I refuse to dumb down my poetry

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: I refuse to dumb down my poetry

Eve,

Don't apologize for challenging the reader, sure you'll have a few give up on the poem, calling it vague, but there will be others who will understand and take the time to really read it.

I read a poem on various levels, first I read it for the initial impact, the closing line that sends a chill though me, the passage that makes me sigh, the phrasing that brings a tear to my eye. Then I read it for the rhythm, the sounds, the way it feels as it rolls off my tongue. I then look for the layers, the metaphor... sometimes obvious, other times artfully or stealthly crafted. It is here where real poetry shines, where I can see beyond gifted phrasing and actually feel the poem.

I may not catch every reference, every nuance, but if I can, not just read, but feel the wonderful texture of the poem I am gratified: the poet has truely touched me. Unfortunately, many people don't take the time, or simply don't understand enough about poetry to grasp the depths of a poem. In fact, I think most people just don't "get" poetry. That is why Rod McCuen is the best selling poet, he appeals though initial impact, whereas a Sylvia Plath at her best has impact, is powerful to read (I have hear recordings of her read her own poetry and wow...) and has layers of meaning in her poem. Rod McCuen would finish higher in the top list, but Sylvia will have a significant impact on those who take the time and have the understanding to feel her poems.

Eve, I "feel" your poems and they often have a significant impact on me on every level. Sure, I'll miss the nuances here and there, perhaps stumble on a reference I might find obscure, but your poetry is always challenging, surprising, layered and exciting. Please, please don't ever dumb down your poetry, unless it is to make a specific point... of course it making that specific point, it is no longer dumbed down.

Just my thoughts here,

jim : )

Alright! Jim! The paragraph describing how you read, should be read.
Third paragraph, regarding Eve, I totally agree, regarding "dumb down", I think that some thought should be placed on the "references" i.e how key are they to the poem, and how they will be percieved.
Second paragraph suppose one does not want to feel Sylvia Plath? But, your point is well put and taken.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I refuse to dumb down my poetry

that is what keeps you so young and sexy

I have said this before, I do not particularly like to be challenged by a poem too much. I am not ignorant or lazy. If I want to work and reasearch, I read essays and novels or scientific articles. That is just me.

I like intelligent poetry that does not require research, it can be done. Look at Billy Collins. He is incredibly intelligent, he does not dumb down his poetry, he just presents it so that Everyone can reach deeper meanings of the every day. I would not call him Rod McKuen. He would make the top list.

Remember, Pablo Nerudo did not get an E or an H before Laurel pulled him from the new poetry list.



I like poetry that washes over you, with feeling or meaning (even if obscure) so that you might not understand every piece but afterwards you feel, think or see differently than you did when you started.

Like a slow walk through the woods, noticing every waxy berry and the cedar wax wing hiding in the top branches... as opposed to running yourself into a sweat. Sometimes the work comes in allowing yourself to be emotionally moved by a poem.



Some people think that a poem is not good unless it is academic and shows off vocabulary. I think of Eve's Macheivellian poem, it seems to poke fun of that PBS academia, but in a way that intelligent AND accessible. I am sure there were people who did not get the message of that one too, but that would be because they were not Thinking, not because they did not do the research.

And dont stop posting your experiments here. This is literotica, bless this place, but Eve.... come on, where else can you better experiment with your writing ? LBJ? Dessert Blooms? I dont think so.

And try not to take the comments to heart, when you experiment you are going to get people who do not like the results. Everyone knows what you can do if you choose to do it.

Be a pioneer.

God, you are so funny
And so right!

 

[WickedEve]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I refuse to dumb down my poetry

Remember, Pablo Nerudo did not get an E or an H before Laurel pulled him from the new poetry list.

I remember! lol

 

[Tathagata]

jesus

I just left feedback and then saw this
I simply went and read Kashmiri Song.
I mean if you have a fuckin reference in your poem and the reader wants to know what you mean..they can't look it up and read it??
lazy bastards
as for all this bullshit...don't write for your " fans'.

I like to see you throw new things out though, as I said, I never felt you had a " style" your pieces had a mood, or a certain tongue but I always thought you could write any thing, any way, and it would always be worth reading.
Keep in mind also, we all have stuff we toss up there just because we are SO tired of trying to write something " more important" and we need to put something out god damn it or we aren't really poets are we??

