How liberal is your society?

[graceanne]

You deserve a medal, but I can't find one, so here is a


This seems more and more like a fruitless discussion to me. You are so rapt up in your religion that you can't seem to segregate that from the task of raising children. In my opinion you can believe what ever you want about extra marital sex, as well as other matters, and you can tell your kids about your beliefs. But that still doesn't give you any right to restrict your childrens access to information. You say that you believe in people's right to choose their beliefs, but you also clearly see it as you right to filter the information given to your kids. So what do you actually mean?


I know it is common to use the phrase "my children"; we all do that. But you seem to actually believe that your kids are your property, to treat as you please. They're not! They are individual human beings with every possible right to explore the world, make their own choices and form their own beliefs. The fact that you are so passionate about your hobby (aka religion) that you let some 2000 year old book decide what is right and wrong for you is ok, as long as you don't try to use those beliefs to justify interference with other peoples lifes. And yes; I view your kids as "other people" in this context. You can inform, teach, guide all you want, but holding back information that you deem "wrong", "sinful" or just "unnecessary" is inexcusable, in my opinion.


The question is: What do your children want? It's their life and their choice, not yours!

They're children! They are not adults. What they want is to eat candy everyday, watch cartoons all the time, and never take a bath. They could care less about sex or anything like that. When they're adults they will make all the decisions, in the mean time it's my responsibility, as their mother, to make sure that they do what's healthy and right. What you and I agree on as healthy and right might differ, that's fine. But it's still what I see as right and healthy. I do not feel that sleeping with people other than your spouse is healthy. I reserve the right to be wrong, but that's my belief, so therefor it's what I'm going to tell them. I believe that following Jesus is the best way to go, so that's how I'm going to raise them. If they disagree with me as adults, I'll worry and pray, but then they'll be old enough to make those kind of decisions.

Just as telling teenagers to stay chaste doesn't mean they'll do it. Most won't! The fact that your sister acted stupidly despite having access to proper information can hardly be seen as proof that lack of proper information will prevent other kids from acting stupid!


Frankly, the thought of you homeschooling your daughter because you feel it's your right to "protect" her from what you feel is harmful information, that scares me! In my opinion you are guilty of censoring and probably misinforming your child to a degree that any civilised and truly democratic society should be capable of preventing.

I'm not going to protect her from any information. But I'm going to make sure she gets all the information. A school will not do that. My proof? How many schools do you see teaching the creation theory? They only teach the big bang theory because that's all they want you to know. This curiculum, that teaches condoms and stuff, is not going to teach it all. They are going to leave out abstinance. How is that giving all the information? They are going to tell my children that they should do anything they want, as long as it 'feels right'. Well sometimes it 'feels right' to eat candy all day, or sit on my ass doing nothing, but know what? IT'S NOT OK! And neither is doing whatever the hell you want as long as it feels right.

I can see your opinion about your present government isn't far from mine, so at least we agree at some point! As for the "strangers you know nothing about", I guess you mean your school teachers. All I can say is that if that's the way you view them, you have seriously failed, both as a parent and as a member of a democratic community. I have to say though, that this last comment is based on the way the Danish school system works, as I don't know the details about yours.

I would love to have a choice in the public school teachers, but I don't. That's why my daughter goes to a charter school. It's been proven over and over that, becuase of the union, a teacher can SUCK, and still not get fired. A teachers students can fail over and over, but instead of firing them, we keep employing them. Know why? Cause once a teacher gets on with the union they have to do something really really aweful to get fired. Like something illegal. I went to public schools for years, in many states and cities, and I can tell you horror stories about teachers who HATE teaching. For instance their's my kindergarten teacher who taught us nothing, because we were too stupid. And yes she told us that. Or my first grade teacher who would say my answers were wrong, when they weren't. (My mom looked at them - she was being a bitch.) And FYI she'd been a teacher at that school for 20 years.

Roses to catalina , FurryFury , alice_underneath and BeachGurl2 for your, IMHO, wise and sensible contributions to this discussion.

