Humiliation and Respect

[faeriefire]

so why start with humiliation?

Ok...this is making more sense on some levels. I guess what I wonder now is this: (first one's not my ? but deserves asking)

1) Why post a personal ad asking for someone to humiliate you without also requesting the trust building get-to-know-you bit first? If you look the current trends in the personals many women are requesting humiliation play from complete strangers (esp. 'piggy girl' OMG).

The post from the 'Dom in my head' guy asking for advice how to dominate his lady 'sub in her head' when neither seem educated Why are people attracted to humiliation play even without the intimacy or knowledge of how bad it can get or understanding what it even looks like?

What does it do to someone's head if they jump into humiliation 'play' without having that bond of love and respect like most people here have experienced?

Also, a big thank you to everyone who's posted thus far. It's helped me get a bit more of a handle on humiliation or rather how ambiguous my definition has been up to this point (time to dig up my dictionary again) I find it interesting that different people have different takes on what humiliation really is and also how dependent it is on the partner's perspective of the act as humiliating. A big thank you to one and all.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ok...this is making more sense on some levels. I guess what I wonder now is this: (first one's not my ? but deserves asking)

1) Why post a personal ad asking for someone to humiliate you without also requesting the trust building get-to-know-you bit first? If you look the current trends in the personals many women are requesting humiliation play from complete strangers (esp. 'piggy girl' OMG).

The post from the 'Dom in my head' guy asking for advice how to dominate his lady 'sub in her head' when neither seem educated Why are people attracted to humiliation play even without the intimacy or knowledge of how bad it can get or understanding what it even looks like?

What does it do to someone's head if they jump into humiliation 'play' without having that bond of love and respect like most people here have experienced?

Also, a big thank you to everyone who's posted thus far. It's helped me get a bit more of a handle on humiliation or rather how ambiguous my definition has been up to this point (time to dig up my dictionary again) I find it interesting that different people have different takes on what humiliation really is and also how dependent it is on the partner's perspective of the act as humiliating. A big thank you to one and all.

Posting and asking for humiliation may mean that is one of the things they hope to explore and experience in a relationship, thus letting similar minded people know so they might reply. Can be disastrous to get into a relationship with someone and find out once more involved they do not share the same goals etc. You can discuss it in the first few discussions, but if it is something you know before hand you wish to have in the relationship, letting others reading your personal ad know upfront can minimise the number of replies that are not going to work. Of course there might still be a lot to wade through, but imagine how many more there might be if all someone says is they are sub and looking for a Dom/me?

Catalina

 

[faeriefire]

Hmmm...makes sense. Do you think it is effective as intented? Personally wonder if I posted something along those lines if I would attract people who were actually a good fit or if I would be more likely to attract someone abusive. Personal bias says I like the idea of getting to know someone non-sexually and then exploring sexuality once trust is built on a (shall I say) vanilla foundation. Perhaps the newbie in me

Thank you Catalina for the perspective tho...it's good to see it as complete straightforward honesty and being direct about ones needs. Before was thinking more along the lines of desperation and your words help me see personal bias in a clear light...still there and present in me, but also understand now. Thank you.

 

[Homburg]

I am very careful with verbal humiliation. I'm fine with physical humiliation, and enjoy it quite a bit. Putting a bottom into a position where she cannot help but feel exposed, careful public play, asking her to do all sort and manner of things she finds horrible, etc. But just calling her a stupid cow? Not bloody likely. Words like cunt, slut, whore, etc, sure, but I don't get into the demeaning things like that.

Now to point out something Netz said previously, the "Oh, you just think you are so smart, don't you?" That sort of headfuck is hot. Calling someone like that a dolt/idiot/whatever would dull me.

Example of a scene element that just fired me up insanely:

I'd just finished fucking Bottom X absolutely senseless on the dirty concrete floor of my garage. That by itself was hot, as she is on cold, gritty concrete, and feeling dirty to begin with. I finish, and stand up to clean myself off. She is laying there simply destroyed, and winds up leaking cum and her own juices onto the concrete. Again, humiliating and arousing, and she blushed red when I told her. Once she recovered enough to move, I told her "You've made an awful mess. You should clean it up." When she asked for a towel, I shook my head no and smiled. Watching her lick the concrete clean, with me providing a few comments on the quality of the job, was intensely arousing. Had I not just finished, I would've fucked her again on the spot.

