How to write characters thinking

[sr71plt]

I think I better clarify the part of my question:
a) Is there a convention at all?

Yes. I cited it to you.

You can do what you wish, but the options given to you by the American industry convention (Chicago Manual of Style 16, 13-41) is a your choice: either straight roman font or placed in double quotes.

 

[cocput]

Is there anything else that can be used?

Or did i write it in the worst possible way?

Of late, I am having this issue of my characters thinking and talking together a lot.
I dont want to end up using too many quotes. I also dont want to write "I thought" a lot.


Can you give me examples in first person?

I mean, there is the narrative in which fp is using his own words. And then there is a thought in the narrative that the fp wants to express now.

 

[inflagranteloti]

Is there anything else that can be used?

The Chicago Manual of Style is a style guide -- which means it's only a guide, not the definitive word on grammar or style. If you feel comfortable writing thoughts in single quotes, then write them in single quotes. The real issues when using unconventional styles are consistency and clarity of meaning. But if you make sure you use single quotes for thoughts and double quotes for speech every time, then your readers won't be confused.

 

[sr71plt]

The Chicago Manual of Style is a style guide -- which means it's only a guide, not the definitive word on grammar or style. If you feel comfortable writing thoughts in single quotes, then write them in single quotes. The real issues when using unconventional styles are consistency and clarity of meaning. But if you make sure you use single quotes for thoughts and double quotes for speech every time, then your readers won't be confused.

Why is it that writers insist on doing their own thing on the basics?

The Chicago Manual of Style is a guide, yes. It, however, is the authority that most publishers in the American market (and many in the UK market) use as their RULES--rules that they make their editors follow over any objection by the author (with each house withholding a few exceptions to the CMS on this and that). Why is it too early to learn what the parameters are in your personal quirks in being published?

Again, when someone asks for best practice help, why in the hell don't we give them best practice answers rather than personal quirks? (The only reason I can think of is that ignorance prefers to foster ignorance.)

cocpit, you can, of course, denote thoughts by writing them upside down, if you wish--or any other way you could stuff them into a Lit. submissions box. It's your choice (limited only by Lit.'s option not to accept it).

 

[Innuendos]

Again, when someone asks for best practice help, why in the hell don't we give them best practice answers rather than personal quirks? (The only reason I can think of is that ignorance prefers to foster ignorance.)

cocpit, you can, of course, denote thoughts by writing them upside down, if you wish--or any other way you could stuff them into a Lit. submissions box. It's your choice (limited only by Lit.'s option not to accept it).

Because he asked for help, not "best practice" help, and when asked for help a kindly disposed writer either offers their expertise or their advice. Some of us don't have the expertise, and offer the latter instead. Not everyone's looking to publish, and quite frankly, if everyone's skills are as bad as you suggest they are, they're not ready to publish anyway, and a Guide won't change that.

There is nothing wrong with that, because unless I'm mistaken, this forum is not relegated to professional advice rendered solely by experts. If you're looking to establish yourself as that sole expert and authority, then I recommend contacting the site owner, getting permission, and establishing yourself as the sole editor of this sub-forum, subject to the rules you wish to be set down.

I will further point out that suggesting the purchase of a manual as a substitute for real education could also be considered "ignorance fostering ignorance."

But that's not the right, because it's about people helping each other out and offering advice. That's the 'why', the other thing you can't think of. Not all of us are here to parcel out advice with an imperious nod to our inferiors.

It's friendly advice, nothing more. When a person asks for expert advice, then I certainly will shut up, but until then, it's an open forum.

On a side note, I'll point out that despite my relatively amateurish advice, our suggestions were pretty much the same, with the exception of your insistence on relying on some sort of publishing authority.

 

[cocput]

Is there any place where I can read CMS online. I checked the first link in google search, and they expect me to have an account for reading it.

 

[inflagranteloti]

Why is it that writers insist on doing their own thing on the basics?

The Chicago Manual of Style is a guide, yes. It, however, is the authority that most publishers in the American market (and many in the UK market) use as their RULES--rules that they make their editors follow over any objection by the author (with each house withholding a few exceptions to the CMS on this and that). Why is it too early to learn what the parameters are in your personal quirks in being published?