Roses to graceanne for giving you a hard time. I know I have. But however much I disagree with you I still respect you as a person.

ditto

 

[mitchell67]

[...] People want to yell about their rights, but what about MY rights to raise MY children as I see fit? What about my rights to teach my children MY beliefs? I have as much right as the very liberal athiest has.
[...] I want the right to say that I don't want my FIFTEEN YEAR OLD to know that kind of thing! Especially if said 15 year old is a virgin, and has every intention of remaining so. If I'd started to have sex my mother would have got me birth control and taught me about condoms, but I wasn't having sex! I have only ever slept with my husband and if I have anythig to say about it, that's how it'll stay. I want that for my children.

[...]

with emphasis added

And how do conservatives continue to complain about the liberal expansion of rights, even the very liberal atheist expansion?

Graceanne, knowledge is a tool, like a hammer, neutral in every way except how it's used. You've made up your mind about many things in life but you add nothing to the debate with your illogical approach to life. If your mother had gotten you condoms and taught you about birth control after you had started to have sex, she would have been too late. We as a society owe it the the succeeding generation to equip them for life's challenges, and not, as so many assume is possible, to maintain their naivete.

 

[graceanne]

with emphasis added

And how do conservatives continue to complain about the liberal expansion of rights, even the very liberal atheist expansion?

Graceanne, knowledge is a tool, like a hammer, neutral in every way except how it's used. You've made up your mind about many things in life but you add nothing to the debate with your illogical approach to life. If your mother had gotten you condoms and taught you about birth control after you had started to have sex, she would have been too late. We as a society owe it the the succeeding generation to equip them for life's challenges, and not, as so many assume is possible, to maintain their naivete.

Um, lets see. I didn't start having sex till after i got married. I was trying to get pregnant. My mother didn't need to teach me about condoms. And if someone had informed me that I had to learn, cause I was going to have extra marital sex eventualy I'd have been very upset with them. Don't tell me what I'll have done or will do.

But, not that you all really care, I'm not coming back to this thread. You all refuse to see that you want to take rights as much as the right wing conservatives want to take yours. You (general you) want to remove my right to teach my religion and beliefs to my children. You can teach my children anything, but I can't, cause you don't agree. How is this any different than the right wing conservatives, saying you can't teach your children how to use a condom? If you want to teach your children your beliefs, fine. Teach them to use condoms, and have safer sex, and whatever. I'm not going to stop you. I know that you, like me, want your children to be happy, and that's how you feel to do it. But don't try to force me to teach them your beliefs. I won't. I don't think your way is the best way.

 

[Netzach]

Um, lets see. I didn't start having sex till after i got married. I was trying to get pregnant. My mother didn't need to teach me about condoms. And if someone had informed me that I had to learn, cause I was going to have extra marital sex eventualy I'd have been very upset with them. Don't tell me what I'll have done or will do.

But, not that you all really care, I'm not coming back to this thread. You all refuse to see that you want to take rights as much as the right wing conservatives want to take yours. You (general you) want to remove my right to teach my religion and beliefs to my children. You can teach my children anything, but I can't, cause you don't agree. How is this any different than the right wing conservatives, saying you can't teach your children how to use a condom? If you want to teach your children your beliefs, fine. Teach them to use condoms, and have safer sex, and whatever. I'm not going to stop you. I know that you, like me, want your children to be happy, and that's how you feel to do it. But don't try to force me to teach them your beliefs. I won't. I don't think your way is the best way.

I dont' want to remove your right to yank your kids out of whatever curriculum you don't like. World in seven days? Farted out of the ass of your deity of choice? Rock on, go for it. As long as you're not suggesting this is what anyone else has to believe, and frankly I don't think a mainstream classroom needs to give airtime to these issues. Safe sex? Half of them can't even READ.

I was raised by extremely racist people. It wasn't until I went to school and had to deal with a diverse classroom and teachers who taught about Martin Luther King and I got a chance to look around me and think, even at a very young age "well my friend is black, and she's not like this..."

I'm not saying that being Christian is equivalent to this, I'm just saying that when you limit someone's perspective you limit their ability at times to be compassionate towards others with other perspectives.

It could be argued that my family is entitled to be racist paranoid fuckheads, and they are-- I'm just glad that I got to see vistas outside of that and I think it makes me a better person for it, if nothing else is puts me at an advantage over them in dealing with how the world actually IS.

