The response I got was, 'what's watersports?')

 

[Pure]

In a word, 4 inch, you sound awfully therapeutic.!!

Though Saint seems to have a screw loose, I fail to see why every 'domme' has to be Carla Rogers, Mother Teresa, and Florence Nightengale rolled into one.

Can't you just grind the 4 inchers into my back and leave the character building to my therapist???

 

[Phoenix Stone]

... Many of the male dommes seem to be less about building subs, or even caring for subs or responsibility, and more about power for themselves, control, and to be frank selfishness. There are a few doms that talk about loftier things like what I've mentioned above, but I've heard it much more from the dommes. Many doms even, I would venture, come across less as a "Master" and more as a Sadist, using the dominant roll to acheive there means. There's really nothing wrong with any of that, as long as a person knows what they are getting into. If I wanted BDSM as a way to grow as a person, I would more likely seek out a domme than a dom.

You write some interesting stuff. I'm finding, or admitting, to some subby-related tendencies lately (more mental than physical interests, though, iykwim). And, even if I weren't in a longtime marriage that matters to me, based on much of what I've read by doms here, would rather find a vanilla guy who loves, respects and wants to please me, and help him find any dom tendencies (which is what I'm working on with my husband -- the blind leading the blind), than go for what I'm seeing around here, if this is the norm.
I get the impression that many of the doms here are either confused or have mixed feelings about whether subs are indeed, somehow inferior. Certainly our society respects those who would wield power more than those who love to serve. (I HATED being a waitress btw, and that is Not the what I mean by serving:>)
And I can certainly see the potential for building someone you care about through being a dom/me. (I've had an urge for getting that myself, but just assumed it was because I never got much parenting.) I always enjoy your posts. Thanks.

 

[lark sparrow]

Lark.. I'm having deja vu!

lol Summon the Devil, and then cry about the heat... always the same!

 

[Saint_Sinner]

I have heard and learned many things that I consider worthwile from all of you, and have a few responses.

Lark Sparrow-Consider that a good Domme will likely have 15 to 20 times the submissives you (a male Dominant) have vying for your attention at any given point in time. Consider that a good Domme can easily charge money for Domination should she choose to, which would be unlikely in a male Dominant's case.
How many men do you really think a Domme has need to force, crush, break or disprove?

I understand that fact, I also understand that the number of male Dommes greatly outweighs the number of female Dommes.

Sunfox -Most of the Dommes I've seen post here are clearly intelligent, experienced, strong people. (Not just women.. people. I don't feel there's a need to gender-classify on that. Anyone can be strong, anyone can be weak, regardless of what's under their clothes.) I don't think they feel a need to validate themselves by 'forcing' anyone to submit.

Never did I question the intelligence of a Domme, actually, some of the most truly elequent and thought provoking posts and threads I have read here are written by Dommes.

Sunfox- I think the entire question is somewhat skewed by an unrealistic and prejudicial view of what makes up a Domme, and what she is looking for in a relationship.

I believe you are right, I am trying to unskew and understand my POV. Hence this thread.

Phoenix Stone- Just got the impression that he may be actually trying to Change his view, rather than necessarily trying to perpetuate it. Possible?

Very possible.

First and foremost, Netzach is someone that I have paid close attention to. Well spoken and a queen of vague refrences, I greatly respect your input....

Netzach- I see about five or six Doms motivated by fear and misogyny, for every man-hating lesbian Domme I've seen, but to say anything is highly politically suspect, trust me. Maybe we should be paying close attention to the motivation for ANY human who wants to beat, subjugate and OWN another. And maybe we need to look inward and own up to our "stuff" and clean house before we make any conclusions about others.

I don't know if this was directed at me, if so, well, it is just not true. My motivation for this thread is to better understand the motivations of a Domme, in order to better understand submission as a whole. I'm a white male but was raised in Japan, where the norm was for a woman to be submissive and a man to be dominant (those norms are changing also). Even moreso than the greater part of the rest of the world. I was thinking that understanding male submissiveness might broaden my knowledge on submissiveness as a whole. Female submission seems natural to me, easier to accept.

Netzach-I have no qualms about admitting to a distrust and dislike of many men, based on continued negative interaction with men as a whole. I have no doubt that when I have a man willing to seek out humiliation and degredation in play I'm an even happier and hornier little piggie than him! I have no problem admitting that these are interconnected, and that having a powerful male under my feet feeds my personal sense of JUSTICE.
And righteous revenge makes me wet. It makes me wet in a movie when the bad guy gets his. I practically came in my pants at the end of Snatch.

