Humiliation and Respect

[Homburg]

i don't, however, agree with your definition of harm,

Hom Harm, in this case, is defined as non-consensual injury.

P: harm, legally, is significant injury. consent is relevant in determining whther the infliction of injury constitutes an assault: for example, suffering a broken nose in a boxing match is not counted as being assaulted because of consent.

Given that I was defining harm solely for the use in that one post, it is not really something that requires agreement or not. I was explaining my usage, not trying to produce an exhaustive read on that word.

so my answer to bijou is that the action described://tearing him/herm to bits, both physically and emotionally.// is not specified enough to know if we're dealing with harm, significant injury. being put into 'bits' can be transitory or long lasting. if you envision long lasting injury it's outside the law.

IF the injury is transitory and consented to, and the bottom does not care about the affection or lack of it, in the top-- or even prefers the lack of it-- i see no problem in what you, UB, hypothetically proposed.

Please note the use of the word "Permanently". Yes, it may well be hyperbole, but permanence is not something to be taken lightly. I agree, transitory injury happens, but the implication here was a of permanent harm, however improbable.

 

[onyxvixen]

Humiliation is something that only works if the pyl in question respects you. They have to believe that your good opinion and respect is something worth having and that they've temporarily or even permanently lost it. That's when the best and most fulfilling scenes occur IME.

Something like UB spoke about would decimate that bond of respect. Therefore, although an extreme scene may have been consented to, afterwards the magic will be lost. The pyl won't be thinking 'OMG I really am a worthless piece of shit!' They'll probably be thinking that the PYL was abusive and cease to give a rats ass about what she said, did or thought of them.

Just MHO.

 

[Tom Bishop]

H and R

Please Bare with me it is part of our Humiliation play That I write here so he knows how I am feeling.
I would like responses
We are an odd couple he is small 20 years younger. in the begining he was scared of me he had been picked on and bullied all his life.
I am what you call a Type A personalety I have been a boss at work for many many years. On the street people come to me for help solveing there problems all the time I never would have belived 4-5 years ago that I would be serviceing a young man as His cock sucker play toy.
We have times where we just sit and talk He tells me how hard it is for him to relize that he has an older masculine macho man That he can force to submit to his whims. He says he likes to be able to bare his ass and tell me to kiss his ass and I willingly do it . And how exciteing it is for him to annouse that he has to take a piss and I follow him to the bathroom take his cock out hold it as he pees then kiss the last drop off then tuck him back in and say thank you for him letting me help
I am not Allowed to make cantact with him even though I see him on job sites He calls and I go being that we work in the same shop he knows my schedual He knows that I am on call so getting away from my family is easy well not easy but doable one time he called and I could not get away he didn't call back for 6 weeks then when he did he made me say over the phone That I was sorry I couldn't come to him and suck him off and that I was sorry . Then when I got to his house he answered the door he was there with a friend who knows about us and he asked me what I wanted I had to say I was there to please him he asked how? I said suck his cock and kiss his ass and any other thing he wanted . He just shut the door I felt like shit I stood there for a long time hopeing he would come back he didn't I didn't here from him till the next day he never said he was sorry he just said get your cum mouth over here I did and it was a great 6 hour play time

So if any of this makes sense and shows how haveing this young man Humiliate me into wanting to take what he is willing to give me Then tell me
BJ Bishop

 

[Netzach]

second scenario, far more dangerous. What if I knew a bottom that I truly and genuinely disliked, on a personal level? Let's say I could truly and genuinely get off on tearing him/herm to bits, both physically and emotionally. Let's also assume that the actual actions are totally within the normal bounds of what this person would go for. And let's pretend I meet herm at a play party.

Fuck aftercare. I'd like to leave this person shivering in the dust. Permanently. Is it even vaguely okay that I think about doing that? And given the (extraordinarily unlikely) possibility that that could happen, what would folks in here do? Go for it or not?

just some further thoughts, and let me say again how much I've appreciated the illumination in this thread.

bijou

I don't think there's anything wrong with this, provided the person knows that this is what may or will happen, and provided I want to do it and will get satisfaction out of it for my own reasons.