I've done that twice in the past week or so..neither poem was brilliant or going to change anyone's life..but i liked them for their simplicity and the fact I didn't struggle.

You said this didnt come easy ( odd to hear you say that)
ahem
well sometimes that's the best stuff..because it is uncomfortable, alien, but each time it's gets a little easier.
clearing the brush on a new path so to speak.

The one thing I'm never afraid of here is writing something people don't " get"
I'm in a 3 way arguments now with people over the poem i'm working on
they are opposed to the way I want it presented and I think it HAS to be done that way
Who do you think will win??
; )

3 years from now I may rewrite it
and you can always go back and rework things too
this stuff isn't written in stone
when it's " right" you'll know and anyone who doesn't " get it" should simply accept that fact and move on...not expect you to write " for them" or what they are comfortable with.


there's been alot of this stuff going on here lately.
I'll say it again
Just because you don't like or understand something..doesn't make the poet wrong, or obscure or vague
show me a poet that you like and understand every single poem they've written and I'll show you fuckin Rod Mckuen


edited to add
I didn't see anna use Rod's name
dammit

 

[annaswirls]

Re: jesus

I just left feedback and then saw this
I simply went and read Kashmiri Song.
I mean if you have a fuckin reference in your poem and the reader wants to know what you mean..they can't look it up and read it??
lazy bastards
as for all this bullshit...don't write for your " fans'.

damn it quit calling me lazy!

and this is not about Eve's poetry.

You do not have to be lazy to not want to have to do research to figure out what a writer means.

look at William Carlos Williams. You do not need to have to research chicken or rain or wheelbarrows to understand the poetry. You have to think think think. Find out what is in there, what he was thinking. That is not lazy, it is just a different kind of work.

If something is obscure or academic beyond my training throughout the whole poem yet I am interested in the feel of it, I might look something up, I might just move on to the next one. I don not think this is lazy, is it?

there's been alot of this stuff going on here lately.
I'll say it again
Just because you don't like or understand something..doesn't make the poet wrong, or obscure or vague
show me a poet that you like and understand every single poem they've written and I'll show you fuckin Rod Mckuen

but does it sometimes?

I could write a poem filled with obscure scientific references and just want to say something about how heat does not rise....

are you saying that a poet can never be vague or obscure beyond what is effective?

I dont think you are saying this, but Eve does have a point in that if you are not reaching your goal as a poet, not to make people happy, but maybe to reach them in some way, then can't you be too obscure? to vague?

(I never read the vague thread)

it all depends upon your goal.

sometimes an obscure reference will make your poem a lot less effective-- or confusing.

I remember dh had a poem, and I did not get the reference, but I still got a read on the poem, it was not what he intended, but I still enjoyed the poem. I did not feel the need to look up"

rats it is not on lit anymore. sorry dennis if the line breaks are wrong, it was formatted all crazy

Once More With Feeling
by denis hale ©

Upon the morning after
come the excuses
like a gatling gunstream of stool
from the brown eye of the gift horse
you claim to have never once looked in the mouth.

By the time you read this
it will probably be too late
alreadycomes the gale-force dirge
wailing like a psychotic Slim Whitman
through the stripped limbs of a sick Douglas Fir,
and D.B. Cooper,
all dazed and confused,
pops out on the frozen creek side of a fugue state,

only to find himself bent over a rotting
deadfall stump by Big Foot
ready to make boom boom
from behind again.

Only so many ways
to say seize the day
and if you haven't heard them yet
you're not paying close attention
at all.

so I did not know who db cooper was.

but I STILL understood the poem.
I did not have to look him up in order to get the point.

I did later though because I wanted to...