 

[KinkyKiki7]

Like Velvet, I too used to be very worried about this. When my Master and I started it really didn't take much to make me feel worthless/humiliated. The names he would call me, the way he would make me crawl on the floor, the spankings, would usually make me cry and break down. He would then hold me and tell me it was okay and stuff. Eventually the crying didn't get me out of it as he was trying to stretch my limits. Now, he can call me names or spank me and I know that it means nothing- it's a facade. Once the role play is done it's over. More importantly, I am his girl before anything and he truly loves me.

 

[ownedsubgal]

general reply to no one in particular, but i've never understood the whole humiliation-as-roleplay thing. to me, if it doesn't have some basis in reality and truth, then what's the point and how is it actually humiliation?

when my Master subjects me to humiliation....whether verbal or physical, public or private....the humiliation, the humbling actually comes from the fact that it's all truth. He's not playing a game or putting on a show or "scene", he's just telling it like it is because he feels that for whatever reason at that moment i need to be brought down a notch or two and reminded of my place.
the way Netzach described the type of humiliation men typically go for...of how it has to really get inside them, at their core...that's how i have always experienced and understood humiliation. the only difference really would be that for me an exercise in humiliation is not horny sexy fun, so much as a dose of medicine that tastes yucky going down but will have me feeling better when i wake up in the morning.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmm...makes sense. Do you think it is effective as intented? Personally wonder if I posted something along those lines if I would attract people who were actually a good fit or if I would be more likely to attract someone abusive. Personal bias says I like the idea of getting to know someone non-sexually and then exploring sexuality once trust is built on a (shall I say) vanilla foundation. Perhaps the newbie in me

Thank you Catalina for the perspective tho...it's good to see it as complete straightforward honesty and being direct about ones needs. Before was thinking more along the lines of desperation and your words help me see personal bias in a clear light...still there and present in me, but also understand now. Thank you.

LOL, you're welcome. I'm a bit boring in that I am direct and honest and that was one of the things which both attracted and scared off people while I was searching. I found it amusing, but also a little frustrating, that so many of them would be trying to psycho analyse what I wrote/said to find the 'real' message behind the words....duh, there was only one real message behind the words, the same one the words delivered in plain english. Is just the way I am.

Catalina

 

[faeriefire]

so how much is humiliation about objectifying the sub as opposed to getting inside one person's head and pushing their specific buttons?

A few subs mentioned being an object or a master using words like 'slut, whore, etc' and I feel like Homburgs example of the sub on the floor was very much about her being an object that could be used. Did I misunderstand?

Homburg...what does the scene in the garage do to her sense of self-respect? Does a sub's sense of self matter to the Dom?

On more point of confusion...BiBunny said respect doesn't really have anything to do with it. To humiliate me like I need to be humiliated requires someone to spend enough time getting to know me that I assume they at least care about me in a perfunctory way It seems contradictory that they have to care enough to know you deeply and yet you have to think they don't care. Don't they already value you immensely if they've taken the time to learn so much?

Or are caring and respect different animals?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Or are caring and respect different animals?

My answer to that one would be IMO I think you can respect someone without necessarily caring about them on a personal level(eg. respect for a boss; respect for a politician; respect for a minister etc.), but I don't think you can care about someone without having some level of respect for them, at least not in personal relationships. I also think there are some who get into relationships with people they do not respect which often reflects their own self image, how they see themselves and view what they are worthy or deserving of. In some ways it can ba a way to sabotage a relationship, or to punish themselves for the qualities they feel they lack. Respect also is a strange thing in that while someone may appear to not respect another in this lifestyle, it can be more a matter of how they conduct the relationship, what is shown to the outside world, and what both people want from the relationship and visible demonstrations of particular emotions.