This is what I was trying to touch on, when a woman is serving me, I have no sense of JUSTICE. I do not feel like I am overcoming anything. I feel worthy, not righteous. Well, it does feel "right".

Netzach-I think we both probably have this in common, you probably prefer a woman who likes you, sees the special little flame of YOUR authority and wants to honor it! Rather than trying to force a non-submissive who would spit in your eye and kick you in the balls when you untied her, hard enough to put them out of commissison. Who the fuck needs that headache? The presupposition that ALL WOMEN WANT TO SUBMIT , ALL MEN DON"T is really limiting your ability to understand this.

Submission is something given, not taken, that I do understand. I am using this thread to try to overcome my presuppositions.

Netzach-I'm not saying you're doing this, but when a person acts like these things are icky and bad, so bad that they are totally BENEATH them, under any circumstance, ever, I question whether they honor those ideas, whether they value the humanity and dignity of their submissive. I see tremendous dignity in my subs, whatever undignified positions I might like them in at times. The willingness to go there, the altruism in doing something you're not so sure of just for my stupid little sake, is touching and admirable!

I do appreciate you not attributing that statement to me personally, I will be the first to admit that there is a lot I don't understand about this lifestyle. I'm on an active quest to learn as much as I can. I know what I am, even if I still don't quite understand it all. None of us understand everything we are or want. We all learn everyday.

Netzach-ALL of the people I go into this with, are submissive and fulfilled by being dominated. They'd be as happy dominating me as you'd be being dominated BY me.

?A submissive being happy dominating you? ?Me being dominated by you? Was this a typo?

Netzach-I think the title of your post totally wraps in a nutshell why you don't get it.If you think it's about "winning a contest" you're totally and sadly off the mark.

Sunfox- Possible. But I also don't really see him as being very open to different views. As Netzach pointed out, the very title of the post makes it clear why he doesn't understand. If a woman is Dominating.. it must be to 'win'. Men do it because it is just and right for them to be Dominant. *grunting noise*
Maybe he'll surprise me. That'd be great. I love surprises! But I'm not holding my breath, either.

(about the last two) Off the mark about what? I was speaking about myself. I have no need or desire to submit to a man or woman. It definately would not be a game, it would have to be an outright extended beating, if that would even work.

sweetnpetite-Secondly, I think you have an inacurate view of just what it means to be submissive, as well as some obviously formal ideas about gender rolls. (Confusious say If understanding is what you truly seek, you will have to begin to question many of the things you 'know'. [In regards to gender rolls, and in regards to BDSM]

I thought that I was questioning what I already believed.... because it is the only way to learn....

Sunfox-Honestly, I would be somewhat leery of trusting my well-being to a Dominant that has no understanding, however basic, of my submission and what it means.

I would be even more leery of someone who thought that they knew everything and wasn't willing to learn....My bumbled and misguided first attempt at D/s was probably a root cause in my divorce. So, i'm not saying your wrong,.....just wrong about me. I have learned much since then, now I am trying to understand.....

Lark sparrow-All of the questions you have asked have been answered if you read. If you don't like the attitudes you received, then check yours or buck up.
If you need to be taken by the hand and spoon fed BDSM 101 and how to relate to anyone who is not me, then perhaps calling yourself a BDSM Dominant is a bit cocky and a humbler and less assumptive attitude would be helpful.
It's no one's job here to look past your assumptions and questionable thought processes to relate to you on a level you cannot relate to them. You're a grown man/person.

Then don't address me as a child......... I don't ask to be spoon fed anything.......I believe my attitude has been nothing but exemplary and constructive...... and will continue to be so even in response to you.

Shadows Dream-This is mostly for the Dommes, (I have a great lack of understanding in what and why a Domme is, and am trying to learn)
+++ MOSTLY for the Dommes? Who would make up the other percentage of opinions you seek?

any who wish to respond

Shadows Dream-How far would you go in order to crush, break, disprove the commonly accepted male female gender roles?
+++ Where do you get your information that there are "commonly accepted" gender roles in this day and age please?

Hmmm......

This world is a man's world, and I don't see it changing soon.
+++ Who claims it is a man's world?

