Interact 8 -

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interact 8 -

wait...anonamouse is 1201?
hehehe...love that name!

the YIn of the Yang to the POEM academy thread
is I don't roam lit as much as usual and see/visit
others threads near as much!

So when I heard of the Interact I had to research
and found this post curious...there is nothing wrong
with two screen names...

some post threads or comments under
one name and submit under another to
keep the one bombs down..
example: jthserra~
his poems got hit a lot over his criticism
so I suggested/ well elizabetht too that he
critic under one name and write under another.
protects his stories/poems. He and ydd were the
two most posting comments for awhile, they did as
the lizard and changed colors but remain here!
I see nothing wrong with that if votes/ratings
matter that much to you! I'm dense and
Honor means alot more than votes!
so my two names I claim proudly...yep it's me!
(dense maybe?) but my purpose is that my old
computer barely opens my submission page due
to so much to down load on one page...so spread
it out a bit so they'll open and next year after the
survival contest I will delelte a lot of poems/stories.
Keep the best of the best

anonymous...(NOT anonamouse)
protects his poems/stories this way!
I guess, my best estimate...obviously his harsh
words stir writers. so his stuff is not tarnished
by vengence of the one bomb frenzy

well I heard about the Interact...
I came I saw I posted...grin!
Art~

I'm glad you did, but 1201 and the mouse are more like the head and the tail (I'm not sure which is which, doesn't matter, I can do my thinking with both ends of my spine) anonamouse is really a one show.
Go check out the real Interacts also, some real classics.
1201
You impress me.

 

[jd4george]

Re: Re: Interact 8 - Comments

WickedEve and jd4george have always impressed me, both by number and suggestions left on poetry that is outside their syle. Question for them, do you feel it helps you also in your art?

I wasn't around last week, and am trying to catch up. Thanks, 1201.

With one specific exception, I try to coment on any poem that affects me, regardless of style or content. The exception(s) are the plethora of poesy-woesy, crudely written, uninspired poems that appear. Perhaps that is a bit harsh, but you know the kind of poems I'm talking about. At the same time, if a poem is strong, but doesn't personally move me, I generally don't comment.

When I do comment, especially when I am objecting to something in the poem, I try to do so in a kind positive manner.

The reason I have made a conscious effort to comment is due to Tarablackwood. She said something akin to "it is unfair to quietly sit back and receive feedback from these poets without taking the time to comment on other poet's work". She is right.

1201 asked if commenting helped my "art". Yes. It gives me a more critical eye. It keeps my mind a little sharper. And when I coment on a wonderful poem, the "poet kid" in me then wants to write something good.

I've heard from a lot of poets who have said that they don't feel they have the experience (insert almost any word) to make comments. They are afraid that they have nothing to offer. To those folks, I say BULLSHIT! Anyone who comments is uniquely qualified to make that comment. Comments are opinions. I have made comments saying that I thought a piece could be stronger, and yet eveyone else who commented said that it was the "Bard's blood". Does that make my comment wrong? Of course not!

Bottomline, for me: If you want comments, then make comments. The pleasant side benefit is that you might just become a better writer for doing so.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: Criticism as Inspiration

Lauren, as far as your comments go, and your voting goes, you have my admiration, I wish I had more guts to vote less than 100, I rarely do, sinking only to 50, once, twice?
I draw a distiction between anonymous "critical" and nasty anonymous wisecracks. I haven't checked so I don't know, but up until that point, I haven't received nasty. I do have a degree of frustration if anonymous "critical" leaves a point that is of great interest that is worth pursueing, well-end of conversation. Anonymous nasty I've seen on others, it hurts me to see that.

That's something I don't understand.

Of course that to many, writing poetry can be therapeutic, a way of dealing with personal problems and fears. When that is obviously the case, I avoid commenting altogether, because people who write that way are not insterested in critical comments about the poem - they are reaching out for people who can understand them. For people who post here regularly, I don't make that allowance. I trust them to distinguish between poetry (and that's what they post) and diary entries (and that's what they don't). If something is so personal that a negative comment from someone who doesn't sign his or her name can hurt you, it has no place on a public forum.