Catalina

 

[Netzach]

general reply to no one in particular, but i've never understood the whole humiliation-as-roleplay thing. to me, if it doesn't have some basis in reality and truth, then what's the point and how is it actually humiliation?

when my Master subjects me to humiliation....whether verbal or physical, public or private....the humiliation, the humbling actually comes from the fact that it's all truth. He's not playing a game or putting on a show or "scene", he's just telling it like it is because he feels that for whatever reason at that moment i need to be brought down a notch or two and reminded of my place.
the way Netzach described the type of humiliation men typically go for...of how it has to really get inside them, at their core...that's how i have always experienced and understood humiliation. the only difference really would be that for me an exercise in humiliation is not horny sexy fun, so much as a dose of medicine that tastes yucky going down but will have me feeling better when i wake up in the morning.

H is like this - it's horny-making sometimes, definitely, but it's not "fun" in the moment, the eroticism if any is usually in the recall, the moment itself is pure torture and he does it for me and that's the saving grace.

Do I really think he's an impotent self righteous boomer walking cliche wuss?

Yes. I've never called him a name I didn't believe applied on some level. I don't do that game at all, actually. Even with clients "Oh you want me to call you a fag - but you're NOT a fag, a fag just gets up and sucks some dick, no big deal to him, YOU are a FREAK. YOU need to suck some dick and then tell someone like ME about it."

Do I really think he's brilliant and funny and charming and fun to be around?

Yes.

I find my relationship there to be too complicated to break down to just "respect" or "derision" - it runs a very full gamut and it's full of contradictory feeling and opinion. I'm not doing my job if he doesn't lovehatefear me back.

 

[Homburg]

so how much is humiliation about objectifying the sub as opposed to getting inside one person's head and pushing their specific buttons?

A few subs mentioned being an object or a master using words like 'slut, whore, etc' and I feel like Homburgs example of the sub on the floor was very much about her being an object that could be used. Did I misunderstand?

Tough to answer that question. In that exact moment, I was not thinking "Ah, yes, this will objectify and dehumanise her". I was thinking, "Oh my, messy. She'll need to clean that up. Oh, even better, she'll need to lick that up. Damn, that's hot. Definitely needs to lick it up" etc. It was not some finely calculated maneuver with the intent of making Bottom X feel like a subhuman worm. It was a move designed and intended to entertain me with an extremely hot visual, and make her decide, yet again, if she means it when she says she is submitting to me for that scene.

I am not really trying to teach a lesson there. It's use, pure and simple. She did what I wanted, and I wanted something nasty and dirty. I know that Bottom X gets off on that feeling too, so I knew she would enjoy it, as well as the idea that she would enjoy being "forced" to do it.

In this case, it is more a matter of knowing your bottom than anything else, so I would say that it is getting inside her head. Objectification occurred to an extent, but that was not the goal. If I wanted to objectify, I would do it differently.

Homburg...what does the scene in the garage do to her sense of self-respect? Does a sub's sense of self matter to the Dom?

In that moment, Bottom X felt incredibly low and ashamed. She was also incredibly turned on. Abject debasement does it for her (and others, as I've received a few private communiques regarding that post). In that moment, she felt dirty and used, whorish, etc. After it was done, a few choice comments were made. Not insulting, but lightly mocking. She couldn't help but grin and, at that moment, there was a flash of many emotions from Bottom X. Good stuff. I love mixed emotions when their accompanied by service regardless.

After the scene had fully ended, she was told that she did well, and we went back to our usual relationship. She does not struggle with those sorts of things after the fact because Bottom X accepts her nature.

On more point of confusion...BiBunny said respect doesn't really have anything to do with it. To humiliate me like I need to be humiliated requires someone to spend enough time getting to know me that I assume they at least care about me in a perfunctory way It seems contradictory that they have to care enough to know you deeply and yet you have to think they don't care. Don't they already value you immensely if they've taken the time to learn so much?

Or are caring and respect different animals?

Goodness, no. I've taken the time to get to know people I despise, simply so that I can better deal with them, confound them, and handle their movements. I've taken the time to get to know people that I don't care about, but are interesting or useful people. Do you care about your employer? Have you taken time to get to know your employer? Or co-workers? Or anyone else you may have a strictly professional, non-caring relationship with?