I didn't make it that way, but to humor you, women still control all the pussy...

Shadows Dream-I don't understand this, because I have no desire to submit......
+++ Many men would have no desire to submit, many would find the idea repulsive and for others the idea is laughable. There is no right or wrong answer and choosing one over the other does not make one more or less in the eyes of most women. Whatever turns your crank...

I didn't judge, just asked.

Shadows Dream-I can understand submissiveness in women but the reasons to me are still ethreal.
+++ How can you say you understand submisissiveness in women without understanding the reasons for their submission?

everyone has different reasons......I understand male submissiveness even less......hence this discussion

Shadows Dream-Men are genitically predisposed, and biologically more proficient at violence. Our creed.....When all else fails, start swinging.
+++ I can assure you that I as a Dominant Woman could make the hair stand up on the back of your neck when you view My cruelty, cold demeanor and witness the brutality of the cane laid precisely upon pristine ass cheeks in a training or punishment.

And as a woman, how does that make you FEEL?

Shadows Dream-I don't know what a Domme could do to get me to change my mind about that. I have a high pain threshold, and would not be above saying "I submit" just to be free of my restraints. But once I got loose, she had better not be in arms reach.
+++ +++ I doubt there is a Domme with any real life experience that would not see through your attitude and simply pass on the play with you. You have nothing to offer Her.

You are correct in that, I have been saying the same thing.... My attitude has nothing to do with it, I would not want to play. But I am just trying to understand something I don't know.

Shadows Dream- My responses are not meant to bash you nor to baby you. One gender is not stronger, harsher, crueler, smarter, firmer, softer, more nurturing or more intellectual than another. Neither through predisposition nor inclination. It is life experiences that make Us who We are. Dommes.

In My opinion this behaviour lessens their believability and will erode the respect they have in the eyes of the community faster than being inefficient with a crop will. When a Dominant gets carried away with their new power the ego becomes a "fool"!

I believe this too.

Long post, but I wanted to respond to a lot of things. I appreciate everyones input, and thanks

 

[Pure]

S&P said,

... Many of the male dommes seem to be less about building subs, or even caring for subs or responsibility, and more about power for themselves, control, and to be frank selfishness. There are a few doms that talk about loftier things like what I've mentioned above, but I've heard it much more from the dommes. Many doms even, I would venture, come across less as a "Master" and more as a Sadist, using the dominant roll to acheive there means. There's really nothing wrong with any of that, as long as a person knows what they are getting into. If I wanted BDSM as a way to grow as a person, I would more likely seek out a domme than a dom.

Sounds pretty stereotyped to me. Lots of therapists are men. Now, the ones calling themselves 'doms' or 'masters' are a pretty mixed bag, including some delusionals, some felons, some pretend ones, but there've gotta be a few 'growth' doms, if their postings here are ever to be believed.

I don't want to get into the merits, which are many, of the 'caring domme'. However, without detracting from the 'building of character' and sensitivity by shadowsdream and netzach, and other fine examples of intelligence and heart-- why is there hardly a domme/mistress around these parts who says,
"I do my job. I don't kidnap anyone. If they want to follow commands, be tortured, whipped or degraded, I'm 'here for them.' And I get off on it.

"If they're obviously deranged, desperate or fragile, I'll turn them away; their 'mental status,' I don't otherwise get into. I leave them with some needs met, including for DIS respect.

"And they don't go away in any worse mental health than they arrived. I leave the improvement of it, however, to the other professionals."

Just wondering.



PS 4 inch, perhaps this explains my question to you a bit better.

PPS: I have just read Saint's long explanation and psychic purge and backhanded tribute to the dommes. I do not see where's he's coming from or know about his degree of understanding. He appears to deserve the short--or is it long--shrift given by several intelligent responders, though his own responses don't show any evident rise in learning curve.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

warning: long line-by-line

Ok, let me try to take my swing at it, as one of those 'other's' who might have something relevant to say. (As someone who understands her own submissive feelings pretty well, while also being a strong feminist. And a straight woman with a gay sister -- who, btw, is a lot easier on men than I am. Having only male friends, but never having been in a situation to be dateraped might have something to do with that. Or maybe she's just nicer than I am. )

How far would you go in order to crush, break, disprove the commonly accepted male female gender roles?