I don't believe in policing or babysitting the orgasms of the people who choose to have them with me, or second-guessing them.There's nothing wrong with scratching a mutual itch. Let everyone else in the world question the health sanity and validity of the sexual need, to me, there's a certain respect that only comes in the validation of "going there."

If a person wants to experience this kind of thing, how is it respectful to decide what's better for them? Either enjoy it, or say "I'm very sorry, I cannot do this for you" - but don't put this onus back on them of "how messed up you are to want something I find out of bounds."

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I don't think there's anything wrong with this, provided the person knows that this is what may or will happen, and provided I want to do it and will get satisfaction out of it for my own reasons.

I don't believe in policing or babysitting the orgasms of the people who choose to have them with me, or second-guessing them.There's nothing wrong with scratching a mutual itch. Let everyone else in the world question the health sanity and validity of the sexual need, to me, there's a certain respect that only comes in the validation of "going there."

If a person wants to experience this kind of thing, how is it respectful to decide what's better for them? Either enjoy it, or say "I'm very sorry, I cannot do this for you" - but don't put this onus back on them of "how messed up you are to want something I find out of bounds."

I really appreciate this, and the other ideas expressed on the thread. Thanks to all for taking the time to address this.

What you, Netzach, are describing was more the scenario I was thinking of - both people go in entirely aware of what's about to happen and why.

Lest you think this is a self-portrait, it's really more that I'm thinking really hard about what could be extreme scenarios, in an attempt to understand the "head", the ethics, the issues within humiliation play. It's something I want and need to get a better handle on if I ever want to offer it to someone with any skill. I don't know anyone I dislike enough to go there with, and odds are that if I did, they wouldn't be into humiliation play...

It is fascinating, isn't it, the immense, universal difference between, say, being angry enough to want to beat the shit out of someone in a bar, and the entirely different sensation that is the urge to, well, frankly, beat the shit out of someone you love like your own life. I'm deducing that actual humiliation and humiliation play are similarly divided by a rather large chasm.

Thanks, all, for the input. I'm learning that I still have a great deal to understand.

eta: and a special thanks that everyone didn't get on and say, "YOU SICK BITCH WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU." That was sorta my nightmare scenario.

bijou

 

[Homburg]

What you, Netzach, are describing was more the scenario I was thinking of - both people go in entirely aware of what's about to happen and why.

Ah, I got a different read. If both parties are aware, go for it.

It is fascinating, isn't it, the immense, universal difference between, say, being angry enough to want to beat the shit out of someone in a bar, and the entirely different sensation that is the urge to, well, frankly, beat the shit out of someone you love like your own life. I'm deducing that actual humiliation and humiliation play are similarly divided by a rather large chasm.

Absolutely. I have done things to my bottoms that I would never do to someone I despise, and have done things to those offering me violence that I would never think of doing to even the most masochistic painslut. Same goes for humiliation.

eta: and a special thanks that everyone didn't get on and say, "YOU SICK BITCH WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU." That was sorta my nightmare scenario.

bijou

If I called you a sick bitch, you can be damned sure that it would be intended as a serious compliment

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Ah, I got a different read. If both parties are aware, go for it.

Absolutely. I have done things to my bottoms that I would never do to someone I despise, and have done things to those offering me violence that I would never think of doing to even the most masochistic painslut. Same goes for humiliation.

I have thought about going back to edit the post to make the question clearer, but it doesn't really matter at this point. It was, I admit, not as well laid out as I would've liked. That's what comes from working in the purely hypothetical.

ETA: in re-reading the question, I misused the word "permanently." That is, I have no desire to create permanent physical injury. I'm using it to differentiate that action from one that involves aftercare, reconciliation, that sort of thing. I understand the confusion that caused.

If I called you a sick bitch, you can be damned sure that it would be intended as a serious compliment

lol!

no doubt.

I shall continue, then, to strive for that...

bj

 

[rooky2]

on humiliation and respect...