I generally won't do humiliation play with someone unless I know them well, and I care about them. There are elements of humiliation in any scene, and some humiliation play will happen as part and parcel of bottoming, but I'm not going to make someone lick jizz off the floor unless I know that this someone will get off on the idea, and that I care enough about them to care for them afterwards, should they require it.

 

[faeriefire]

thank you

Hi Homburg...thank you for explaining. It is helpful to see the Dom's perspective. I probably still see most things through 'nilla eyes and it is good to understand the motivation behind humiliation from one who has been involved in the lifestyle IRL. I believe that in reading the scene my reaction was part fascination and part screw-up-the-face 'yuck, ewe' don't think I could ever do that But then I talked with someone who explained a little better what it does for a woman to be there. I really like the bit about sub X not being confused b/c she accepts her nature. For me, first need to figure out what 'my nature' entails and internalize it, accept it, revel in being me. Interesting...more hw for me Thank you tho for making me think

 

[Homburg]

Hi Homburg...thank you for explaining. It is helpful to see the Dom's perspective. I probably still see most things through 'nilla eyes and it is good to understand the motivation behind humiliation from one who has been involved in the lifestyle IRL. I believe that in reading the scene my reaction was part fascination and part screw-up-the-face 'yuck, ewe' don't think I could ever do that But then I talked with someone who explained a little better what it does for a woman to be there. I really like the bit about sub X not being confused b/c she accepts her nature. For me, first need to figure out what 'my nature' entails and internalize it, accept it, revel in being me. Interesting...more hw for me Thank you tho for making me think

Yes, I can't really explain what it does to her, as I'm not inside her. I can explain what I see, and what I feel, so I gave my perspective, and hoped that it gave some insight into what she was feeling.

The nature is the thing. Bottom X's nature is such that she will do such things to please me, to serve me, because t is her place, and her need. And, honestly, I doubt she would do that for just anyone. We have INTENSE trust for each other, and rock-solid emotional connection.

You're welcome. It was useful for me to talk about it as well, as verbalising it helped me to realise a few things about it.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

general reply to no one in particular, but i've never understood the whole humiliation-as-roleplay thing. to me, if it doesn't have some basis in reality and truth, then what's the point and how is it actually humiliation?

when my Master subjects me to humiliation....whether verbal or physical, public or private....the humiliation, the humbling actually comes from the fact that it's all truth. He's not playing a game or putting on a show or "scene", he's just telling it like it is because he feels that for whatever reason at that moment i need to be brought down a notch or two and reminded of my place.
the way Netzach described the type of humiliation men typically go for...of how it has to really get inside them, at their core...that's how i have always experienced and understood humiliation. the only difference really would be that for me an exercise in humiliation is not horny sexy fun, so much as a dose of medicine that tastes yucky going down but will have me feeling better when i wake up in the morning.

I know you weren't directing this at anybody but it has made me think.

I don't feel that any part of our dynamic is false. I guess I didn't choose wisely when I called Master's nasty face a facade.

I'm much more certain of where I stand with Master than I used to be and the example I gave before was from when we were first starting out with humiliation play. I do need a bit of reassurance when we try new things or push boundaries. It was a side to him that I hadn't seen before but it was still a facet of his personality. Like Netz said, everything he says to me at these times is true. I know he means them. I also know that he values me as a slave.

He does actually mean most of the things he says and it wouldn't have any effect on me if there was no truth to his words but there are also times when he throws shit at me to make me feel more vulnerable and expendable. He once told me that I'd never experience another dick and that one day he'd choke me till I died so that I'd never belong to anyone else. I don't actually believe that one day he'll get bored of my service and throttle me with his cock.

*nervous laugh*

So I guess if I had to give it as a percentage I'd say that with verbal stuff, 90% is true and 10% is whatever crosses his powerdrunk mind. At that time and in that scene or whatever, I am his filthy, worthless little whore and he will do whatever the hell he likes to me. There is nothing that I won't do if I'm commanded to because I no longer have the right to refuse him (within the limits of sanity and the law I'm not having another 'what if he told you to kill someone?' thread kick off here.)

So I don't feel that he's any less sincere when he humiliates me, I just know it's a face that he doesn't choose to wear all the time.