Uh, I don't think the dommes are 'domming' for this reason, any more than you or, or any more than the subs are 'subbing' to Affirm the traditional gender roles. We're (women) doing it for sex, dude, just like you. And for a host of other reasons, emotional, personal etc. Most people don't run their sex life based on ideological abstractions. If it happens to be politically or feministically correct, that would just be a side-benefit.
Unfortunately, having subby tendencies intellectually goes against the abstract ideology I hold dear. Which made it hard to face, until I realized that, if I didn't assume a domme was a better feminist than me, I shouldn't feel like I'm letting the team down with what I like to play. It may be different for 24/7 slaves. And, oddly, I feel like emotionally I understand that, too. And that it would be just as likely for a man to feel that way, but, unless he's a feminist, harder for him to face. So, many of us Are facing and fighting gender stereotypes, but it is the stereotype that is the problem, not us.

... Have you had any experience with a man that couldn't be controlled with sexual discipline (orgasm denial, feminising)? Would the physical punishment that it would eventually take to make an unsubmissive man submit eventually be too much?

Sounds like you are talking here about a man who doesn't Want to submit. Have You had any experience with a woman who doesnt Want to submit? And don't you think the physical punishment it would take to make an unsubmissive woman -- who doesnt want to submit -- submit, would eventually be 'too much'? For her, if not for you? And why would you Want to?
Many of the questions you are asking might make more sense to you if you asked them of yourself first, rather than assuming dommes are so much different from you.

I am talking about actually taking a man's manhood unwillingly. Making him submit.

First, do you take a woman's womanhood when you make her submit? I'm guess you feel like you enhance it. Would making a woman who truly didn't want to submit do so, be enhancing her womanhood? Why is making a man submit 'taking his manhood'? He Wants to submit. (And what Is a man's manhood, anyway?) I believe that all humans have a wide range of behaviors and feelings that are normal to them. Forcing Anyone to submit to something that they Truly do not Want to submit to, is hurtful to their Personhood -- or at least that is what it feels like to them at the time. This is why woman don't like being raped any more than men do. (Try to take it out of the sexual context to understand better -- how about anyone being forced to say, eat vomit? Or whatever image works as non-gender preferenced and noxious to you.)

Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived. No law that I can think of is not supported by the threat of violence.

Already responded to this one but it bears a longer answer.
Several people have pointed out other 'supreme authorities.'
You are talking about absolute control, I suspose, of a more direct nature. But with modern technology, bigger muscles don't convey the biggest violence anymore, if they ever did. We fought off bears with our cunning, not our armstrength. There aren't too many armies or police forces I'm aware of that use their fists. So absolute size and individual muscle strength is a moot point, even if there were some relevance here, that you would like to make a bdsm-related philosphy out of.
Btw, I've taken a level of hands-on street-fighting self-defense training that makes me capable of fighting off assailants with weapons, and multiple assailants. On the other hand, in a simple wrestling contest, where I don't use my incapacitating skills, my husband can easily overpower me. We play-wrestle. He Knows I could hurt him badly (he's 6 foot and muscular), and that I would always choose not to. It is harder for women to do a mid-level defense. Full-power and crippling is easier. Most women don't know about these skills but there are other means.
The fact that the subs you are involved with come to you unarmed, is their choice. The women you are with are Choosing to give you the authority.

Men are genitically predisposed, and biologically more proficient at violence. Our creed.....When all else fails, start swinging.

Maybe. Altruism and cooperation also seem to be built-in to humans. Biologically more proficient at violence? Only if you are talking about the untrained, unarmed, and not against a bear. Turns out our brains are more important. Women and men both get that fight-or-flight feeling from adrenaline. Many of both sexes run. Certainly there are biological differences here, but as bdsm isn't about a whole groups predisposition, but about what a much smaller subgroup gets off on, I don't see that it matters much. Nature-nurture would probably get pretty complicated when it comes to a complicated bunch of behaviors like bdsm. Most men, like most men, being vanilla would seem to, if anything, disprove some direct line between male propensity and bdsm 'naturalness' or whatever you were working toward here. Most men don't seem to want or need bdsm. And, at least from what I've heard, doms tend to be more laid-back mellow types and male-subs tend to be more hard-driving dominant types in their other lives.

As Dommes, is there a underlying need to break a man? To beat him, to make him admit his "lessness"? My own opinion as a Dom, is not wanting to break a sub, but to build her.