Those who knew him got to see another piece of dennis' humor.

those who didn't could still get it.

and as for the "boom boom"
some people thought it was takin a poop
where it was intended to mean um something in the other direction...

ee cummings has a poem
I told him
he didn't believe it
you told him
he couldn't believe it

and it goes on and on ending with a bizarre phrase that in the end referred to the Japanese using US scrap metal to make bullets.... I did not know this until I looked it up. But before then, it still had meaning. Just not the WHOLE or intended meaning, or maybe he did not want people to look it up at all. Who the hell knows

sometimes part of the point of a poem is to put something in there tha makes people say

wow I have no idea what that means but it is cool anyway. or maybe Because.

okay I am done damn it. I gotta bake a sponge bob cake, I have no idea how I am going to do it. I mean the guy is square, it shouldnt be too difficult.

~anna

edited to add
I didn't see anna use Rod's name
dammit [/B]

ha I was not the first, I just stole it from another post.

an obscure reference

 

[Tathagata]

Re: Re: jesus

damn it quit calling me lazy!

and this is not about Eve's poetry.

You do not have to be lazy to not want to have to do research to figure out what a writer means.

If something is obscure or academic beyond my training throughout the whole poem yet I am interested in the feel of it, I might look something up, I might just move on to the next one. I don not think this is lazy, is it?

What I'm saying is...instead of complaining that you don't understand something..if the poet makes an obvious reference to another poem, or a song, or a movie from 1930, and you really WANT to understand the poem...yeah you do a little research.
Or maybe that's just me.
If I liked a band or a song and they said " oh yeah one of my biggest influences was Muddy waters" i'd go listen to muddy Waters...and if muddy waters said " i loved Sun House" I'd go listen to him.
I do the same thing with poetry.
By doing this you not only expose yourself to things you didn't know...you also increase your frame of reference so that Next time Eve writes a poem you might know what shes talking about.
I figure if anyone is interested enough in what I write to complain they don't get it..they should be interested enough to find out what I might be talking about, either by asking or doing a little reading.


I agree about the feel...and I loved the feel of Her poem today..but after I read the poem she was playing on..it took on a whole new dimension.
and it seems that most of the whiners are people who dont want a " feely" poem..they want it all spelled out...so go read the poem she was talking about and it'll all make sense

but does it sometimes?

I could write a poem filled with obscure scientific references and just want to say something about how heat does not rise....

are you saying that a poet can never be vague or obscure beyond what is effective?

I have no idea where you came to that conclusion
LOL
I'm saying just the opposite
I'm saying write what you want and feel and if people don't get it then they can either figure it out or just bypass it

I dont think you are saying this, but Eve does have a point in that if you are not reaching your goal as a poet, not to make people happy, but maybe to reach them in some way, then can't you be too obscure? to vague?

(I never read the vague thread)

it all depends upon your goal.

sometimes an obscure reference will make your poem a lot less effective-- or confusing.

if your goal is to make everyone happy and to make sure everyone understands you...good luck
then you can write hallmark cards
as I said..there is no writer, poet, musician etc that I like or understand every single thing they've done
there are still albums I bought that, 20 years later, I listen to thinking...this time i'll get it...and don't.
There are also poems and albums I listen to 5 years later and say " aha...now I see" because something in my life has changed
that's my point..just because you don't " get it" today...doesn't mean you wont get it next week...maybe you'll stumble onto a Yeats poem that will unlock an Ange poem for you.
We are all writing from different places...you cant expect that every one is going to get every thing you write.

and this whole " being vague" thing...to me if you go listen to a zen lecture..it's all vague double talk...but once you have a bit of insight...you say " aha...i think I see" and as you understand more..you see more in the words and actions.
I think poetry is like that.
its all consciousness...just because you don't understand the language doesn't mean there's no truth there.

I remember dh had a poem, and I did not get the reference, but I still got a read on the poem, it was not what he intended, but I still enjoyed the poem. I did not feel the need to look up"

rats it is not on lit anymore. sorry dennis if the line breaks are wrong, it was formatted all crazy




so I did not know who db cooper was.

but I STILL understood the poem.
I did not have to look him up in order to get the point.

I did later though because I wanted to...