Hope that made sense.

 

[intothewoods]

Thanks for the explanation, Velvet. I have a hard time coming up with anything. I've had vanilla friends ask, are you just roleplaying all the time then? No, I'm really not. I think it's more that we feel we're in a safe space to explore different feelings and parts of ourselves.

 

[faeriefire]

gradual progression

hmmm...actually this is really interesting. The idea of doing more and more over time. Because I could see how someone might get into a sub's head and use that. I've spoken with a sub recently who had a bad first experience because Master kept asking for more and more, using trust to the point of going past boundaries. And the sub loved it but was also left feeling empty. My initial reaction was, well why stay in an abusive relationship? But this friend explained how was possible to get something out of it and even miss the pleasure received in spite of the emotional hurt and betrayed trust. A Dom I met here explained how trust can be cultivated and that we have to be careful to stay true to ourselves. ie I may want to do something for Him that I would not do otherwise b/c pleasing Him is an affirmation for me. But if he does not know the limits or hold to them He could damage me by being irresponsible or selfishly taking everything, leaving behind a husk. There is a lot of responsibility inherent in a D/s relationship on both sides. It seems being safe really does start with total communication and working up the ladder slowly...*pondering*. Velvet, thank you for explaining about the gradual building of trust in your relationship. That makes a lot of sense to me

 

[YourCaptor]

so how much is humiliation about objectifying the sub as opposed to getting inside one person's head and pushing their specific buttons?

A few subs mentioned being an object or a master using words like 'slut, whore, etc' and I feel like Homburgs example of the sub on the floor was very much about her being an object that could be used. Did I misunderstand?

Homburg...what does the scene in the garage do to her sense of self-respect? Does a sub's sense of self matter to the Dom?

On more point of confusion...BiBunny said respect doesn't really have anything to do with it. To humiliate me like I need to be humiliated requires someone to spend enough time getting to know me that I assume they at least care about me in a perfunctory way It seems contradictory that they have to care enough to know you deeply and yet you have to think they don't care. Don't they already value you immensely if they've taken the time to learn so much?

Or are caring and respect different animals?

Well, you can talk about this all you want and not get anywhere, but if you ever experience it, then it will all click into place.

With my girl humiliation was ridiculously easy. She was one of those that loved to talk a lot, and of course, if you talk that much you are bound to say something stupid. In her case she would often tell really dumb stories about what happened to her. All I did was say, “and you’re proud of that?”, she would shut up, frown, and sort of shrink down. Sometimes I would let her wallow in her misery for however long I decided, but in the end I would always take her close and make sure she knew what just happened.

The point, I think, was to diminish her pride a bit. I would make sure her respect was not affected, but her pride was in the wrong place, so I shifted it around a little.

I’m not sure, but I think most doms humiliated to keep their sub on their toes. Don’t let them revel in something too much if you aren’t getting anything out of it, or think it’s not proper.

 

[Homburg]

I’m not sure, but I think most doms humiliated to keep their sub on their toes. Don’t let them revel in something too much if you aren’t getting anything out of it, or think it’s not proper.

Eh, I do it because it's hot, and I enjoy it. My gal knows her place. Constantly reminding her of it is a non-starter for me. There's just no point to it.

And, as an aside, I spoke with Bottom X, and told her that I'd related the story in this thread. Wow, instant embarrassment, instant, and potent, arousal. One of the joys of humiliation play is that it is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Pure]

note to your captor.

yc Sometimes I would let her wallow in her misery for however long I decided, but in the end I would always take her close and make sure she knew what just happened.

The point, I think, was to diminish her pride a bit. I would make sure her respect was not affected, but her pride was in the wrong place, so I shifted it around a little.
---

p: having lived a bit on both sides of this, i would say the following. the bottom necessarily leaves it to the master to determine not only if pride is 'in the wrong place', but if respect (i.e. self respect) is founded on the wrong basis. the bottom has learned about such (wrong) foundation from the master's work with the psychological scalpel. the capability to rectify it, and the master's readiness to 'work through,' her willingness to savage (ill founded) respect and continue toward a better outcome, is another matter. the master is not obliged to attain properly therapeutic goals.