Do you have an underlying need to break a woman? As with anything else, some like being made to admit their lessness, some do not. Dom and sub both need to know what they are getting into. This sounds like you think dommes do it because they are mad at men. Do you do it because you are mad at women?

I can't get the thought out of my head......." Alright, it's funny now, isn't it? (But bitch, when you untie me the fun will really start.....) I don't know what a Domme could do to get me to change my mind about that. I have a high pain threshold, and would not be above saying "I submit" just to be free of my restraints. But once I got loose, she had better not be in arms reach.

This whole idea would only occur to a guy who wanted to try to dom a domme, rather than a guy who wants to sub.
I sense, though, that you are also wondering if a woman could ever truly make a man submit, or 'break' him in a way that would keep him from being able to attack her. Could it happen to you in other words?
Well, you truly see yourself as someone who doesn't want to submit, but ask yourself. Are you sure, if you put yourself in that position, that she wouldn't be able to tell if you were faking and keep going until she had your Real submission, first of all.
And secondly, guys can be incapacitated just like women can. Just for arguments sake, don't you think getting your legs broken with a baseball bat would hamper you somewhat? Now remember, I'm not a domme. I wish you no harm or offense, and am just trying to answer your questions, as I understand them.
And thirdly, there are even non-physical means to making a guy submit. Again, just for argument's sake, there are things like blackmail. To break someone, again there are means that don't require brute strength. If the person knows you well enough they can do a really evil mindfuck on you, with say, a phobia, that would leave you in a puddle, shaking. Takes a little more initiative and cunning, but can be done. Do you know what most people say was the worst thing in being held hostage or in those evil foreign jails? Sleep deprivation. And I certainly know that I've been in certain rl non-sex-related situations where I'd much rather have been beaten than what really happened. Just some food for thought.

And now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[sunfox]

(about the last two) Off the mark about what? I was speaking about myself. I have no need or desire to submit to a man or woman. It definately would not be a game, it would have to be an outright extended beating, if that would even work.

A breakthrough! You just said what I'm sure most all Dommes would say. Now in theory this should awaken the fires of understanding in your brain, and let you see the exquisitely simple truth of the difference between Dommes and Doms.... There isn't one. Penis or uterus notwithstanding, there is really no difference that I've seen. They both want the same thing. They both have the same goals. (With room for differences in each individual relationship, of course.) They don't want to beat someone up any more than you do.

Seriously, this seems really quite simple to me.

I would be even more leery of someone who thought that they knew everything and wasn't willing to learn....My bumbled and misguided first attempt at D/s was probably a root cause in my divorce. So, i'm not saying your wrong,.....just wrong about me. I have learned much since then, now I am trying to understand.....

As I never said YOU specifically didn't understand submission, even though you've stated that yourself in previous posts, I fail to see how I could have been wrong to make a generalized statement about -my- personal preference. And if you want to understand, see above, where I solved all the problems of the 'what do Dommes want' question in one fell swoop.

Shadowsdream said: How can you say you understand submisissiveness in women without understanding the reasons for their submission?

Saint_Sinner answered: everyone has different reasons......I understand male submissiveness even less......hence this discussion

I thought this discussion was about Dommes. Did I miss something? Cause if us subbies are in the spotlight, then I want to know what prize I get if I 'win'!

 

[sunfox]

lol Summon the Devil, and then cry about the heat... always the same!

hijack

I love your new AV... very Salem Witch Trials. Rowr!

/hijack

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Not that you all want to hear more from me after that last post but....

S-S said, "I was speaking about myself. I have no need or desire to submit to a man or woman. It definately would not be a game, it would have to be an outright extended beating, if that would even work."

And Sunfox responded, "A breakthrough! You just said what I'm sure most all Dommes would say."

Just have to add that, while I certainly don't represent all those with subby tendencies, surely I'm not the only one who only wants to submit -- only chooses to offer their submission to -- the person or persons of his/her choosing. And who would respond to anyone else Exactly the same way as any domme. This is a Consent game.

 

[Netzach]

S&P said,

... Many of the male dommes seem to be less about building subs, or even caring for subs or responsibility, and more about power for themselves, control, and to be frank selfishness. There are a few doms that talk about loftier things like what I've mentioned above, but I've heard it much more from the dommes. Many doms even, I would venture, come across less as a "Master" and more as a Sadist, using the dominant roll to acheive there means. There's really nothing wrong with any of that, as long as a person knows what they are getting into. If I wanted BDSM as a way to grow as a person, I would more likely seek out a domme than a dom.

