Indirect & Direct Aggression in D/s

[MissTaken]

In response to Artful

Yes, these and many other qualities in a D/s relationship are instrumental in a vanilla relationship. I agree wholeheartedly.

In terms of the questions, if honesty and communication are prevalent in any relationship, thereby, aggressive or manipulative behavior should be curtailed or, at the very least, minimized.

Rather than lashing out at one another, the couple would feel comfortable discussing the issues at hand.

Therefore, a healthy D/s relationship should not include any aggressive characteristic as definied above.

I am a bit more awake now and I hpe I am making more sense

 

[artful]

Re: In response to Artful

Yes, these and many other qualities in a D/s relationship are instrumental in a vanilla relationship. I agree wholeheartedly.

In terms of the questions, if honesty and communication are prevalent in any relationship, thereby, aggressive or manipulative behavior should be curtailed or, at the very least, minimized.

Rather than lashing out at one another, the couple would feel comfortable discussing the issues at hand.

Therefore, a healthy D/s relationship should not include any aggressive characteristic as definied above.

I am a bit more awake now and I hpe I am making more sense

I agree with you,...I was confused on how to answer your questions. I was on my own trying to link the agressive/Dom/BDSM/vanilla connection and failed to see how it may have had a connection.

Ya know I luv ya !

 

[Never]

You know, in no way, shape, or form does the beginning article suggest that these aggressive behaviors would happen unless two (or more) people were in competition with one another. As people in a relationship shouldn't be in competition with one another wouldn't either of these aggressive actions be considered signs of an unhealthy relationship in any context?

 

[Lancecastor]

Huh?

You know, in no way, shape, or form does the beginning article suggest that these aggressive behaviors would happen unless two (or more) people were in competition with one another. As people in a relationship shouldn't be in competition with one another wouldn't either of these aggressive actions be considered signs of an unhealthy relationship in any context?

Huh? I don't follow....I don't think the article suggests a prerequisite of competition.

A schoolyard bully, for example, usually has a victim....but that dynamic does not require competition as the causal connection.

And where does it say that two in a healthy relationship cannot compete? Many solid couples compete ferociously in all kinds of ways....sport, business, the tv remote....