Again, when someone asks for best practice help, why in the hell don't we give them best practice answers rather than personal quirks? (The only reason I can think of is that ignorance prefers to foster ignorance.)

cocpit, you can, of course, denote thoughts by writing them upside down, if you wish--or any other way you could stuff them into a Lit. submissions box. It's your choice (limited only by Lit.'s option not to accept it).

Wow, aggressive much? And I wasn't responding to you anyway, so there was no need for you to take my comment so personally. But from what I've seen of your behavior in the limited time I've been posting on the board, your thin skin seems to flare up at will.

FYI, I'm a professional technical editor, so spare me the lecture. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to fiction, though there should be a rule on the message boards never to engage with you.

/out

 

[Innuendos]

Is there any place where I can read CMS online. I checked the first link in google search, and they expect me to have an account for reading it.

Unless it's a pay-to-join service, just register a junk e-mail address with yahoo or hotmail and sign in. Otherwise, look for similar online resources that aren't pay to join. I don't know any off the top of my head, but you can probably find one through one of the many online source citation resources like knitecite.

If not, you could also try your local library; any library of worth will have a resource along those lines or a library loan program that can get it for you.

 

[cocput]

The real issues when using unconventional styles are consistency and clarity of meaning.

That is what I am worried about.

I can either dump the explicit use of thoughts, which seems to be a practical alternative. But then I will lose my train of thought.
Stand alone thoughts I can write whichever way I please, I don't have to really worry about conventions, as I will have enough options to do it.

I am more worried about juggling spoken words and thoughts.

 

[Innuendos]

That is what I am worried about.

I can either dump the explicit use of thoughts, which seems to be a practical alternative. But then I will lose my train of thought.
Stand alone thoughts I can write whichever way I please, I don't have to really worry about conventions, as I will have enough options to do it.

I am more worried about juggling spoken words and thoughts.

Despite the difference of opinions on authority, there's a consistent convention offered, and it's one you already made an example of, regarding thoughts and speech in the same paragraph.

"Gosh," the poet murmured aloud to his sleeping cat, "I really need a muse." The cat awoke, shooting him a malevolent glare for its interrupted sleep, then lay closed its eyes once more. Never awaken a sleeping beast, the poet thought with a wry grin.

The only difference between the speech and the thought is the lack of quotation marks. The rest remains the same, and is consistent with suggested practices. As long as you're denoting what you're doing with proper punctuation and referencing, the difference between author exposition and character thoughts should be clear enough.

 

[sr71plt]

Wow, aggressive much? And I wasn't responding to you anyway, so there was no need for you to take my comment so personally. But from what I've seen of your behavior in the limited time I've been posting on the board, your thin skin seems to flare up at will.

FYI, I'm a professional technical editor, so spare me the lecture. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to fiction, though there should be a rule on the message boards never to engage with you.

/out

No, frustrated. By "know it all but not really" writers.

You must not be an editor for publishers, then, because they turn guidelines into rules. They don't use willy-nilly styles across their book lines. They have hard-edged style rules--and in fiction, which is what we're discussing here, in the American system, the CMS is the base of nearly every humanities publisher's rules.

Even Lit. has some set style rules--and rejects stories not following them. I don't think internal discourse is in their realm of rules set, though.

cocput: if you are worried about how to distinguish thoughts from spoken dialogue in near proximity, I suggest you render thoughts in straight roman font, make clear in the syntax that it's a thought and render dialogue in double quotes. That's mostly how we're doing it in the real publishing world these days.

For Lit., you probably could use single quotes for thoughts, but if you submitted it for publication somewhere, those would come out. The American system only uses single quotes for quotes within quotes. The British system has other uses for single quotes. I don't know if your using it for thoughts will throw a British reader off or not.

 

[inflagranteloti]

Unless it's a pay-to-join service, just register a junk e-mail address with yahoo or hotmail and sign in. Otherwise, look for similar online resources that aren't pay to join. I don't know any off the top of my head, but you can probably find one through one of the many online source citation resources like knitecite.

If not, you could also try your local library; any library of worth will have a resource along those lines or a library loan program that can get it for you.