My definitions conflict here again…equating humility with humiliation to me is like equating love between a loving husband and wife with that of a rape. Similarly statements such as humiliation at the hands of the one who knows you and has deep respect for you…???…beats me again, would you like to humiliate, and on top of it enjoy it, if you are inflicting it (humiliation) on some one you really respect? I am also surprised when I found someone on this forum tried to relate the teachings of Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism and then with the term humility which he astonishingly consider to be “spiritually” related with humiliation…Regarding the first part, I think the religion which see society in a cast system including that of untouchables should not be compared, in this particular respect, with the other two, as one creates inequality in status among humans based on the mere birth of a child in a particular family or a tribe, while the other two does not. Having said that let me come to the original questions:

a) How do couples maintain respect for each other over long periods of time together, especially if they are into humiliation play? And

b) Certain humiliating action could change my partner's perception of self outside the scenes think would feel really insecure about playing more…

To answer, there can be two approaches:
1) Perceive it in form of a temporary drama, or like TV or film serials. Actors /actresses playing roles in it play temporarily and are not “real” rather perform to be perceived as real. In doing so, these actors/actresses do bring in their “reallife” emotions to make it look real for the viewers. In reality or long term life they have different behaviour in general. So I feel the actors acting in humiliation acts know that it’s something out of normal and not part of their real or routine regular life, so once out of it they behave differently (reality life); these acts of humiliation, like a TV series, may remain repetitive on regular basis, but would remain acts and therefore should not be confused as real. Yet, I must admit, the feelings of the acts done may and can permeate in real life, and it is for this reason that we see some times actors and actresses getting married (or attached) after remaining romantically involved in “performed art” in unreal life (acts of film/drama), affecting their real life relations. Further, I do wonder how a wife/mother could (or husband/ father), walk with pride side by side with her husband/son (or a wife/daughter) when they come face to face with their master/mistress involved in humiliating them. I don’t think in normal circumstances it can be without a sense of shame or a guilt?
2) Humiliation is not a normal humane act. Historically, it has been committed on fellow humans only to insult/degrade them and as a mark to show them disrespect, not respect. So I feel the term humiliation and respect is not being used here in BDMS forum in the traditional sense, rather some what in loose or casual sense probably to create sensation.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Absolutely. I have done things to my bottoms that I would never do to someone I despise, and have done things to those offering me violence that I would never think of doing to even the most masochistic painslut.

*swoons*

 

[Pure]

to unpredictable

It is fascinating, isn't it, the immense, universal difference between, say, being angry enough to want to beat the shit out of someone in a bar, and the entirely different sensation that is the urge to, well, frankly, beat the shit out of someone you love like your own life. I'm deducing that actual humiliation and humiliation play are similarly divided by a rather large chasm.

excellently put, UB.

and note, too, the mindfuck. in the second case, the beaten one has to deal with: [top] loves me and is hurting me. and [likely] getting off on it. further, the bottom may be thinking or even asking "why is this happening?" and the answer, whether stated or not is "for no particular reason" [i.e. no specific offense]. or the bottom thinks or asks, 'are you angry with me'; answer, 'no, not at all. [and then further hurt is inflicted]."

 

[Homburg]

*swoons*

 

[faeriefire]

My definitions conflict here again…equating humility with humiliation to me is like equating love between a loving husband and wife with that of a rape. Similarly statements such as humiliation at the hands of the one who knows you and has deep respect for you…???…beats me again, would you like to humiliate, and on top of it enjoy it, if you are inflicting it (humiliation) on some one you really respect? I am also surprised when I found someone on this forum tried to relate the teachings of Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism and then with the term humility which he astonishingly consider to be “spiritually” related with humiliation…Regarding the first part, I think the religion which see society in a cast system including that of untouchables should not be compared, in this particular respect, with the other two, as one creates inequality in status among humans based on the mere birth of a child in a particular family or a tribe, while the other two does not. Having said that let me come to the original questions:

a) How do couples maintain respect for each other over long periods of time together, especially if they are into humiliation play? And

b) Certain humiliating action could change my partner's perception of self outside the scenes think would feel really insecure about playing more…