Incidentally I was exposed to abstinence being a good idea, safer sex information should I have thought otherwise, and my first sexual experience was at age 19 with someone I was in a seven year relationship with and who I cared about very much. It just didn't work out because we changed. Now my sexuality is, I guess, a mother's nightmare, heh, but I do think that having good information and understanding the importance of BC made me gravitate towards a partner who was totally on the same page as me in terms of BC, responsibility, care, and respect.

 

[alice_underneath]

Graceanne,

*hugs*

I want to reiterate what I said before. I respect your right to make these decisions for your own children.

In addition, I understand that you plan to teach them about birth control, etc. You will just teach them at a different time, and in a different way, from the way in which my children are taught.

This curiculum, that teaches condoms and stuff, is not going to teach it all. They are going to leave out abstinance. How is that giving all the information? They are going to tell my children that they should do anything they want, as long as it 'feels right'.

Because this topic is critically important, I am compelled to correct the misinformation contained in this section of your post.

In my son's program, abstinence is discussed. It is presented as the ONLY 100% effective birth control method. Further, it is presented as the ONLY certain way to avoid STDs.

In addition, the message is not given that "children should do anything they want, as long as it 'feels right'." The presentation is very clinical - like a science class. Facts, terminology, effectiveness data, symptoms of disease, mortality rates, etc. must be learned and memorized. This is not a salacious conversation.

Contrary to the myth that learning about condoms will encourage every kid to rush out and go at it under the bleachers, the graphic information provided has a deterrent effect on their urges. My son comes home in disgust nearly every single day.

Don't believe me? Google "genital warts" images and let me know whether that puts you in the mood.

With respect,
Alice

 

[catalina_francisco]

They're children! They are not adults. What they want is to eat candy everyday, watch cartoons all the time, and never take a bath. They could care less about sex or anything like that. When they're adults they will make all the decisions, in the mean time it's my responsibility, as their mother, to make sure that they do what's healthy and right.

I think I can relate in part as a mother to where you are coming from, but as much as we want to protect and shelter them, it is not always possible no matter how much we try...unless we smother them by spending every minute of every day with them which is also not healthy, and as has been shown in some instances, still is not enough to protect them from some in this world who would harm them. I used to hate that I had to discuss with them from a very early age about 'stranger danger' as it was called in our country.....but it was necessary to make sure they were aware of what can happen and what is acceptable and what isn't in an effort to protect them. What disturbed me even more was that despite doing those things, many children are still open to the advances or desires of a paedophile, and unfortunately, many of those children found those very people were not strangers, but people they should have been able to trust such as friends and family. For many, it is necessary to know it is not right and that there are ways to get help if they are fortunate.

If they disagree with me as adults, I'll worry and pray, but then they'll be old enough to make those kind of decisions.

Please be careful if and how you do this if the time ever does arise. I had a dear and close friend who for his sake was unfortunately gay. His family are religious, his mother more so than the rest. She could never fully accept him for who he was and made it her mission to present him with every reason why he could be straight if only he would turn to the church. He struggled with his emotions and his lifestyle for years, his desire to please his family, his mother, and the need for complete acceptance instead of feeling he was a cause for her sorrow. Recently I learned he had hung himself. He had been living with her for the past 2 years trying to make everything right on her terms, and she was sure the church and Jesus was going to 'fix' him. As I know she did love him, I am sure she regrets deeply that she could never let him be who he was without making sure he knew she spent endless hours praying for his soul, but that is not going to bring him back now.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

Ok, I know that I said I wouldn't come back, but I saw netz post, so I wanted to adress some points.

As long as you're not suggesting this is what anyone else has to believe, and frankly I don't think a mainstream classroom needs to give airtime to these issues.

I'm not. We, as parents, are in this for one main reason. We love our kids and want what's best. If you feel that your child should be taught to put on a condom, I know that you feel that is what's best for them. I reserve the right to be wrong about how I raise my kids, but I also reserve the right to be right. And until God comes to me on a cloud and tells me I'm doing it wrong, I'm going to keep doing it right. I want the tolerance that I give other people. Being a Christian doesn't make me illogical, controlling, or stupid.

unless we smother them by spending every minute of every day with them which is also not healthy, and as has been shown in some instances, still is not enough to protect them from some in this world who would harm them. I used to hate that I had to discuss with them from a very early age about 'stranger danger' as it was called in our country.....but it was necessary to make sure they were aware of what can happen and what is acceptable and what isn't in an effort to protect them. What disturbed me even more was that despite doing those things, many children are still open to the advances or desires of a paedophile, and unfortunately, many of those children found those very people were not strangers, but people they should have been able to trust such as friends and family.