The CMS offers a one month free trial subscription, so that's one route to take. I have found the Purdue Online Writing Lab to be very helpful as well. The site's easy to navigate, and I'm pretty sure the advice is in keeping with the CMS.

 

[inflagranteloti]

No, frustrated. By "know it all but not really" writers.

You just can't help waving your ignorance around, can you? I've probably written as much as you have. I just haven't published it here or anywhere else under my username.

I could squawk like a parrot about the CMS, but I was trying to offer a different suggestion to cocput since they obviously didn't find your constant repetition of "use the CMS" to be very helpful.

And since when did writing for Literotica = writing for publication? If everyone writing here had to adhere to the standards required to get a piece of fiction published, the site would be mostly empty.

/seriously out this time

 

[sr71plt]

I'm done too. If cocput can't see the best practices answer to the question now, I don't think it was I who confused the issue.

Nor, once again, is it I who has drifted into personal attack.

 

[cocput]

Thank you for your responses.

 

[cocput]

An addendum:

It seems html tags for italics works in lit's submission. So that option is available again.

 

[PennLady]

You just can't help waving your ignorance around, can you? I've probably written as much as you have. I just haven't published it here or anywhere else under my username.

Um, so what? We all have stuff (well, most of us) that's not been posted or published for some reason or another. The mere existence of it doesn't mean we have any more experience in the field than anyone else.

I could squawk like a parrot about the CMS, but I was trying to offer a different suggestion to cocput since they obviously didn't find your constant repetition of "use the CMS" to be very helpful.

And since when did writing for Literotica = writing for publication? If everyone writing here had to adhere to the standards required to get a piece of fiction published, the site would be mostly empty.

/seriously out this time

Look, much as we may not like it, there are conventions, if not rules, for writing, even in fiction. It used to be that italics were used to render thoughts in stories; apparently that's no longer the case most places. That's nothing to attack one person about. If one is asking for style guidance, and is referred to the (or one of the) most commonly used, it's not the referrer's fault if the person doesn't like it.

I think we're using standards in the wrong way here. If you're talking quality, then I'd agree, there's nothing uniform there. I've seen some pretty bad stuff posted here. However, Lit does have standards or requirements on certain things, and following something like the CMS is likely going to help stay on the right side of those requirements.

 

[lovecraft68]

You just can't help waving your ignorance around, can you? I've probably written as much as you have. I just haven't published it here or anywhere else under my username.

I could squawk like a parrot about the CMS, but I was trying to offer a different suggestion to cocput since they obviously didn't find your constant repetition of "use the CMS" to be very helpful.

And since when did writing for Literotica = writing for publication? If everyone writing here had to adhere to the standards required to get a piece of fiction published, the site would be mostly empty.

/seriously out this time

Oh look Pilot has made another friend. I like the parrot comment, very fitting.

I agree that if you're pretty much limiting yourself to having some fun on Lit then you can go off the beaten path, it shouldn't matter much. As far as I know that's what was being discussed here, but as always the "real world" author has to try to pick on the newbs.

Try not to fault Pilot for that. This is a direct result of not being good enough to hang with other "real world" authors so he comes here where he thinks he's something.

And boy oh boy is he something

 

[inflagranteloti]

Pennlady:

Did you actually read the entire thread or just my post? Because the things you pointed out in my post were direct references to things that sr71pt posted in response to me. I suggest you do a little investigation before you go calling people out for "attacking" someone. Sr71pt cast the first stone:

Again, when someone asks for best practice help, why in the hell don't we give them best practice answers rather than personal quirks? (The only reason I can think of is that ignorance prefers to foster ignorance.)

In case you didn't realize, cocput is a non-native English speaker. So suggesting that they rigidly adhere to CMS guidelines might not be the best tack. I've done a lot of editing for writers of all skill levels, and sometimes you have to match your advice with what the writer is capable of grasping and incorporating into their writing.

 

[sr71plt]

My first posted response (post #2) gave three options, two of them sanctioned by the authorities of fiction writing in at least the American style, and the third one that's in common practice, although not sanctioned by the industry authority. From there the thread disintegrated in unsubstantiated claims and personal quirking. To the extent that cocput didn't receive options or became confused, it wasn't me who did it. Nor was it me who started specifically targeted name calling.