Competition does not automatically equal aggression, does it?

~~~~~~~~

A ripping good read, these posts!

I find it interesting how many have said that D/s does not connect to aggression in any way shape or form.

I don't find hockey violent or aggressive in the dictionary sense, though I have a number of permanent scars from my consensual activity in that game.

But I think that if I tried to tell you hockey is not an aggressive game.....I'd have a hard sell.

Lance "Hanson" Castor

 

[Never]

Lancecastor :
"Huh? I don't follow....I don't think the article suggests a prerequisite of competition.

A schoolyard bully, for example, usually has a victim....but that dynamic does not require competition as the causal connection."

A bully (as both and individual and part of a group) is in competition with the 'victim' for social status. The entire article was about social status, what do you think bullying and gossiping is about? You go up, they go down.

Lancecastor:
"And where does it say that two in a healthy relationship cannot compete? Many solid couples compete ferociously in all kinds of ways....sport, business, the tv remote....

Competition does not automatically equal aggression, does it?"

Yes, all competition requires aggression. If you 'win' then someone else has to 'lose', you're expending energy to 'beat' them.

What are they competing for? Are they working against one another? If you have a situation in which both people are trying to get the same thing and remain friends you're going to have stress. I've seen a pool shark play pool badly against her boyfriend, why did she do that? The TV remote isn't all that important, and business, you mean they were both trying to woo the same client?

I'll accept that a couple can compete ferociously for something both of them can shrug off at the end of the day, if they compete for something both perceive as important or even not important but significant at the moment then there will be trouble back at the ranch.

Social standing and friendships are important for teenagers, why else would they kill themselves after being picked on socially isolated?

 

[sexy-girl]

i dont really understand what you are trying to say ... are you saying that every relationship has aggression and that it is better to express that aggression through physical means rather then mental ?

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Huh?

I don't find hockey violent or aggressive in the dictionary sense, though I have a number of permanent scars from my consensual activity in that game.

But I think that if I tried to tell you hockey is not an aggressive game.....I'd have a hard sell.

Lance "Hanson" Castor

This is why I asked about your definition of aggression as it related to this topic. Im my mind there are two forms/types of aggression: physical and mental/verbal.

Physical aggression is or can be either violent, unstable, hurtful, manipulative, unpredictable, FORCEful, or all of the above. This form of aggression carries a negative connotation for me.

This ranges anywhere from grabbing someone's elbow too tightly (purposefully) to striking/pushing/tripping another in a sports arena to hitting out of frustration/anger.

Mental/verbal aggression (as I said this is my working definition, not dictionary/denotatively accurate) is either being bold, verbose, in your face, pushy, going too far verbally, rude, or all of the above. This form of aggression is neutral and can be (subjectively) considered taking a stand or alternatively obnoxious - depending on one's perspective.

This can manifest itself in an argument, disagreement (not the same as an argument), vote in consensus or majority, persuasion, or manipulation.

In neither of these definitions do I feel the underlying motivation is inherent hostility. That put a different slant on the topic, for me. However, that leads us to what my definition of hostility is....*smiles*

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Huh?

This is why I asked about your definition of aggression as it related to this topic. Im my mind there are two forms/types of aggression: physical and mental/verbal.

Physical aggression is or can be either violent, unstable, hurtful, manipulative, unpredictable, FORCEful, or all of the above. This form of aggression carries a negative connotation for me.

This ranges anywhere from grabbing someone's elbow too tightly (purposefully) to striking/pushing/tripping another in a sports arena to hitting out of frustration/anger.

Mental/verbal aggression (as I said this is my working definition, not dictionary/denotatively accurate) is either being bold, verbose, in your face, pushy, going too far verbally, rude, or all of the above. This form of aggression is neutral and can be (subjectively) considered taking a stand or alternatively obnoxious - depending on one's perspective.

This can manifest itself in an argument, disagreement (not the same as an argument), vote in consensus or majority, persuasion, or manipulation.

In neither of these definitions do I feel the underlying motivation is inherent hostility. That put a different slant on the topic, for me. However, that leads us to what my definition of hostility is....*smiles*

Well, of course, it's not like I have the Answers in a sealed envelope or anything, you know...

I found the newspaper article interesting, as it suggests (I think) that both types of aggression that you refer to above....which the organization calls Direct and Indirect Aggression, respectively...are the same.

So, though most everyone here feels there is no aggressive imagery or symbolism or practise in D/s....I look at even a simple element like Hecate's or Never's signatures....and the avatars some use, the discussions of floggings, canings, etc....and find it hard to accept that there is Zero Connection between D/s and Aggression.

That doesn't make us bad....no more than it ever made me bad to knock an opponent on his ass....I'm simply wondering if the Direct and Indirect varieties of Aggression as discussed in the article share much commonality with Dom/me and sub behavior in a D/s relationship....it looks to me like there is a parallel and that's why the article caught my eye.

 

[artful]

sexy-girl

i dont really understand what you are trying to say ... are you saying that every relationship has aggression and that it is better to express that aggression through physical means rather then mental ?

I don't really know who you are directing your enquiry to,...but I will put another penny forward
making it my 2 cents worth.

I think SOMETIMES it might be more USEFUL to be mentally aggressive than physical. Why do I think that ? Because I think more deaths are a result of physical aggression than of mental aggression.
Death being an irreversible condition. (jmho)

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Re: Re: Huh?

Well, of course, it's not like I have the Answers in a sealed envelope or anything, you know...