To answer, there can be two approaches:
1) Perceive it in form of a temporary drama, or like TV or film serials. Actors /actresses playing roles in it play temporarily and are not “real” rather perform to be perceived as real. In doing so, these actors/actresses do bring in their “reallife” emotions to make it look real for the viewers. In reality or long term life they have different behaviour in general. So I feel the actors acting in humiliation acts know that it’s something out of normal and not part of their real or routine regular life, so once out of it they behave differently (reality life); these acts of humiliation, like a TV series, may remain repetitive on regular basis, but would remain acts and therefore should not be confused as real. Yet, I must admit, the feelings of the acts done may and can permeate in real life, and it is for this reason that we see some times actors and actresses getting married (or attached) after remaining romantically involved in “performed art” in unreal life (acts of film/drama), affecting their real life relations. Further, I do wonder how a wife/mother could (or husband/ father), walk with pride side by side with her husband/son (or a wife/daughter) when they come face to face with their master/mistress involved in humiliating them. I don’t think in normal circumstances it can be without a sense of shame or a guilt?
2) Humiliation is not a normal humane act. Historically, it has been committed on fellow humans only to insult/degrade them and as a mark to show them disrespect, not respect. So I feel the term humiliation and respect is not being used here in BDMS forum in the traditional sense, rather some what in loose or casual sense probably to create sensation.

According to the Am. Heritage Dictionary:
Humiliate: to lower the pride, dignity, or self-respect of another; degrade
Humility: the quality or condition of being humble
Humble: meek or modest; deferentially respectful; low in rank or station

My goodness...interesting direction for the thread to go...very cool As for your perspective Rooky I think a lot of the questions you raised really reflect my reasons for posting this thread in the first place. To me this kind of play seemed (past tense) really demeaning. What I've come to realize through reading the threads in the library on humiliation and in hearing new takes on this topic is that humiliation in bdsm can't be categorized into a dictionary definition.

For every person the true meaning on bdsm humiliation is different. For one lady it might be being seen by her husband with lights on and no clothing. For another it might be saying 'I'm your little slut' to her Dom. And for someone else it might mean licking guck off the floor. In each case she gets something out of it, an affirmation that she is still seen as an individual when the play is over. And she is able to act on her desires, to do something she would probably not without being ordered to do it by another. (please excuse exlusively female pov as know there are males who also enjoy humiliation but I don't know any myself)

In rape, the victim is a faceless vessel being brutalized. I know the attacker might know his victim and vice versa, but in most cases it could be anyone and that attacker will go on to attack again, nameless, voiceless victims. In bdsm humiliation the partners (ideally) enter play with a prior understanding of their like, dislikes, limits, and a safeword if agreed upon beforehand. If a couple tried humiliation without really knowing each other or respecting each other I suppose it could become a rape of the senses.

I'm not a Dom, so I can't speak for the PYLs, tho I think Homburg gave some nice examples above of what he gets out of humiliating a pyl. A few Dom's also pm'd me examples of humiliation that really brought them close to their partner. Because they knew their partners' submission was done out of love and a strong desire to submit to them in particular it instilled a sense of awe that this wonderful woman would offer so much of herself. Also, to participate in humiliation play and enjoy it a pyl in most cases (with some exceptions I'm sure) has to accept/acknowledge their nature and what turns them on. That kind of honesty bares a person down to the soul and being able to see that, experience it would be powerful for anyone I think.

As for humiliation being strange or nonhumane, when was the last time anyone spent time in elementary or middle school? Ever visited a sorority? Been through military boot camp? Remember watching Forrest Gump? What I'm trying to say is that humiliation exists on a day-to-day basis. I don't think bdsm humiliation is like making fun of Forrest for being slow or throwing rocks, because the intent is not to permanently harm or emotionally destroy the pyl, but to give pleasure and affirmation. It is to deepen a bond between two people who know and care deeply for each other. IMHO bdsm humiliation is meant to build someone up by breaking them down and then saying 'It's ok, you're admired for submitting so completely and doing this for Me'. Does that make sense? It does to me anyway IMHO everyone should stay true to their nature and if humiliation turns them on then go for it, but if it doesn't then why go there with so much else to explore. A for one and all.