 

[cocput]

Look, much as we may not like it, there are conventions, if not rules, for writing, even in fiction. It used to be that italics were used to render thoughts in stories; apparently that's no longer the case most places.

As a newbie, I definitely liked to know about the existence of style guides like CMS. But as sr71plt has already mentioned it, CMS is an American style guide. I would like to know whether there are any British style guides. CMS doesn't work for me because i cannot get it.

I think we're using standards in the wrong way here. If you're talking quality, then I'd agree, there's nothing uniform there.... However, Lit does have standards or requirements on certain things, and following something like the CMS is likely going to help stay on the right side of those requirements.

I think, there is need for a full detailed section on Lit. Style Guide. For new people like me, it is easier to to look at one document than scan through a lot of how-to to get our doubts cleared.

 

[PennLady]

In case you didn't realize, cocput is a non-native English speaker. So suggesting that they rigidly adhere to CMS guidelines might not be the best tack. I've done a lot of editing for writers of all skill levels, and sometimes you have to match your advice with what the writer is capable of grasping and incorporating into their writing.

I did not realize at first that cocput was not a native English speaker. In that case, cocput (who obviously has internet access) should search for a British writing style guide.

As a newbie, I definitely liked to know about the existence of style guides like CMS. But as sr71plt has already mentioned it, CMS is an American style guide. I would like to know whether there are any British style guides. CMS doesn't work for me because i cannot get it.

Okay, I know the feeling. I don't use the CMS online b/c I'm not willing to pay the subscription fee. However, if you were to search online for writing style guides, American or British, I'm sure you'd find much the same information. And there's plenty out there.

I googled "british writing style guide" and found this at the University at Oxford, and this section for non-native English speakers at about.com.

You may still want to check American-based style guides (just search for "American writing style guides" or something like that) since Literotica is a US-based site. I'm not sure how many differences there are, really, in the styles; the most prominent one I know of is that the US uses double quotes for spoken dialogue and the UK uses single.

So there, specific examples. Also, if you go to Lit's own page here, there are links to style guides and other things.

I think, there is need for a full detailed section on Lit. Style Guide. For new people like me, it is easier to to look at one document than scan through a lot of how-to to get our doubts cleared.

And I've provided links to some above. It's not really Lit's responsibility to make a style guide. There's lots of info in their FAQ and there they lay out the basic requirements.

 

[cocput]

Thank you for your responses.

My apologies for not mentioning that I am "non-native English speaker" earlier. I thought that it was irrelevant, as I was pretty much sure there must be a rule somewhere like the rule for using the punctuation marks. Moreover, it feels like somebody called an African-American "nigger". Just because my mother tongue happens to be something else doesn't mean that I do not think in English.(I think I ended up sounding rude, but fact is a fact.)

I think I better clarify the part of my question:
a) Is there a convention at all?
And I got 4 options.
b) How do authors/editors prefer looking at this in literotica?

The original intention of my first post was to know what people usually used. The discussion on characters thinking in other parts were focused on avoiding writing thoughts, rather then enabling a writer to write those things. So when I was faced with the problem, my newbie logic said, if most people did it one way, then it must be the correct way. I hadn't expected things to grow this much beyond my first reply. I never knew that there is a difference between American and English style guides, until the whole off-topic discussion on CMS came into the thread.


The problem with the style is indicated in the example given in my second post. (post number 25)
I am just reproducing a part of it for clarity.
option 1: I used tags and double quote:

Alice turned towards Bob and asked, "Bob, do you want me to make some cookies for you?"​

"No, Ms. Alice," he tried to say while he was thinking, "Oh God! She has such nice jugs." "I just had food in my home."​

option 2: I used tags and without quotes:

Alice turned towards Bob and asked, "Bob, do you want me to make some cookies for you?"​

"No, Ms. Alice," he tried to say while he was thinking, Oh God! She has such nice jugs. "I just had food in my home."​

option 3(obsolete, though compelling): To add to it, the example with the older style.The same example using italics is slightly less ambiguous.