 

[faeriefire]

cerrando la puerta

unless it takes off on it's own I'll let this thread fade out, but first wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted or PM'd a response. I feel much more comfortable with this topic and really enjoyed your perspectives. If there's anything to add feel free...for me I think it now makes sense in my head. What I learned:

humiliation play between people who know each other deeply and have built up trust can bring them very close and be a beautiful expression of their commitment to each other

humiliation means something different to every person and may be influenced by gender

it is possible to be hurt badly but also to be affirmed and to be validated by being the one to humiliate or the one to act with humility

Homburg has a twisted, sadistic mind and an excellent imagination Tell your lady X we're always willing to hear about her if brings pleasure to you both.

Good night, and again, thank you.

 

[Homburg]

Homburg has a twisted, sadistic mind and an excellent imagination Tell your lady X we're always willing to hear about her if brings pleasure to you both.

Thank you

In this case, I used the phrase "bottom X" on purpose. With something like this, I'm not interested in identifying who precisely I was playing with in this scene. Though with this sort of scene, it is a rather short list

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Before this thread wanders off, I wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted; it's been illuminating for me to read the various ideas here.

I do have a couple of questions that might spark a few more opinions. They're really two scenarios, and I'm interested in the take folks might have on what my role might be.

I don't really do humiliation as such; it's just not my style so I've never really considered trying to pull it off. But I have a very dear friend with whom I may someday get a chance to play, and the sorts of things he's described are focused at least in part on humiliation - most of it would be the more action-oriented "You are just a hole for me" that's been described as opposed to the verbal forms.

I would love to go there with him, but as I say, it would be hard to be truly authentic since my style is to do really heinous things to people but to coax, to manipulate, to hypnotize, to do so in total affection the whole time. Maybe I still don't understand the "head" a dom is able to create that allows a true humiliating objectification of a beloved person. So maybe the question is, are there doms who have worked outside their own philosophies in this area, and if so, how did that work for you, and for the person you were playing with?

second scenario *** no longer important ***

just some further thoughts, and let me say again how much I've appreciated the illumination in this thread.

bijou

 

[Homburg]

Before this thread wanders off, I wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted; it's been illuminating for me to read the various ideas here.

I do have a couple of questions that might spark a few more opinions. They're really two scenarios, and I'm interested in the take folks might have on what my role might be.

I don't really do humiliation as such; it's just not my style so I've never really considered trying to pull it off. But I have a very dear friend with whom I may someday get a chance to play, and the sorts of things he's described are focused at least in part on humiliation - most of it would be the more action-oriented "You are just a hole for me" that's been described as opposed to the verbal forms.

I would love to go there with him, but as I say, it would be hard to be truly authentic since my style is to do really heinous things to people but to coax, to manipulate, to hypnotize, to do so in total affection the whole time. Maybe I still don't understand the "head" a dom is able to create that allows a true humiliating objectification of a beloved person. So maybe the question is, are there doms who have worked outside their own philosophies in this area, and if so, how did that work for you, and for the person you were playing with?

Absolutely. As I've said before, humiliation is a touchy subject when dealing with a bottom that you are not familiar with. This is why I tend not to do humiliation play casually (beyond certain physical humiliations virtually inherent to bottoming such as kneeling, etc).

If a bottom describes really enjoying a given activity, and it is not something I find abhorrent, I may consider doing it. The consideration would ential an examination of my opinion regarding the act, and the relative emotional worth of the bottom to me. If the bottom is a friends, and has done right by me in the past, I will be more inclined to do something that I find sorta meh, and think of it as a reward for the bottom.

If I find it objectionable, it isn't likely to happen at all.

second scenario, far more dangerous. What if I knew a bottom that I truly and genuinely disliked, on a personal level? Let's say I could truly and genuinely get off on tearing him/herm to bits, both physically and emotionally. Let's also assume that the actual actions are totally within the normal bounds of what this person would go for. And let's pretend I meet herm at a play party.