I found the newspaper article interesting, as it suggests (I think) that both types of aggression that you refer to above....which the organization calls Direct and Indirect Aggression, respectively...are the same.

So, though most everyone here feels there is no aggressive imagery or symbolism or practise in D/s....I look at even a simple element like Hecate's or Never's signatures....and the avatars some use, the discussions of floggings, canings, etc....and find it hard to accept that there is Zero Connection between D/s and Aggression.

That doesn't make us bad....no more than it ever made me bad to knock an opponent on his ass....I'm simply wondering if the Direct and Indirect varieties of Aggression as discussed in the article share much commonality with Dom/me and sub behavior in a D/s relationship....it looks to me like there is a parallel and that's why the article caught my eye.

Lance, would you mind giving us your take (agree/disagree) on the article and why you feel that way?

 

[Ebonyfire]

My thoughts...

Q1: Is D/s a structured way to express the interconnection of indirect aggression and direct aggression?

I do not think so, mainly because I think that direct aggression (active) and indirect ( passive ) aggression are not consentual activities.

For example, I have a 15 year old teenage girl at home. She has said that she is the butt of jokes and cruel pranks by some girls at school. Yet she is at a loss at what she has done to deserve their anger. She is in effect not in on the jokes, and is clueless as to why she is the butt of their aggression. So there is no consent on her part. She is being done to, and there is not reciprocity involved in what is happening to her.

Q2: Is what happens in a D/s relationship really more properly identified or explained not as D/s...but as DA/IA?

Nope. Power is not exchanged in aggressive relationships. One side feels powerful and the other side feels powerless. It is not an exchange. And permission is not given to the aggressor, hence it is abuse.

and if you add the element of intent. Aggressive behaviour has the connotation of malice. IN D/s, malice is not part of the intent.

Just my views in a nutshell. I really hate to type too much!

Ebony

 

[artful]

Ok Ok Ok(Doggone it)Another pennies worth

Lancecastor :
"Huh? I don't follow....I don't think the article suggests a prerequisite of competition.

A schoolyard bully, for example, usually has a victim....but that dynamic does not require competition as the causal connection."

A bully (as both and individual and part of a group) is in competition with the 'victim' for social status. The entire article was about social status, what do you think bullying and gossiping is about? You go up, they go down.

The above situation is OFTEN more a display of aggressive POWER toward a passive person,...most OFTEN there is little resistance or none by the one being bullied-hence,...I can't label THAT as competition.
**************************************************
Lancecastor:
"And where does it say that two in a healthy relationship cannot compete? Many solid couples compete ferociously in all kinds of ways....sport, business, the tv remote....

Competition does not automatically equal aggression, does it?"

Yes, all competition requires aggression. If you 'win' then someone else has to 'lose', you're expending energy to 'beat' them.

What are they competing for? Are they working against one another? If you have a situation in which both people are trying to get the same thing and remain friends you're going to have stress. I've seen a pool shark play pool badly against her boyfriend, why did she do that? The TV remote isn't all that important, and business, you mean they were both trying to woo the same client?

I'll accept that a couple can compete ferociously for something both of them can shrug off at the end of the day, if they compete for something both perceive as important or even not important but significant at the moment then there will be trouble back at the ranch.

Social standing and friendships are important for teenagers, why else would they kill themselves after being picked on socially isolated?

Competition does not equal aggression-There are many instances where people compete in a passive sense against those whereby there are talents displayed,art, writing, singing, timed events, etc.-There are even those who compete against their past performances,...trying to do BETTER.
**************************************************
(My opinions only)

 

[Lancecastor]

Thanks for asking....

Lance, would you mind giving us your take (agree/disagree) on the article and why you feel that way?

..Ms Worthy.

I thought it was an interesting article, as I've said, and I felt there might be connection between Direct/Dom(me) and Indirect/Sub behavior in D/s culture.

Early on, people focused on the words "aggression" and "consent" as key to a lack of comparison or parallel.

From that perspective, I agree with the route the discussion has taken.

I think that the article's suggestion that girls tend to learn/favour indirect, and boys tend to learn/favour direct aggression is likely sound. I can't say I like the dichotomy, but it's probably still there.

I think that mean and women....BDSM-oriented or not...tend to relate to conflict with their partners (and others) primarily via their gender-learned tendencies as suggested by the article.

I think that much BDSM sex play focuses on scenarios where aggressive behavior (real or perceived) is used as the catalyst or vehicle to deliver or illustrate the power exchange. Example: Rape scenes where "No, stop!" isn't the safeword.

Therefore, I think there is a nexus of some kind....and I was hoping we'd muck around in that a bit....

Lance

 

[Lancecastor]

My Freudian Slip Is Showing....

I think that mean and women....

Uh...I meant "men" and women. Really.

Lance

 

[sexy-girl]

Re: sexy-girl

I don't really know who you are directing your enquiry to,...but I will put another penny forward
making it my 2 cents worth.

I think SOMETIMES it might be more USEFUL to be mentally aggressive than physical. Why do I think that ? Because I think more deaths are a result of physical aggression than of mental aggression.
Death being an irreversible condition. (jmho)

i only mentioned what i did because the article seemed to be claiming that the mental aggression girls use such as gossip was worse then the physical fighting boys do

i dont really agree with the article though or see much link from it into real relationships

 

[artful]

I only mean to help but,...

...there does seem to be a lot confusion on the worded terminologies.

I think Direct Aggression and Indirect Aggession are both ACTIVE,...neither being passive as I understand the meanings.

BOTH are forward impacting,...I hope this helps.

(JMHO)

 

[artful]

Re: sexy-girl

I don't really know who you are directing your enquiry to,...but I will put another penny forward