I didn't say you had too
but you also didn't complain that the poem was obscure and vague and not up to his standards

you can enjoy a poem that you may not understand..
some people can't and, because they don't, say it's no good
which is typical
if we don't understand something we fear it and thus criticize it.
" I don't get this...other people do...does that mean I'm dumb?? Hell I'm not dumb..it's the stupid poets fault for not writing clearly"
what a pile of shit

and it goes on and on ending with a bizarre phrase that in the end referred to the Japanese using US scrap metal to make bullets.... I did not know this until I looked it up. But before then, it still had meaning. Just not the WHOLE or intended meaning, or maybe he did not want people to look it up at all. Who the hell knows

sometimes part of the point of a poem is to put something in there tha makes people say

wow I have no idea what that means but it is cool anyway. or maybe Because.

I agree but you see you DID look it up
that's my point
and now you know something you didn't and some day you'll reference that in some poem and someone will say " what the christ is she talking about??"
and they'll go read ee
and now they can use it..and on and on
you see??
to me that's what poetry and music are all about..

okay I am done damn it. I gotta bake a sponge bob cake, I have no idea how I am going to do it. I mean the guy is square, it shouldnt be too difficult.

~anna

my " surrogate" grandson loves sponge bob
you have to see him sing the theme and dance

 

[champagne1982]

I think we should have a new poem challenge
must rhyme
must use at least 5 of the following words

cock
squish
oil
pussy

um okay that is all I can think of

must contain 1 cliche

etc.

whattya say?

Jenn

Okay I'll Bite

Y'all talk about rhyme as if it is a contemptible device,
but I tell ya, there are poems that are really kinda nice,
like uncooked rice, thrown at the bride on her wedding day,
in the rain it goes squish and you're convinced
you should be at a suishy bar, rice and fish
a rain-squish day.
The bride rubs her palms with sesame oil,
and slips her hand down underneath
the tuxedo zipper into that pubic hair coil
to find nestled there, the wonderous snake
like a thick rope, unused, stiffening
hard as a rock, her new husband's cock
and her pussy turns into squishy squid suishy
at one glance from him.


now I gotta go. I'm workin' on bein' a lil less dumb too...

 

[twelveoone]

Okay I'll Bite

Y'all talk about rhyme as if it is a contemptible device,
but I tell ya, there are poems that are really kinda nice,
like uncooked rice, thrown at the bride on her wedding day,
in the rain it goes squish and you're convinced
you should be at a suishy bar, rice and fish
a rain-squish day.
The bride rubs her palms with sesame oil,
and slips her hand down underneath
the tuxedo zipper into that pubic hair coil
to find nestled there, the wonderous snake
like a thick rope, unused, stiffening
hard as a rock, her new husband's cock
and her pussy turns into squishy squid suishy
at one glance from him.


now I gotta go. I'm workin' on bein' a lil less dumb too...

100 - well constucted, funny
I think you are a genius, and annaswirls too, of course eve
I did have to google "tuxedo" and "hair coil" I didn't know they made them for there. It slid in under my one google per ten lines thing.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Eve, you're one of my heroes, always unafraid to stretch your readers' universe, whether they like it or not. To me, that is the very definition of a poet.

Letely we had vague threads vaguely about "vague poetry", the Author's Hangout also had its own "How obscure is too obscure" debate, and a lot of people seem to miss two important concepts:

1. reading is not a passive activity;
2. poetry (as well as prose) is not potato chips.

I agree with Anna when she says that if you have to do research in order to even start to understand a poem, there's something not quite right, but there are always acceptable layers of understanding. A particular reader doesn't need to know each and every word and understand each and every reference for him or her to appreciate the entirely of the piece.

When you write a Winter poem, do you worry about the thousands of millions of potential readers that have never seen a snowfall not understanding it?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm worried about the huge number of people complaining about poems and stories being "constructed". Am I alone on this one?

 

[Tathagata]

I agree with Anna when she says that if you have to do research in order to even start to understand a poem, there's something not quite right

~sigh~

If this refers back to what I said...I Never said you "had" to do research...and I didn't mean to even "begin to understand" a poem"


Eve's poem had very specific references...a few readers obviously couldn't get anything out of it because they didn't understand the references...and obviously that was key in them getting anything out of it at all.
while others were able to read it and enjoy and not have to understand every word.
My advice was, if you can't enjoy it without understanding it..and you really WANT to understand it...look it up.

To call something sub par or contrived because "you" don't get it , and you make no effort to get it, is just wrong

 

[Lauren Hynde]

~sigh~

Everything I said was in agreement with you, you know...