Fernando Pessoa used to say something to the effect of, to write a poem, a poet must believe with all his heart everything he writes, he must bleed every word, he must truly feel the pain he writes, and then forget all about it the second the words are set on paper.

Now, I'm telling you I come from a comedy background, not a poetry background, so what is obvious to me may not be to you and vice versa. Comedy is born of pain, sometimes poetry is, an exorcism (of ghosts), a reaction to what is around, and god knows, anything is used as inspiration.
So,
I'm sorry if you and some of the others, missed the tongue-in cheek (oh, god, he thinks, now I'm failing as a comdendian), Eve picked up on it (an audience of one, well not a total failure)
So,
What you tell me to get over, I saw as an inspiration, and I thought I did.
Failure on my part (know your audience)
Let's move on (again), the real purpose of this is the critics, I feel bad for leaving less than valid criticsm, i.e Wow! too often, I do try, and hope that some of it is valid and received well. Alot of what I've received has been helpful, some only as validation. AND I treasure the ones that illustrate what I've done (either way) and I like the jokes left behind also.

Let me clarify that I was never upset in any way by what you posted. I know that sometimes people get that from what I say, but those of you who know me know the truth.

I'm oversensitive to two issues that you touched: First, reacting negatively to critical comments - anonymous or not, their validity is the same; commenting on poetry is a difficult and exhausting task on many levels, and no one has the right to rant about comments received. Those who can't take it, turn off comments. Second, ghost hunts and calls to the lynch mob, lashing out either on concrete people (as it happened with YDD some time ago) or on anonymous, whether on threads or more or less addressed "poems".

That your intention was humour was clear to me, but you know as well as I do that there are always reasons and messages behind humour.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: Criticism as Inspiration

T
I'm oversensitive to two issues that you touched: First, reacting negatively to critical comments - anonymous or not, their validity is the same; commenting on poetry is a difficult and exhausting task on many levels, and no one has the right to rant about comments received. Those who can't take it, turn off comments. Second, ghost hunts and calls to the lynch mob, lashing out either on concrete people (as it happened with YDD some time ago) or on anonymous, whether on threads or more or less addressed "poems".

and what are we disagreeing on?
YDD was one of best critics here - I've said so may times - I believe I may have started a thred to that effect.
What I did was invite the anonymous zero bomber to speak his piece and the whole purpose of this thread was to draw a distiction between what is real, honest criticm and what is not.
What I see above is implies something that I have not said, nor do I advocate.
(except for the ghost hunt for the ghost, because they won't show)

 

[twelveoone]

lets kill this thread for now, we have a real person in 7

I want to come back with some examples of "real criticism'

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: Re: Re: Criticism as Inspiration

and what are we disagreeing on?

Probably nothing. Probably just the course of action.

I don't enjoy having my poems bombed by one-votes, and I don't react well to it. I know the relativity of it all, and I'm confident enough in my own work not to care about my scores, but it's always better to have a high score than a low one.

What we're disagreeing on is that when I notice my submissions were bombed, I don't start threads about it, I don't post poems about it, and I don't conduct sociological experiments about it. I simply report the submission to the powers that be and I can be sure that if those votes were bombs and not legitimate votes, they will be removed within a few hours, without making it look like there's some sort of international conspiracy of the one-bomber out to get me.

What I did was invite the anonymous zero bomber to speak his piece and the whole purpose of this thread was to draw a distiction between what is real, honest criticm and what is not.

Why? What does the anonymous, random, hit-whoever-happens-to-be-in-my-path one-bomber has to do with criticism, honest or not?

 

[Christina O. Leigh]

Agreed

 

[Lauren Hynde]

lets kill this thread for now, we have a real person in 7

I want to come back with some examples of "real criticism'

Fine by me.

Again, let me clarify, I was not trying to antagonise you in any way - I know that's how I get across sometimes.