Sounds pretty stereotyped to me. Lots of therapists are men. Now, the ones calling themselves 'doms' or 'masters' are a pretty mixed bag, including some delusionals, some felons, some pretend ones, but there've gotta be a few 'growth' doms, if their postings here are ever to be believed.

I don't want to get into the merits, which are many, of the 'caring domme'. However, without detracting from the 'building of character' and sensitivity by shadowsdream and netzach, and other fine examples of intelligence and heart-- why is there hardly a domme/mistress around these parts who says,
"I do my job. I don't kidnap anyone. If they want to follow commands, be tortured, whipped or degraded, I'm 'here for them.' And I get off on it.

"If they're obviously deranged, desperate or fragile, I'll turn them away; their 'mental status,' I don't otherwise get into. I leave them with some needs met, including for DIS respect.

"And they don't go away in any worse mental health than they arrived. I leave the improvement of it, however, to the other professionals."

Just wondering.

,

I can do that just fine, it's not always a love-fest. I just find it more challenging and get more out of it when it is.

And I should be paid and paid well for the talent requisite to beat, get wet over it, (I always seem to, professional distance notwithstanding) smile and say buh bye. Fun, but kind of like eating ju ju bees is fun. Not a lot of sustenance. I enjoy being a sadist, but it's not all I have going on.

Frankly, I get off on investing myself and growing and changing in any ongoing and seriously undertaken partnership with a partner, which is what really satisfies my needs as well. As vanilla as that may sound to you, I think that challenging my brain and abilities this way is the ne plus ultra of being in a relationship.

My need to be sadistic can be satisfied as easily as tripping in Blahniks.

 

[sunfox]

Not that you all want to hear more from me after that last post but.... *snip*

Just have to add that, while I certainly don't represent all those with subby tendencies, surely I'm not the only one who only wants to submit -- only chooses to offer their submission to -- the person or persons of his/her choosing. And who would respond to anyone else Exactly the same way as any domme. This is a Consent game.

I think that tends to be true of many submissives. While I am willing and happy to submit to my partner, I would not be quick to hop into bondage with someone I hadn't known as long as I have him.

Being submissive doesn't mean being easy. I am very independent, and it's not in my nature to just hand myself over to someone that I don't have plenty of trust in, to respect my limits.

I think there needs to be an equal amount of trust in the submissive by the Dominant, male or female, for things to work. Consent means not having the police beating down your door in the morning with an assault/rape charge. At least, that's the theory.

 

[lark sparrow]

hijack

I love your new AV... very Salem Witch Trials. Rowr!

/hijack

LOL Thank you. There's a certain dichomoty in it for me. /hijack

Off to stalk the pampered straight, white male/vanilla Dom syndrome once again <slinks off scenting the trail of the "other white meat". Pork - it's what's for breakfast!>

 

[lark sparrow]

Lark Sparrow-Consider that a good Domme will likely have 15 to 20 times the submissives you (a male Dominant) have vying for your attention at any given point in time. Consider that a good Domme can easily charge money for Domination should she choose to, which would be unlikely in a male Dominant's case.
How many men do you really think a Domme has need to force, crush, break or disprove?

SS said: I understand that fact, I also understand that the number of male Dommes greatly outweighs the number of female Dommes.

*From your responses you seem to understand EVERYTHING.. but, there's always a but. Remind me how and why you started this thread and what you’ve learned so far? I point out that Dommes have 15 to 20 times the submissives willing, able and eager, and I ask you how many men you think a Domme needs to force? You reply with, "The number of male "Dommes" greatly outweighs the number of female Dommes."

Hopefully someone here has the patience to take you through step 1, step 2, step 3 etc. because you don't seem able or willing to make the smallest of leaps in understanding on what is expressed. You made a hell of a lot of obvious negative assumptions and a ton of glaring gender presumptions in your opening comments... and yet you expect everyone to respond to you with none of the above and treat you fairly. Which led to my next comment.

Lark sparrow-All of the questions you have asked have been answered if you read. If you don't like the attitudes you received, then check yours or buck up.
If you need to be taken by the hand and spoon fed BDSM 101 and how to relate to anyone who is not me, then perhaps calling yourself a BDSM Dominant is a bit cocky and a humbler and less assumptive attitude would be helpful.
It's no one's job here to look past your assumptions and questionable thought processes to relate to you on a level you cannot relate to them. You're a grown man/person.