All Eve's references fall into place immediately for anyone who read Fahrenheit 451. Even without getting those, the deeper meaning of the poem is quite clear.

When I said that "there's something not quite right", it most often applies to the reader. (See my snowfall example above.)

 

[Tathagata]

Everything I said was in agreement with you, you know...

All Eve's references fall into place immediately for anyone who read Fahrenheit 451. Even without getting those, the deeper meaning of the poem is quite clear.

When I said that "there's something not quite right", it most often applies to the reader. (See my snowfall example above.)

Oh...........

well never mind then





( sorry this whole thing has me a little....rattled shall we say?)

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I just like the little angry emote.

But I'm still more worried about the huge number of people complaining about poems and stories being "constructed".

 

[Liar]

Damn, are you guys having intellectual discourse in here without me?

Just as well, I don't think I could ang ot too well at the moment. Need sleep...

My definititon of a really good poem is one that has a good balance between, and venute far out in each of three directions:

1. I want it delectable. I want something peasing to the eye or the ear. An aestethic dimension that sets it aside from your regular VCR manual. Rhythm, rhyme, funk, blues. Or flowery ornaments and spider web delicacy. Maybe stringent and lean, or bombastic and overflowing.

2. I want it emotional. Not as in tear wrenching per se, but if my heart, my laughing muscle, my (ahem) nether muscle or my guts doesn't react to the theme and message, then I'm not satisfied. I want a knee jerk response, before I begin to pick it apart, runt down references and analyze why.

3. I want a challenge, a poen that expands my copia of experiences, that teaches me something. About life, about snow, about dishwashers, about human nature, whatever. But a new perspective on things that I didn't have. If it teached me new stuff by assimilation, by letting me take the ideas and sort them into the existing niches in my head, then it's a good poem. If it forces me to carve a new niche, and gives me the motivation to do so willingly, then it's an awesome poem.

 

[Liar]

I just like the little angry emote.

But I'm still more worried about the huge number of people complaining about poems and stories being "constructed".

How the heck do you write one, if you don't construct it?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

How the heck do you write one, if you don't construct it?

Exactly!

 

[Reltne]

. . .
To call something sub par or contrived because "you" don't get it , and you make no effort to get it, is just wrong

I hope you are not referring to me. I did "get it". The only thing I had to confirm was that 232.8 °C translates to 451.04 °F. . . Not all of us are as multicultural gifted as are Lauren and Liar.

I still don't think it is among Eve's better works, and to me it appears to lack the "natural smoothness/flow" that I think is one of her strongest traits. It reads to me like for once she filled in the words around a few pre-picked phrases/ideas instead of letting everything bubble out as it would before going back to polish, trim, and tweak. - I maintain I see seams; thus I say "constructed" and "concoction".

When WE is studied in schools by future generations "Poetry People" will only be mentioned and explained in the CliffsNotes for advanced poetry students [Lauren's kids ].

 

[Maria2394]

moistly... lol
I can't sleep and I'm getting all fretful over this. Maybe I'm not communicating properly with my poetry. Sure, I know what I'm talking about but does anyone else? lol There are so many fascinating facts, people, words, etc out there that I just want to write about some of it. But what good is the poem if the majority of the people don't get it... like my stereogram poem. I need to explain myself better in my poems. Or write what I really know, what flows from me, blah blah and blah.

blah.

Dear Eve,
what a shame that you fret over anything that someone would ay on here. I personally becamse upset so many times, becamee jaded, TRIED to write the "stuff" that gets on the toplist and then when I got there, I got zapped down, then one day, I dunno, somethinghappened, and I started writing what I wanted to write, saying what I wanted to say. My so called "deep" poems never even get 10 votes, my best ones, ( I Think) and they sit there and I am looking for a home for my babies, as Anna would say.