I know what I believe in, and I'm not afraid to be vocal about it - in the boards, in the comments, in life. It may frighten off the spectators, but it never cost me a friend.

 

[flyguy69]

...I know what I believe in, and I'm not afraid to be vocal about it - in the boards, in the comments, in life. It may frighten off the spectators, but it never cost me a friend.

Wow. That is good.

Oops, sorry for blowing into this thread's lungs! Let me press a pillow over its face now.

 

[WickedEve]

Wow. That is good.

Oops, sorry for blowing into this thread's lungs! Let me press a pillow over its face now.

Threads are never suffocated, decapitated or... um... debilitated around here. They simply get old and ugly--so old and ugly that we ignore them--then they die. Oh god! I have a birthday coming up and I'm almost old enough to be ignored! Of course, that has nothing to do with this thread. What in the hell was this thread about in the first place? I forgot.

 

[flyguy69]

Threads are never suffocated, decapitated or... um... debilitated around here. They simply get old and ugly--so old and ugly that we ignore them--then they die. Oh god! I have a birthday coming up and I'm almost old enough to be ignored! Of course, that has nothing to do with this thread. What in the hell was this thread about in the first place? I forgot.

I often forget a thread's subject when I see your av. All I remember is that I want to offer you a job.

 

[WickedEve]

I often forget a thread's subject when I see your av. All I remember is that I want to offer you a job.

Would I be flipping burgers?

 

[flyguy69]

Would I be flipping burgers?

Squeezing melons, lifting buns, licking stamps... that sort of stuff.

 

[WickedEve]

Squeezing melons, lifting buns, licking stamps... that sort of stuff.

How about stomping grapes?

 

[flyguy69]

How about stomping grapes?

I think I'll have the white wine, thanks.

 

[WickedEve]

I think I'll have the white wine, thanks.

The way I stomp grapes may reslut in white whine.
Now that I've said that, I'll say no more. lol

 

[flyguy69]

I need my head examined

The way I stomp grapes may reslut in white whine.
Now that I've said that, I'll say no more. lol

With all that Eve has to offer, I develop a foot fetish! Damn!

 

[WickedEve]

The way I stomp grapes may reslut in white whine.
Now that I've said that, I'll say no more. lol

Oh, jeez... I just saw my typo! Instead of result, I typed reslut. lol

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: Criticism as Inspiration

I'm oversensitive to two issues that you touched: First, reacting negatively to critical comments - anonymous or not, their validity is the same; commenting on poetry is a difficult and exhausting task on many levels, and no one has the right to rant about comments received. Those who can't take it, turn off comments. Second, ghost hunts and calls to the lynch mob, lashing out either on concrete people (as it happened with YDD some time ago) or on anonymous, whether on threads or more or less addressed "poems".

That your intention was humour was clear to me, but you know as well as I do that there are always reasons and messages behind humour.

Just so everybody knows, where I stand regarding critical comments, I pulled up the old YDD thread. This comment associates me unfairly with things I do not advocate. I do not know if the was the intent, but probably was the result. Along the way, I did find various threads about anomous one bombing, etc.
Here is the "poem" in question.
Last Man

dedicated to those that don’t leave names

Standing with my hands in my pocket
outside of Hooper's luncheonette
fumbling for the matches
for my remaining cigarette

Ole man Hooper's got bone cancer
I feel sorry for him
his brother owes the funeral home
Well at least he knows he'll get
nice burial, nice tombstone

and where the fuck's the Penguin been
haven't seen him around
he owes me money, man
hope, I don't have to hunt him down

Oh, yeah
and it starts rainin', a sputtering sort of rain
don't know why it even bothers round here
nothin ever washes away
air never becomes clear

Well,
here comes the Penguin now, water rolls off of him
a smile with tales of sorrow
great, at least I will get, half of what he owes me
and promises, tomorrow

Shit,
I’ll see his greasy ass
curled up in the gutter someday
the rain won’t wash him away