 

[IsabellaKing]

.....

 

[manipulatrix]

Love this thread.

Just a few things I had to throw in. First, safe sane and consensual is a beautiful idea, but I'm not sure that society at large would deem much of what many of us play at to be "safe" or "sane" and they would probably balk at "consensual" as well. I prefer RISK to SSC, where the focus is on education and awareness of what you are doing. Cutting, for example, could be seen as unsafe, but if you are educated about what you are doing (artery locations are kinda important) and are aware of what you are doing... you get the picture.

I think this applies with humiliation play, knowing what you are doing and why and being aware of the other person's reaction... essential. Even if why you do it is "it gets me hot" and your awareness of the other person's reactions is bemusement!

Thinking is always good.

Second, um.... yeah... that "what if I don't like the person and don't care what happens to them and fuck aftercare" idea. Um... fuck that is hot.

Totally politically incorrect, yeah. Not how I usually play. But ... FUCK can that be so far beyond hot. I have had a few boytoys (nonsexual boytoys, btw) who I treated with that sort of disregard. I didn't play like they were objects, they were objects. And there is a huge vast difference. I got off on that dynamic, not on them. Which I loved pointing out, because, yah that just humiliates them more. Rawr@ the many levels of humiliation.

Hmmm there were third and forth points... but now I've distracted myself...

ahhhh... yes... I think it is difficult for people who aren't into humiliation to understand what it is or how it can exist in a relationship that isn't the type I drooled over above... ie. that isn't nearing abusive or completely abusive.

But humiliation can be an integral part of creating intimacy and trust. When I am shopping with my puppy (human puppy) I am always aware of pet stores so that I can take him in and whisper things in his ear like, "I should drop you off for dog grooming, wonder what they'd do?" His blush, whimper, and instant kneetrembling arousal amuses me. When I make him eat a dog biscuit from my hand? Good stuff. Now I'm humiliating him, but it's in a way that we both vibe on and that actually reinforces his place as my treasured pet.

So not only is it compatible with intimacy and respect and all those good things? It is integral within our dynamic.

Humiliation takes all sorts of manifestations. There isn't ONE thing that equals humiliation. And I think that alot of why it *works* for me as a sadist is because it is *wrong*! Because it is wrong, the person taking it for me is proving their devotion. And that is *right*. Like most things I kink on, it's a mindfuck and it flouts conventions.

p.s. The whole, humiliation that hurts someone ya don't like and aren't going to put back together thing??? Did I mention how hot that is???

 

[TenJed69]

Weird, sub girl and I have been 'in to' humiliation since, well the second time we slept together actually. I've always called her "slut", "whore", "my bitch" and so on during a certain kind of sex. Better yet is/was to make her use the words e.g. "I'm your filthy little slut", "please make me your bitch" etc etc. Of course, other times I just stroke her face and tell her that she's beautiful and that I love her, but it's all good

It's only more recently as we've moved towards a more 'formal' D/s relationship that I've started using such terms outside the bedroom (never loud enough to overhear in public ), and added in terms like "my pet", "slave" and "good/bad little girl" and so on.

Of course, verbal 'abuse' isn't the only form of humiliation. I'll write humiliating things on her (or make her write them), make her eat or drink out of a bowel on the floor, have her kiss my feet, cum over her and then not let her wipe it off for a few hours, make her cum so that she 'soaks the bed' and then have thrust her face into it to sniff and/or lick it etc etc. One of my favourites is to humiliate her in public. Not by spanking her or anything But say she goes to the bank to open an account I'll say "She'd like to open an account please" and the clerk will turn to her and say "what sort of account?" and I'll say "She'd like a current account please" and completely talk over her, stuff like that.

Anyway, before the D/s stuff we never really talked about it. I think I just said a word one time, and she made a noise like she enjoyed it, so I did it more. Of course I'd always look after her when it was over, cuddling and kissing, kind words and so on, but that specific subject just never came up, I guess she's just always been ok with it.