You must be true to yourself, your muse, whatever its called, I learn when I read you, nuances of words, how to blend them. I learn for many people here. I learn everytime I read you, angelien, anna, neo,1201, tath, MET, sandspike, flyguy, I miss JD and Pat and Tara, I love so many poets here it hurts me to see people leave and take their babies. and now you are hurting and that is wrong...but even pain is or can be, a good inspiration

PLease, as much as you encourage people here, please let yourself be your own encouragement. I found that when you try to write what people want, you are giving away your soul. I will come to VA and spank you if you ever try to change

 

[Tathagata]

I hope you are not referring to me. I did "get it". The only thing I had to confirm was that 232.8 °C translates to 451.04 °F. . . Not all of us are as multicultural gifted as are Lauren and Liar.

I still don't think it is among Eve's better works, and to me it appears to lack the "natural smoothness/flow" that I think is one of her strongest traits. It reads to me like for once she filled in the words around a few pre-picked phrases/ideas instead of letting everything bubble out as it would before going back to polish, trim, and tweak. - I maintain I see seams; thus I say "constructed" and "concoction".

When WE is studied in schools by future generations "Poetry People" will only be mentioned and explained in the CliffsNotes for advanced poetry students [Lauren's kids ].

Actually I was referring to you and " dumb and confused" jointly.

And you are entitled to your opinion as is everyone..I think you should have perhaps " pm'ed" the part about hoping it was a phase she was going through because, frankly, that's a pretty high handed thing to say to someone who you think has more talent then " 99% of the people on this board".
It seems to me that not only is she allowed to have a bad poem ( if that's what you want to call it ) she would also know what's shes doing better than you or I would.

me personally if I had anything that negative to say I wouldn't embarrass someone I profess to respect so much in public.

That's all
but that's me...Mister Vegas
if we were in germany I'd make your bunk

 

[Liar]

Exactly!

Here is a very constructed poem:

Roses are red.
Violets are pink.
I am a poet,
sweet lord how I stink.

It's got a meter and rhyme scheme, deliberate reading rhythm, and a set of very deliberate figures (allusion, anticlimax, fourth wall, antithesis...), all applied to achieve a certain reader reaction.

Do you think those who complained about "constructed" poems would complain about this? Or do they really mean, "complicated"?

 

[Tathagata]

Here is a very constructed poem:

Roses are red.
Violets are pink.
I am a poet,
sweet lord how I stink.

It's got a meter and rhyme scheme, deliberate reading rhythm, and a set of very deliberate figures (allusion, anticlimax, fourth wall, antithesis...), all applied to achieve a certain reader reaction.

Do you think those who complained about "constructed" poems would complain about this? Or do they really mean, "complicated"?

that last line is too vague
do you mean smell or have no talent??
tell me!!
otherwise I can't enjoy it

 

[Maria2394]

if this is off topic, forgive me, but...

the way it appears to me, is that Eve is growing, trying new things, as with her Neopetal series, which I totally enjoyed, didnt understand all of it, but I still read them, makesmy mind feel like I am on a carousel.
I just want to share a FB email I got when I wrote A willow Bending


this is only a paraphrase after the first line..

Dear Maria,
You are not 2rivers or Annaswirls,
your use of disjointed phrases and imagery does your work a disservice. You shoudl stick with yoru narratives which is what you do best...


now to me, that was hateful, telling me in fact, that why bother to ever TRY something new... sounds about like some of the FB you get lately...ignore it, reach for the sky!!!!

 

[Tathagata]

Re: if this is off topic, forgive me, but...

the way it appears to me, is that Eve is growing, trying new things, as with her Neopetal series, which I totally enjoyed, didnt understand all of it, but I still read them, makesmy mind feel like I am on a carousel.
I just want to share a FB email I got when I wrote A willow Bending


this is only a paraphrase after the first line..

Dear Maria,
You are not 2rivers or Annaswirls,
your use of disjointed phrases and imagery does your work a disservice. You shoudl stick with yoru narratives which is what you do best...


now to me, that was hateful, telling me in fact, that why bother to ever TRY something new... sounds about like some of the FB you get lately...ignore it, reach for the sky!!!!

I've always loved your yoru narratives

 

[Maria2394]

Re: Re: if this is off topic, forgive me, but...

I've always loved your yoru narratives

YOU TAth, are SUCH a bad bad monkey

dont you know its bad luck to pick on a HS dropouts inability to type??? I think I will go crawl in my poetry closet and cry for 11 minutes


hehe