How far yould you go to "win"

[Pure]

Hi Saint,

I'll just comment on one old statement:

// I have a hard time understanding submissiveness in general (male submissiveness especially) , because honestly I am not wired that way.//

This sort of thing reminds me of those who say 'not a gay bone in my body.'

How were you at age one or two? Did you cry when scared? Did you obey to keep parents happy? Did you defer to daddy, perhaps, for your first 10-15 years? That's submission, baby.

I'm not saying it's right on the surface, now, but as the Stanford 'prison' experiments showed, it's there for most who become 'prisioners.' Hear of Stockholm syndrome? Well confine you and make your life dependent on someone of either sex and first thing ya know...submission; worship; compliance. Patty Hearst-- more than exemplary compliance.

So as a 'taste', I buy your story. As to your view of your 'essence'--wiring-- I take take that cum grano salis.

Btw, imo, it's statements like that (see beginning) bald and likely false, that got you into a bit of criticism; the 'i'll listen' coming off as less that total committment....but that's just my view from the gutter.

J.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Hi Saint,

I'll just comment on one old statement:

// I have a hard time understanding submissiveness in general (male submissiveness especially) , because honestly I am not wired that way.//

This sort of thing reminds me of those who say 'not a gay bone in my body.'

How were you at age one or two? Did you cry when scared? Did you obey to keep parents happy? Did you defer to daddy, perhaps, for your first 10-15 years? That's submission, baby.

Wasn't he talking about WANTING to submit here? And while that can and does happen with the Stockholm syndrome, he's unlikely to have experienced that. So will try take your example and add a bit to make it more obvious.

What about when your mom got mad at you for doing something wrong, S-S? Or your best friend? Didn't you ever give in first because you wanted to be close to him or her again? Maybe you felt stubborn at first, but then you ran to her/him. That feeling of something melting, or breaking in you, that feeling of wanting the person's love or approval back again, where you ran to him/her and said sorry, and they melted back, and held you and you felt better. That's submitting because you wanted to. Felt good once you did it, didn't it?

Let me know if that never happened for you, and I'll think of another. I'm BETTING you know what it feels like to enjoy submission -- you just don't know you know. (You can give in right here -- if you want to

 

[lark sparrow]

Yes, as long as the claws are fully retracted, and the reason for the proverbial ball kicking is over. I am perfectly willing to listen. Have been listening intently the whole time.

But, if I don't feel qualified to slap your tits, please refrain from busting my balls.

It's a perception "challenge". It's like having white people and non-white people. Note all categories are still based on white.

In this case it's the natural, true male Dominants vs non-male Dominants, and natural, true female submissives vs non-female submissives. Gee, as a non-male Dominant you must be really fucked up. My god, how can those non-female submissives submit!? They must be fucked up too.

A new and thoughtful thread emerges:

Greetings and salutations!

I've come here on a noble quest for knowledge.

Please, I really want to understand the complexes and major malfunctions of non-male Dominants. I'm truly not trying to be offensive.

There's simply no possible way as a true Dominant that I could ever understand. You see, I am above that by my nature.... again dear friends, no bashing. I come in peace, as the privileged true and natural male Dominant and deserve your respect. Dare I say, you should be flattered that I have taken interest in your semi-trivial and unnatural misadventures.

So, let's avoid the stereotypes, and start with the basics we all know are true - shall we?

How long have you been a card carrying Femi-Nazi? You kick your dog, right? How many men who could not be pussy-whipped have you had to murder , in your bitter and vengeful lust to feel like a man?... uhm a Dominant... well, you know what I mean. Oh, here's a delightfully interesting question! Would you drown a male child upon giving birth or simply beat him into a hopelessly unnatural non-female submissive position?

So, to get to the heart of the matter, do not let me put words in your mouth... just tell me, how fucked up and twisted is it really? Details, please!

-Yours in Gracious Understanding


That's simply my over-stated for affect, reading between the lines, from the other side of the continum parody/opinion on the original tone of your message, Saint_Sinner. I can refute the message, without killing the messenger. But if you seriously wanted to expand your vision and a proverbial kick to the scrotum would help, consider me...

Yours in service.

 

[Pure]

Hi Phoenix,

Pure said, Did you defer to daddy, perhaps, for your first 10-15 years? That's submission, baby.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phoenix added: Wasn't he [Saint] talking about WANTING to submit here?
===


Your examples, Phoenix, are excellent of course. I did wish to include 'voluntary' or 'non protesting' submission in my illustrations, that's why I said, 'defer' above. (Participation in the Stanford experiments was voluntary, btw.)

I'd simply add that in the first 10 years or so --- 15 when i was growing up-- most children freely and readily obey parental figures a vast majority of the time. As Phoenix suggests, the desire to keep parents happy is strong; threats and punishment are not necessary.

Indeed most are pleased with the label 'good boy' or 'good girl' and work for it, as I'm sure Saint did. You don't need abuse and coercion to get something 'voluntary', something (almost) indistinguishable from later 'consensual submission.'

Indeed many 'children' as adults will still carry out parents' directions or orders without fearing punishment or force as consequences.

J.
===


Phoenix in full
Wasn't he talking about WANTING to submit here? And while that can and does happen with the Stockholm syndrome, he's unlikely to have experienced that. So will try take your example and add a bit to make it more obvious.