Oh, happy day!
the sun comes out with angled shadows
of nothing at all, and silence
and echoes of emptiness

And
I feel like the last man alive
staring off into the sunset
with a handful of memories
all of which, I'd rather forget

The lines in bold was written and inserted in response to the zero bombing of this in particular

O little one

the day comes expected with sadness
not for things undone
but for the day

it is in the darkness of rooms
we see hope in shadows
with averted gaze

little one

I use grading as a feedback loop, and I realize people can see things that are not there, another poem was pulled by me, because it had poked fun at a person who was having a trouble walking and talking (that person was me) but after seeing a positive comment that refered to it as bluesy, I wondered if someone saw racist overtones in it, not what it was about, and it was a toss-away, written to relieve the tension of a set of intense things I was working on.

Note two things, both of these are remarkably linear, simple.

I don't post poems about it, and I don't conduct sociological experiments about it

I do, and make no apologies for it.
The genesis of "Last Man" was for the thankgiving challenge, I thought the first line was from jd4george, turns out I misremembered it, well now I got something half-written, no place to go. The final kicker was a PM, telling me in effect what they saw in my two "E"'s may have been pompous overblown verbiage (not his words, but that is how I saw it implied) My reaction was don't judge me by one or two things. So I wanted to see what was said about the same thing rewritten. "Last Man" and "Promised Land" are the same poem. Well, to his credit, he saw the joke. I was also curious as to if any suggestions would be made as to how to improve it.

I do hope the bomber at least read it, but I doubt it.

Maybe, I was a little sensitive about that one. Zero bombed, no technical comment, sometimes people deserve an ass-whompin'.

I have no problems with critism, I prefer a name attached.

I don't have much of a problem with zero bombing because I got an "E" - I know what that is about.

My "Last Man" was a coming to terms with a set of perceptions with one stanza for the ghost, and I suspect I may have been ghosted, nasty things using my terminolgy..

Any problems, comments, with what I've done, with what I've said, my stuff.
Here is your chance, here is your shot, but understand exactly where I'm coming from.

 

[Christina O. Leigh]

Casper, the friendly ghost, the friendliest ghost, you know...

I also liked..
A horse is a horse, of course, of course. And, no on can talk to a horse's horse.....yada, yada.....unless it's the famous Mr. Ed.

Yeah, something like that.


I love Lucy?
Changes subject.


Yes, I'm leaving now.

 

[average gina]

Re: Interact 8 - Comments

The real purpose of this thread, has to do with looking at criticism. What do you look for before you leave a comment, what do you see when you receive a comment that is less then a stellar review?
How much are you locked into what you perceive poetry should be, do you look outside your favourites?
What are the comments that prompt you to make improvements.
Who impresses you with their comments? Why?

I want critical comments, just not harsh ones. I am really trying to remember what things I need to do when I write a poem... "show, not tell", break this way for this purpose, etc.

I listen to and make changes based on what makes sense and commonalities. I tend to put the rare statements in the back of my mind. I can tell that I've gotten a little better because I understand what other people have told me.

Though I'd like to think I am open to comments, there are some I will stand up for. The biggest one I stood up for was for "I Screamed At Inhumanity". It came from the inhumanity challenge and I had written the source poem for that a couple of weeks ago. So the screaming and the anger were fresh. I got major flack about breaking it and shortening it. I stood up for it. There was a line on the poem that a person will see on it now that I have removed, but as long as I know that people understand it's intent, I'm sticking to it.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Interact 8 - Comments

Now, I’m the luckiest bastard that ever rode out of town

When I do comment, especially when I am objecting to something in the poem, I try to do so in a kind positive manner.

The reason I have made a conscious effort to comment is due to Tarablackwood. She said something akin to "it is unfair to quietly sit back and receive feedback from these poets without taking the time to comment on other poet's work". She is right.

1201 asked if commenting helped my "art". Yes. It gives me a more critical eye. It keeps my mind a little sharper. And when I coment on a wonderful poem, the "poet kid" in me then wants to write something good.