SS said: Then don't address me as a child......... I don't ask to be spoon fed anything.......I believe my attitude has been nothing but exemplary and constructive...... and will continue to be so even in response to you.

*Nothing is ever your fault, I’m sure. You came in here with perfect understanding and attitude. "Even in response to me"… what a luxury. Thank you, oh wise one. I’m humbled by your generosity of spirit and constructive, exemplary tone. In case it’s not evident, I have no concerns about how you perceive me and expected to ruffle your feathers right back.

'You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink' strangely comes to mind. No one here can do your thinking for you, but there's water if you're thirsty. There's humor to be had as well, if you don't take yourself overly seriously. Maybe we can start on that once get past the stereotypes, eh?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Off to stalk the pampered straight, white male/vanilla Dom syndrome once again <slinks off scenting the trail of the "other white meat". Pork - it's what's for breakfast!>

Oh, MY Gawd!! LMAO!

(In reference to the next post... to be fair, though, he didn't say he had perfect understanding. I get the feeling it's rolling around in there. Like as soon as he understands one part, another pops up, like hydra heads. Maybe an idea chart, 4-way 'if-then' diagram, or cross-referenced links would help. I've had to do that sort of thing when I've gotten stuck on something, and was missing where I was losing logic or making leaps. He will have to do that for himself, of course.)

 

[Saint_Sinner]

I have learned that on many levels Doms and Dommes have the same motivations and goals. That there are some things I will never be able to fully understand, because for that understanding to appear I would have to experience it, and I am unwilling to do that. I learned that in this forum generalizations are to be avoided at all costs.

I learned that my initial question was phrased entirely wrong, because the intent was completly lost. The best way I can restate it has already been said.

Shadows Dream said-
+++ I can assure you that I as a Dominant Woman could make the hair stand up on the back of your neck when you view My cruelty, cold demeanor and witness the brutality of the cane laid precisely upon pristine ass cheeks in a training or punishment.

and I asked--
And as a woman, how does that make you FEEL?

Many of you have offered great insight, and I appreciate it.

I have incorrectly assumed many things, but never did I pass judgement or ridicule the ideas and opinions of others. The most I ever said is that it might not be MY way.

just wondering,......how can me saying," I dont understand" so many times be intrepreted into " *From your responses you seem to understand EVERYTHING.."? And my apoligies about the Dom/ Domme typo.

 

[lark sparrow]

Oh, MY Gawd!! LMAO!

(In reference to the next post... to be fair, though, he didn't say he had perfect understanding. I get the feeling it's rolling around in there. Like as soon as he understands one part, another pops up, like hydra heads. Maybe an idea chart, 4-way 'if-then' diagram, or cross-referenced links would help. I've had to do that sort of thing when I've gotten stuck on something, and was missing where I was losing logic or making leaps. He will have to do that for himself, of course.)

That's very true, and I respect your approach of patient explanation from many angles, to everyone.

Hard knocks goes something like this - a familiar refrain of best intentions - "tough love" lol ... Dude, I'm sorry, but when I had to give you that proverbial kick in the nuts - my intention was not to bash, be offensive or disrespect - it was simply the quickest way I could gain your full attention! Now, are you ready to listen to the answer to your question, or are you going to take your ball and go home? In case that doesn't makes sense or is hard to understand.... it's kind of like slapping a hysterical woman.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

more line-by-line

Tried to edit this to make it clearer who said what. still not. (sigh)

I have learned that on many levels Doms and Dommes have the same motivations and goals. That there are some things I will never be able to fully understand, because for that understanding to appear I would have to experience it, and I am unwilling to do that.

There is a very interesting site a Literotican (Literoticite? Literotici? Person frm Literotica) turned me on to today that Might help -- http://www.akashaweb.com/goodgirl.html

If it can help a vanilla, non-Domme find her inner Domme, which is what this part is designed to do, perhaps it will help you?

Shadows Dream said-
+++ I can assure you that I as a Dominant Woman could make the hair stand up on the back of your neck when you view My cruelty, cold demeanor and witness the brutality of the cane laid precisely upon pristine ass cheeks in a training or punishment.

and I asked--
And as a woman, how does that make you FEEL?