making it my 2 cents worth.

I think SOMETIMES it might be LESS harmful to be mentally aggressive than physical. Why do I think that ? Because I think more deaths are a result of physical aggression than of mental aggression.
Death being an irreversible condition. (jmho)

Rather than EDIT my previous post,...I re-wrote it because I think it READS better this way.

 

[artful]

Re: Re: sexy-girl

i only mentioned what i did because the article seemed to be claiming that the mental aggression girls use such as gossip was worse then the physical fighting boys do

i dont really agree with the article though or see much link from it into real relationships

You know,...you may be right,...but I thought it was an EYE-OPENER to the experts themselves, to discover that the Indirect Aggressive(mental, verbal, etc.) behavior most OFTEN used by girls was just NOW being discovered as being MORE damaging than what they had perceived in the past.

(JMHO)

 

[Never]

Re: Re: Re: Huh?

Lancecastor:
"So, though most everyone here feels there is no aggressive imagery or symbolism or practise in D/s....I look at even a simple element like Hecate's or Never's signatures...."

Oh, I hate outing myself like this but I'm nilla.

The signature wasn't quite my choice either.

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Huh?

Lancecastor:
"So, though most everyone here feels there is no aggressive imagery or symbolism or practise in D/s....I look at even a simple element like Hecate's or Never's signatures...."

Oh, I hate outing myself like this but I'm nilla.

The signature wasn't quite my choice either.

I wondered why someone in the lifestyle (admittedly my assumption) would come across as cold/hard/intolerant/unable to empathize unless they perceived this lifestyle as a playstyle and had issues they were working through.

~I mean no insult to you, Never. Just my take.~

Am I being hoodwinked? Is there more to the maze than I perceive? Is she joking and I am just too NEW to know it? sheesh, I hate looking the fool.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: sexy-girl

You know,...you may be right,...but I thought it was an EYE-OPENER to the experts themselves, to discover that the Indirect Aggressive(mental, verbal, etc.) behavior most OFTEN used by girls was just NOW being discovered as being MORE damaging than what they had perceived in the past.

(JMHO)

None of them must have gone to my high school.

 

[artful]

MsWorthy

I pity the poor soul who would TRY to make you look like a fool !

 

[morninggirl5]

Re: Re: Re: sexy-girl

You know,...you may be right,...but I thought it was an EYE-OPENER to the experts themselves, to discover that the Indirect Aggressive(mental, verbal, etc.) behavior most OFTEN used by girls was just NOW being discovered as being MORE damaging than what they had perceived in the past.

(JMHO)

I really wish there had been more specific information in the article about what research was being referred to. The patterns of Direct and Indirect Aggression and differences between the sexes is something that was discussed in one of my Psychology seminars over ten years ago. This article reads to me like what would be found in Psychology Today.... interesting but not giving enough detail to draw any conclusion about the reliability or validity of the statements.



I've thought about this throughout the day, and i really cannot see where these patterns could ever be carried out in a D/s relationship. The necessity for open and honest communication serves as a natural prevention for the aggressive behaviors. Perhaps when the relationship is in trouble, the aggression (Direct and Indirect) might return but i would consider it to be a symptom of the problems present.

 

[Never]

Artful:
"The above situation is OFTEN more a display of aggressive POWER toward a passive person,...most OFTEN there is little resistance or none by the one being bullied-hence,...I can't label THAT as competition."

It's unfair competition, immoral competition perhaps there is competition involved. Both sides are competing for self worth; one side is increasing theirs by taking it from another person.

Lack of resistance? No resistance? I have never seen anyone just lie down and let themselves be pushed around. No one just sits there and takes it while. Personally, I think that's just a comfortable story people tell themselves – if the victim is a wimp who could fix his situation by lifting weights, eating less ho-hos, and growing a backbone then it's sort of his fault for being so wimpy.

Unless someone's been subject to physical abuse for years or is undergoing serious trauma they don't just curl up in a ball and 'take it'. People fight hard for themselves; they are not 'passive'.

Artful:
" Competition does not equal aggression-There are many instances where people compete in a passive sense against those whereby there are talents displayed, art, writing, singing, timed events, etc.-There are even those who compete against their past performances,...trying to do BETTER."
Okay, I find it odd that you consider two or more people fighting to not be competition but one person typing at a keyboard to be in competition with someone or themselves.

Okay, I'll tackle these one at a time. My mother used to dance and we sometimes traveled to various contests around the state. I spent a bit of time 'backstage' in both dancing and singing competitions and can safely say that gossiping and back biting are alive and well when it comes to singing. I remember one woman had been having trouble with her throat for most of the evening (she was sick, or something was sore or whatever) but had been doing quite well for most of the day. She was singing something or another and her voice cracked in a nasty way, I remember the several women trying to hide their half smiles. Not my mother, of course, she's a saint. (She doesn’t sing either)

Writers? Perhaps you've noticed a certain phenomenon on Lit in which a writer whose story has made it to the top suddenly gets bombarded with 1s? It's not hard to figure out who might have been button happy.

Art. Do you mean 'fine art' or working 9 to 7 graphic artist? For me, competing with yourself is like having sex with yourself. Yes, it's fun, but it's not the real thing.

 

[Never]

MsWorthy:
"I wondered why someone in the lifestyle (admittedly my assumption) would come across as cold/hard/intolerant/unable to empathize unless they perceived this lifestyle as a playstyle and had issues they were working through."

This community has welcomed me warmly; I am ashamed if my words or attitudes have demeaned your lifestyle. I know what it's like to need a place where others won't judge you for being who you are and I deeply regret anything I might have said to make you feel otherwise.



"~I mean no insult to you, Never. Just my take.~"
It is never pleasant to look at yourself through other people's eyes when the view is so ugly. However, I appreciate your being forthright and honest.