Alice turned towards Bob and asked, "Bob, do you want me to make some cookies for you?"​

"No, Ms. Alice," he tried to say while he was thinking, Oh God! She has such nice jugs. "I just had food in my home."​

If I use double quotes, then I cannot freely juggle between thoughts and words. It is easier to overlook the repeating double quote. If there are characters in the line above, then sometimes I may miss the two double quotes altogether, assuming that the author put a few extra spaces.
In the second example, there is ambiguity about She has such nice jugs. How does a reader know whether the narrator or Bob was telling those words.
As an amateur it is easy for me to convince myself that third option is the correct method, since the writer will feel the difference.

I thought I was making some basic mistake with the two accepted styles.

You may still want to check American-based style guides ... since Literotica is a US-based site.

I am sorry, I was not aware of that.

It's not really Lit's responsibility to make a style guide. There's lots of info in their FAQ and there they lay out the basic requirements.

I was only peeving, because thinks started getting a lot more confusing. I haven't thought about all these complex things till I started writing a few weeks ago.
I think that once I learn enough, I will write one for amateurs like me.

Thank you for your responses. It had been a great learning experience for me.

 

[PennLady]

My apologies for not mentioning that I am "non-native English speaker" earlier. I thought that it was irrelevant, as I was pretty much sure there must be a rule somewhere like the rule for using the punctuation marks. Moreover, it feels like somebody called an African-American "nigger". Just because my mother tongue happens to be something else doesn't mean that I do not think in English.(I think I ended up sounding rude, but fact is a fact.)

I have no idea why you'd think that identifying yourself as a non-native English speaker -- or having someone else do so -- is any kind of insult. It certainly does not equate to nigger or any other ethnic slur. If your mother tongue is not English, then why would you think in English? I mean, fine if you do, but this makes no sense. Being a non-native English speaker is neutral.

The original intention of my first post was to know what people usually used. The discussion on characters thinking in other parts were focused on avoiding writing thoughts, rather then enabling a writer to write those things. So when I was faced with the problem, my newbie logic said, if most people did it one way, then it must be the correct way. I hadn't expected things to grow this much beyond my first reply. I never knew that there is a difference between American and English style guides, until the whole off-topic discussion on CMS came into the thread.

On the internet, pretty much any thread takes on a life of its own, often away from the original post. Your logic is understandable, but flawed. Tons of people say things like "between you and I," which is wrong -- it's "between you and me." So just because a lot of people do that, doesn't make it right. It might become widely accepted, but it's not (necessarily) correct.

And it's not so unreasonable that any style guide -- CMS, Associated Press, Strunk and White, etc. -- would be mentioned in a thread that is basically asking what the style is to convey a certain type of information.

option 3(obsolete, though compelling): To add to it, the example with the older style.The same example using italics is slightly less ambiguous.

Alice turned towards Bob and asked, "Bob, do you want me to make some cookies for you?"​

"No, Ms. Alice," he tried to say while he was thinking, Oh God! She has such nice jugs. "I just had food in my home."​

This is definitely what I'd prefer to do, and would probably write myself, but again, that doesn't mean it's correct. Another option is to just find another way to write it.

Alice turned towards Bob and asked, "Bob, do you want me to make some cookies for you?"​

"No, Ms. Alice." Bob tried not to dwell on her huge breasts. "Thank you, though."​

That's just a suggestion, there are better ways. If the style isn't working for you, you're free to find alternative wording.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

AFAIK, the site doesn't allow authors to upload with italics tags in text,…

Actually, it does; I do it all the time. I use a text editor and submit in unwrapped text, so that each paragraph appears as a single line in the file I'm going to submit. I separate paragraphs with blank lines. (I don't write in that format—I do use the text editor, but I have it wrap while I'm writing and then unwrap just before submitting.)

Use the HTML tags: <i> and </i>. If you want whole paragraphs in italics, write short paragraphs (Lit. seems to avoid splitting paragraphs across pages, but who knows what it might do with a long one), and embed each paragraph in a pair of tags. Where you're asking for trouble is if you have two adjacent paragraphs in italics and use only one set of tags that encompasses both. If a page break appears between the two paragraphs, things go wrong.