Just guessing here but... do you think the response you might get is going to be something like 'as a Person, it probably makes me feel a lot like it would make You feel.' Or perhaps, 'It doesnt make me feel anything as a woman, or as a Presbyterian, or a Democrat, etc.' Or perhaps, a simple, 'Great!'

I know that my ability to be strong, or, for that matter to scare someone, makes me feel powerful and feels good. There are plenty of things we can do to feel that way that aren't tied up with our sexuality. Am guessing that for those who are also feminists, anything else would just be a side benefit. Women aren't going to be dommes because they are feminists, or for that matter, anti-feminists who are angry at men, and they aren't going to be feminists or anti because they are dommes. It would just make it more comfortable to act on it if they are both. Imagine the angst and discomfort of the average traditional, fundamentalist who found herself having domme urges!

QUOTE] I have incorrectly assumed many things, but never did I pass judgement or ridicule the ideas and opinions of others. The most I ever said is that it might not be MY way. [/QUOTE]

What you're not hearing here, dude, is that there is judgement in some of the things you are assuming and saying. It's not easy to recognize in ourselves. All I can suggest here is that you try to put yourself in the place of the women you are talking to, and do mental role reversals (like that movie some years back where the ruling class is black and the underdogs are all white). Certainly you recognized the look on the women's faces in Japan who were being subjegated without their consent, and it stuck with you all these years. As a child, you probably recognized and identified with it because children aren't part of the power structure, though you knew one day you would become a part. (Bet that was a relief and made you eager to identify with those who were in power there all the sooner.) In any case, I'm getting a little far afield here. The other thing you might consider is that if you felt your ideas and opinions were being ridiculed, well:

1. I've gotten the strong impression that many of the women here are very tired of dealing with the 'it's natural for men to be doms and women to be subs' opinion.
2. Are these your ideas and opinions?? If they were foisted on you by the society you grew up in, I'm not sure why having them ridiculed should bother you particularily. If they are yours, well, you weren't asking for a debate here, where we are each holding forth on our views, feel convinced in them and trying to convince the other. You came to the dommes here saying you wanted to understand. You professed confusion, not conviction. Again, that implies a certain objective distance, a suspension of belief in the views one has previously held. Hence, one would be less likely to encounter, or be expected to expect, sensitivity about those views.

QUOTE]just wondering,......how can me saying," I dont understand" so many times be intrepreted into " *From your responses you seem to understand EVERYTHING.."? And my apoligies about the Dom/ Domme typo. [/QUOTE]

Because it also seemed like often, as soon as you got an explanation, you'd say 'I understand That but what about This,' and as soon as that one was covered, you ask some variation on the first one again. You also said both, 'I don't understand something or other,' and then 'I Can't ever understand' this other thing. It started to seem like you want to present the intellectual arguments but also don't want to feel that you could ever understand, for instance, how something feels... because you are a Dom! Circular reasoning. Why, for instance, would you think you could understand the answer to the question, 'how does that make you feel as a woman?' asked of a domme, but not understand how ANY subbie feels? See what I mean?

Feeling tired? Have a hug. What the hell, hugs all around.

 

[Saint_Sinner]

Yes, as long as the claws are fully retracted, and the reason for the proverbial ball kicking is over. I am perfectly willing to listen. Have been listening intently the whole time.

But, if I don't feel qualified to slap your tits, please refrain from busting my balls.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

That's very true, and I respect your approach of patient explanation from many angles, to everyone.

Gosh, thanks. Maybe I have some teachie tendencies to go along with the subbie ones. Or maybe I just have kids.

And I've long enjoyed your intelligence and humor but then I'm a catlover.

 

[Netzach]

I don't want to downplay the degree to which gender roles come into play here. If I were to say gender roles don't affect how I play, who I play with, and how I play who I play with, I'd be a complete fool.

When I top a butch woman, it's going to be different from topping a femme woman, or a guy identifying as female, even in a roleplay capacity.

Of course, this is where I might cause people's heads to implode, even to bring this into the mix.

I'm sad to say that I can't be the example to refute "all women are capable of submitting." Thing is, I'm not capable of submitting to someone where I don't percieve a great deal of FEMININITY to them. Submitting to a totally butch woman or man, would require the afore-alluded-to heavy non-con beating over the head and might still result in death or bodily trauma to one or both parties.