It depends on the age of the child. I'm a big believe in toddlers and small children shouldn't be seperated from their main caregiver (in this case me). My older daughter I let go places, but only with people I know and trust. And just because soemone's family doesn't mean I trust them. I don't trust a person cause I should. Beyond that, I'm very watchful for changes in their behaviour or attitude. I talk to them, and listen to them. That's the most a parent can do.

Please be careful if and how you do this if the time ever does arise.

I actually feel that the way your friends mother did is the worst way to handle it, which I'm sure you'll agree. Constant nagging, and preaching, and all always makes things worse. When I say I'd pray about it, that's about all I'd do. If one of my children were gay . . . well their are worse things. Like being a pedophile. I want my children to be happy adults. I don't necessarily think that homosexuality makes a person unhappy. I also don't think it makes them unsaved.

Unlike many Christians, I really don't see the fuss. I believe it's a sin, but I also believe that lying, coveting, and gossiping are sins. And unlike homosexuality, the three I just mentioned are in the ten commandments. I also don't think that someone's going to go to hell for sinning - if that were true no one would go to heaven. Especially me. lol The whole point of Christianity is that all you have to do to go to heaven is accept Jesus. THAT'S ALL. Unfortunately Christians want to add on restrictions. You have to accept christ, you can't be gay, you can't have odd body piercings, you have to (or can't) believe in the trinity. IT'S BULLSHIT! All you have to do is accept Jesus as your saviour. I would love to see anywhere (in the new testament) that says that you have to believe in any of the above to be saved. grr

Beyond that me and my seven year old have talked about things like homosexuality, extramarital sex, etc. She's smart, she's got eyes, and she's got questions. She asked what being gay meant, I said "It's when a man and a man or a woman and a woman have sex." (We've had the sex talk.) She said "Is that wrong?" I told her what I just said above. She nodded and has not asked questions since. My best friend and her boyfriend live together, and A spends the night over there all the time. She asked me if they were married. I said no, but that they love eachother very much. That was the end of that discussion. And just recently we discussed how you don't have to be married to get pregnant. I only answer questions as they're asked, though, cause that tells me that she's getting to the point of being able to understand.

As for being compassionate, that's one of my big things. I doubt anyone here will claim I'm not compassionate. I expect my children to be, too. If I catch them laughing at someone less fortunate, or being snotty we have a talk and their is normally a quiet time in their room out of it. I want them to think of people's feelings. Screw whether we should teach them to put on condoms or not; or if we should teach creation vs big bang. What the world needs is more laughter, compassion, and love, not one more person who's 'right'.

 

[graceanne]

Graceanne,

*hugs*

I want to reiterate what I said before. I respect your right to make these decisions for your own children.

In addition, I understand that you plan to teach them about birth control, etc. You will just teach them at a different time, and in a different way, from the way in which my children are taught.

Because this topic is critically important, I am compelled to correct the misinformation contained in this section of your post.

In my son's program, abstinence is discussed. It is presented as the ONLY 100% effective birth control method. Further, it is presented as the ONLY certain way to avoid STDs.

In addition, the message is not given that "children should do anything they want, as long as it 'feels right'." The presentation is very clinical - like a science class. Facts, terminology, effectiveness data, symptoms of disease, mortality rates, etc. must be learned and memorized. This is not a salacious conversation.

Contrary to the myth that learning about condoms will encourage every kid to rush out and go at it under the bleachers, the graphic information provided has a deterrent effect on their urges. My son comes home in disgust nearly every single day.

Don't believe me? Google "genital warts" images and let me know whether that puts you in the mood.

With respect,
Alice

I don't think that making condoms accessable will make kids more sexually active. I do think that showing pictures of genital warts might work for a day or two, and that's it. Teenagers generally think that they're invincible, and that 'will never happen to me'.

 

[FurryFury]

<snip> ditto

Beautiful Graceanne,

I respect your right to raise your kids anyway you want. I respect you. It doesn't matter when I think you are wrong I still respect you and your rights.

I have very good reasons and life experience to back up my feelings and so do you.

Thanks for the roses!

You are, as always, a classy lady.

Fury