In Defense of Grammar

[NattyBumppo]

I adore this thread. It might be my favorite on Lit.

I just found this. Hallefrickinlujah.

How about misspellings, like god son, mischevious, greatful and sundry other simple things that are easily clarified by simply doing a little research?

Thank you for this thread and the contributions to it.

 

[katbound]

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[katbound]

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[daus42]

 

[katbound]

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[LeChatNoir]

Some of my personal favorites are the ever-popular "nip that in the butt" (not to say that couldn't be interesting), and the describing of an object which is stretched taut as being stretched "taunt".

-LCN

 

[HornyVikingMN]

Word or Not Word?

I don't think this one has been addressed yet, so I apologize if it has:

Word or Not Word?: Orientated

I prefer oriented, and I think that's correct, but I have seen dictionaries that do list orientated as a word. Is this a case where the misuse became so common that the dictionary people just said "we give up" and added it?

 

[conrad34]

I don't think this one has been addressed yet, so I apologize if it has:

Word or Not Word?: Orientated

I prefer oriented, and I think that's correct, but I have seen dictionaries that do list orientated as a word. Is this a case where the misuse became so common that the dictionary people just said "we give up" and added it?

Oriented is more correct - the root word is orient. You orient yourself in space, you don't orientate yourself. I hate orientate/orientated/disorientated and fight them wherever I see them. But usage shifts over time, and as you say HornyViking, the misuse has become so common that the usage guides and dictionaries have had to incorporate it as acceptable.

 

[Yesspleasse]

Oriented is more correct - the root word is orient. You orient yourself in space, you don't orientate yourself. I hate orientate/orientated/disorientated and fight them wherever I see them. But usage shifts over time, and as you say HornyViking, the misuse has become so common that the usage guides and dictionaries have had to incorporate it as acceptable.

Btw, if you take an Oriental person, and spin them around and around, do they eventually become disoriented? :]


(On another note, I personally think that problems with language are often overexaggerated.)

 

[katbound]

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[katbound]

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[Yesspleasse]

The American Heritage Book of English Usage:

It is worth remembering, though, that Oriental is not an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. It is most objectionable in contemporary contexts and when used as a noun, as in the appointment of an Oriental to head the commission. But in certain historical contexts, or when its exotic connotations are integral to the topic, Oriental remains a useful term.

Random House's Guide to Sensitive Language describes the term Oriental as outdated or inaccurate, grouping it with colored. They prescribe using Asian or a more specific designation like Chinese American or Korean.

Merriam-Webster describes the term as sometimes offensive and Encarta states that when the term is used as a noun, it is considered a highly offensive term for somebody from East Asia.

Thanks for that.

I am not the world's greatest fan of pc language, I must say.

 

[2likis2luv]

I think the most important thing is to get your ideas down regardless of spieling.

Remember i before e accept when followed by sea and too if by land

 

[2likis2luv]

I think you're all right!

I think your alright is right, alright?

 

[Mr. Show]

I wish this thread was called "In Defence of Grammer"

 

[rootsfan]

Great thread!

Thanks for that.

I am not the world's greatest fan of pc language, I must say.

"PC language", there's an overused term. I'm getting a little tired of people saying "I'm not PC" with some sense of pride, when what they really mean is "I'm going to continue to use slurs and other terms that demean people who are different from me, so nyah nyah nyah."

 

[katbound]

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[katbound]

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[katbound]

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[Yesspleasse]

Great thread!


"PC language", there's an overused term. I'm getting a little tired of people saying "I'm not PC" with some sense of pride, when what they really mean is "I'm going to continue to use slurs and other terms that demean people who are different from me, so nyah nyah nyah."

Calm your clams.

I'm willing to be convinced.

How and why is 'Oriental' demeaning for persons but not for restaurants (whole cuisines in fact), express trains, Hotels (located in the area concerned and named/advertised by the hotel)............?

Unless I am mistaken and it is offensive for these too. :]

Out of date, possibly, but then so is 'Celtic' arguably.

I presume there must be some derogatory associations in the USA, but hey, that would be the USA's problem, if it were the case, for using the term derogatively. Naughty.

 

[katbound]

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[Yesspleasse]

Fair enough I can see the point you're making, but I think context and intent are just as important as fluidity.

The wiki page you quoted (I think) earlier does add that the term is not generally considered offensive in Britain, which probably explains my confusion. And these offerings from the Online Urban Dictionary are interesting:

" in the US it is considered by politically correct people..... to connote the imperialist/colonialist period of European attitudes towards (East) Asians. Usage is, therefore, relative to a) Where you are and b) Who you're talking to. So everybody just relax.

"He is a specialist in East Asian Languages." PC in the USA. However, he might have received his degree from the London School of Oriental and African Languages."

"Many Americans will heatedly argue that only objects are oriental, and to call a person an oriental is now considered racist. They tell you to call them Asian or, if applicable, Asian American. But what most Americans don't know is that in the UK a person from East Asia is considered oriental, and South Asians are the ones designated as Asian. It's a relative term."

"Something or someone hailing from the Orient. Absolutely NOT an offensive term, only considered so by the uptight, ultrasensitive PC crowd in America. In Europe, the term is widely used without any connotations of insult."

I admit I'm....... partially convinced. I can't say totally so, by any means (yet), especially when I read of criticisms and influences here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)#Influence

Language is not fixed and in stasis. It is constantly changing and evolving. It's true there is still the Orient Express and of course the famous Oriental Hotel chain but there are indications of a change with respect to cuisine. Asian as an adjective to describe certain foods has replaced the term Oriental.

Interestingly, New York's Governor Paterson, in late 2009, signed legislation that will eliminate the use of the term Oriental in reference to persons of Asian or Pacific Islander descent on all forms or preprinted documents used by state government, public authorities or municipalities.

He said, "The words we use matter. We in government recognize that what we print in official documents or forms sets an example of what is acceptable. With this legislation, we take action against derogatory speech and set a new standard. The word ‘oriental’ does not describe ethnic origin, background or even race; in fact, it has deep and demeaning historical roots. I am pleased to sign this legislation and remove the phrase from preprinted forms and documents."
(http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/law-bans-use-of-oriental-in-state-documents/)

In the same article, Harvard law professor Frank H. Wu explained, "The world Oriental is not inherently negative. While the term Oriental has a geographical meaning — eastern — words, especially in a racialized context, carry connotations beyond their literal definitions. It’s associated with a time period when Asians had a subordinate status." According to Wu, the term was also associated with exoticism and with old stereotypes of geisha girls and emasculated men. “Oriental is like the word negro. It conjures up an era.”

 

[PutonaShow]

As an Asian-American person, I will say that I'm offended if someone calls me "Oriental." However, many people simply don't know that it's offensive.

By the way, yes--it is offensive. For me, it'd be comparable to if someone called me yellow or when people use Asian/Chinese interchangably. I can't speak for all Asians/Asian-Americans/what-have-you, but this is how I see it.

If you want a non-fiction example of how and why the term "Oriental" is inappropriate to use, read Confucius Lives Next Door: What Living in the East Teaches Us About Living in the West. This poor guy gets into so many misunderstandings and arguments just because he doesn't understand how/when to use the term "Oriental." xD

Asian is the ethnicity of a person.
Oriental describes inanimate objects, like furniture or food.

So unless you're trying to say that I'm delicious enough to eat, please don't call me Oriental. ;P

 

[katbound]

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[randy123]

I really like this thread but admit I haven't read the whole thing, so I don't know if this has been brought up...

How about people that say they will "borrow" you something?

It's one of my biggest pet peeves.