Fuck aftercare. I'd like to leave this person shivering in the dust. Permanently. Is it even vaguely okay that I think about doing that? And given the (extraordinarily unlikely) possibility that that could happen, what would folks in here do? Go for it or not?

just some further thoughts, and let me say again how much I've appreciated the illumination in this thread.

bijou

"An ye cause no harm..."

Not up with the idea of permamence. And, honestly, not really up with the idea of using scening, especially in public, as a tool to destroy someone or get revenge for a slight. In the first place, purposeful intent to harm has no place in BDSM. Harm, in this case, is defined as non-consensual injury. This falls under that heading. In the second place, the other folks who are at that party have consented to witness scening, else they not be there, but they've not consented to that level of scene. You risk being (justifiably) censured by your peers.

 

[myinnerslut]

second scenario, far more dangerous. What if I knew a bottom that I truly and genuinely disliked, on a personal level? Let's say I could truly and genuinely get off on tearing him/herm to bits, both physically and emotionally. Let's also assume that the actual actions are totally within the normal bounds of what this person would go for. And let's pretend I meet herm at a play party.

Fuck aftercare. I'd like to leave this person shivering in the dust. Permanently. Is it even vaguely okay that I think about doing that? And given the (extraordinarily unlikely) possibility that that could happen, what would folks in here do? Go for it or not?

just some further thoughts, and let me say again how much I've appreciated the illumination in this thread.

bijou

safe. sane. consensual.

assuming the pyl knows the extent of damage you intend to do followed by leaving him/her in the dust and still agrees, i guess you have consensual.

sane is debatable, dependinng on your definition of sanity. considering real life consiquences like the opinions from those watching, your reputation, and possible medical or legal issues from injuries sustained that you didnt check for, i would say not sane.

safe, absolutly not. whether or not what happened was within the realm of what the pyl could take, intending to harm some somebody that way just doesnt seem safe to me.

 

[Pure]

UB: //second scenario, far more dangerous. What if I knew a bottom that I truly and genuinely disliked, on a personal level? Let's say I could truly and genuinely get off on tearing him/herm to bits, both physically and emotionally. Let's also assume that the actual actions are totally within the normal bounds of what this person would go for. And let's pretend I meet herm at a play party.

Fuck aftercare. I'd like to leave this person shivering in the dust. Permanently. Is it even vaguely okay that I think about doing that? And given the (extraordinarily unlikely) possibility that that could happen, what would folks in here do? Go for it or not?

just some further thoughts, and let me say again how much I've appreciated the illumination in this thread.

bijou //

Hmburg: "An ye cause no harm..."

Not up with the idea of permamence. And, honestly, not really up with the idea of using scening, especially in public, as a tool to destroy someone or get revenge for a slight. In the first place, purposeful intent to harm has no place in BDSM. Harm, in this case, is defined as non-consensual injury. This falls under that heading. In the second place, the other folks who are at that party have consented to witness scening, else they not be there, but they've not consented to that level of scene. You risk being (justifiably) censured by your peers.

P: Hi homburg,

even with your definition of 'harm,' UB's scene does not appear to fit, as she said,

UB//the actual actions are totally within the normal bounds of what this person would go for. //

P: one might suppose that this is, for example, a severe whipping while being bound, that induces first protest, then despair and temporary, emotional 'coming apart', as in crying for a limited time.

i don't, however, agree with your definition of harm,

Hom Harm, in this case, is defined as non-consensual injury.

P: harm, legally, is significant injury. consent is relevant in determining whther the infliction of injury constitutes an assault: for example, suffering a broken nose in a boxing match is not counted as being assaulted because of consent.

however, as the famous British case [gay males, inflicting injury] known as "Spanner" determined, with spousal actions and SM actions, the law may look at the harm, and set aside the alleged consent (the idea being that it is pathological).

http://www.spannertrust.org/documents/spannerhistory.asp

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so my answer to bijou is that the action described://tearing him/herm to bits, both physically and emotionally.// is not specified enough to know if we're dealing with harm, significant injury. being put into 'bits' can be transitory or long lasting. if you envision long lasting injury it's outside the law.

IF the injury is transitory and consented to, and the bottom does not care about the affection or lack of it, in the top-- or even prefers the lack of it-- i see no problem in what you, UB, hypothetically proposed.