What about when your mom got mad at you for doing something wrong, S-S? Or your best friend? Didn't you ever give in first because you wanted to be close to him or her again? Maybe you felt stubborn at first, but then you ran to her/him. That feeling of something melting, or breaking in you, that feeling of wanting the person's love or approval back again, where you ran to him/her and said sorry, and they melted back, and held you and you felt better. That's submitting because you wanted to. Felt good once you did it, didn't it?

Let me know if that never happened for you, and I'll think of another. I'm BETTING you know what it feels like to enjoy submission -- you just don't know you know. (You can give in right here -- if you want to

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I'm gonna repost a bit of my last long post, as most of it probably got lost (the way it was first written it looked like the long part was all quote from others). And I think this bit bears repeating, just in case Saint-Sinner is still reading, or some other young Dom, who is confused about this issue looks in.

There is a very interesting site a Literotican (Literoticite? Literotici? Person frm Literotica) turned me on to today that Might help -- http://www.akashaweb.com/goodgirl.html

This site belongs to an insightful Domme. This link will take you to the part meant to help the vanilla female partner of a male sub find her inner Domme. She really clarifies some of the issues of how bdsm works, and the basics of Domme-dom, in a way that is accessible, and even appealing, to vanilla women. If she can do that for vanilla women, she should be able to do it for a traditional-thinking Dom. Make sense?



(I luv smilies!)

 

[Pure]

interesting reading. she seems quite savvy. deals with the problem of subtle (and not subtle) control by the man; i'm not sure it will always work; in some cases the man's 'submissive' demands are just too great--demand too much catering to.

but for finding 'inner domme', seems insightful.

 

[Saint_Sinner]

It's a perception "challenge". It's like having white people and non-white people. Note all categories are still based on white.

In this case it's the natural, true male Dominants vs non-male Dominants, and natural, true female submissives vs non-female submissives. Gee, as a non-male Dominant you must be really fucked up. My god, how can those non-female submissives submit!? They must be fucked up too.

A new and thoughtful thread emerges:

Greetings and salutations!

I've come here on a noble quest for knowledge.

Please, I really want to understand the complexes and major malfunctions of non-male Dominants. I'm truly not trying to be offensive.

There's simply no possible way as a true Dominant that I could ever understand. You see, I am above that by my nature.... again dear friends, no bashing. I come in peace, as the privileged true and natural male Dominant and deserve your respect. Dare I say, you should be flattered that I have taken interest in your semi-trivial and unnatural misadventures.

So, let's avoid the stereotypes, and start with the basics we all know are true - shall we?

How long have you been a card carrying Femi-Nazi? You kick your dog, right? How many men who could not be pussy-whipped have you had to murder , in your bitter and vengeful lust to feel like a man?... uhm a Dominant... well, you know what I mean. Oh, here's a delightfully interesting question! Would you drown a male child upon giving birth or simply beat him into a hopelessly unnatural non-female submissive position?

So, to get to the heart of the matter, do not let me put words in your mouth... just tell me, how fucked up and twisted is it really? Details, please!

-Yours in Gracious Understanding


That's simply my over-stated for affect, reading between the lines, from the other side of the continum parody/opinion on the original tone of your message, Saint_Sinner. I can refute the message, without killing the messenger. But if you seriously wanted to expand your vision and a proverbial kick to the scrotum would help, consider me...

Yours in service.

You are right in this..........I didn't see me coming off like that........and I can see how I did.
My apoligies all around....sincerely

And BTW, bravo!

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Now didn't that feel goood??

 

[lark sparrow]

Bravo to you, Saint_Sinner. Cardboard cut outs don’t tend to survive sledgehammers. No matter if we are opposite ends of the continuum. Impressive personal integrity and strength.

 

[Pure]

I call it grace in submission.

But bravo, Saint.

Few ever admit a mistake in cyberland discussions.

J.

 

[lark sparrow]

lol You would. Okay, I take that back and I will stop being a big meanie. Here is how I see it. Saint_Sinner professed to want to see something different, and he actually did. Something that "lesser men" probably wouldn't have been able to do. We all expect a submissive to apologize. It's not as clear cut that a Dominant could actually apologize on her or his path if they decided they had erred. It would have been the expected and easiest thing in the world to call bitch or disappear. Most people cannot walk in calling Master/Mistress - it takes time, experience, trial and error... and anyone who thinks differently is probably only going to be complete in their small circle/cyber world of limited vision.

 

[Saint_Sinner]

I didn't disappear...

Haven't had much of a chance to post, but will be back soon

 

[Saint_Sinner]

well, I don't know about the "grace in submision" thing. But I do know that I don't mind pulling over and asking for directions when I'm lost. I apoligized because I didn't hear the words coming out of my mouth through the recievers ears. Once I did, I understood. nuff said.

btw...Netzach, I gots to get me one o' them fucking brute squads you've been talking about.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

AKA are you femdoms just like the stereotype??

Bumping this up just for you, NCShin, as I see the topic isn't obvious from the title.

(You will notice lara, what a sweetie I was here. Gotta hand it to the Dommes. It only took me ONE go around to be testy. Will probably sit it out next week when it comes up again. Unless there's some fun to be had )