I've heard from a lot of poets who have said that they don't feel they have the experience (insert almost any word) to make comments. They are afraid that they have nothing to offer. To those folks, I say BULLSHIT! Anyone who comments is uniquely qualified to make that comment. Comments are opinions. I have made comments saying that I thought a piece could be stronger, and yet eveyone else who commented said that it was the "Bard's blood". Does that make my comment wrong? Of course not!

Bottomline, for me: If you want comments, then make comments. The pleasant side benefit is that you might just become a better writer for doing so.

When I got here, I was one of those afraid, guess who tweaked me? I owe alot to her, a few others.

I just may be the luckiest bastard...

In reviewing comments left on my stuff, I've noticed, well, sometimes the comments are just as interesting (maybe more so) as the post.

I wish to put this up, the names are removed; you know who you are. A set:

came back to see and
why the hell I turned off my thermometer is beyond me. 5 damn it
*

a ghost, glued with a chameleon's skin
Now, that's original!
*

1201!!
This is a truly beautiful poem, with so many stunning moments. I admire that the verse you post now is so carefully considered, the words so wonderfully chosen. The last two poems you posted have been so powerful,a thousand times better than that mess you got an 'E' hooked onto.
I find it a bit frustrating that you punctuate strayly. I think you need consistency there - either do it all, or not at all. If you put a comma after "ghost", you have to have one after "am" in the previous line. If you 'comma', you need to 'question mark' and 'period' also. The read would be so much clearer, and smoother.
It also frustrates me that you write flowing verse and then end a stanza with forced minimalism. Again, I think it needs to be one or the other. Such a beautiful stanza as the one that begins with "Did you see me in the cold rain" (which needs a comma after 'ghost'),gorgeous from beginning to almost-end, finishes with an ugly line that does not fit style-wise or euphonically.
It needs to be either:
to occluded streams (with the 's')
~or~
to an occluded stream.
This is truly great stuff, and needs so little more to polish it completely.
*

again
okay I just realized the ghost in chameleons skin was in the part I suggested cutting. Forget what I said, just maybe reduce parts of the initial commentary, but make sure to save the skin
Look I pasted this part of the poem, and I cannot pick out the images I enjoyed, the whole thing is one!

Did you see me
in the cold rain in the forest
as a vague and ugly ghost
a monsterous form assumed
reprehensible, half crawling
with a basketfull of souls
traversing clouded downward slope
grasping for limbs, footholds
slipping on strewn November leaves
to occluded stream

As an old woman would,
with clawed hands in hard water
I try to wash away the smear
of shame and father?s failures
and the stain of stolen hope
that they may be equal
and able to enjoy
the sun, the blossom of spring

~
I agree this is a powerful piece of writing with some intense images too numerous to mention...

I feel like this is in two distinct parts, the first being the poets working through what you want to write and then the poem. I think that you could start here:
"Did you see me
in the cold rain in the forest"
without losing any of the intention and meaning laid out in the beginnig parts. The second half is potent enough to deliver everything written in teh beginning
*

The word
aware makes all the difference.
Great Piece of writing, powerful and honest
Thank you
*

beautiful!
this is so good:
Did you see me
in the cold rain in the forest
as a vague and ugly ghost
a monsterous form assumed
reprehensible, half crawling
with a basketfull of souls
traversing clouded downward slope
grasping for limbs, footholds
slipping on strewn November leaves
to occluded stream
thermometer dependent
*
i'm not sure how i feel
but it hit me right in the heart
*
I don't think there's a poet...
...who hasn't (or eventually will) write a bit of verse about this lament. I really think it IS that universal. Your handling of it was nicely done. One refrain will sit with me for a bit because of its clarity:
"I try forgetting
so there will be nothing
but consuming emptiness"
*
To see or not see...
If life is what you make of it, is it not meaningless?
The poem speaks for itself, there is little I can say.
"a ghost, glued with a chameleon's skin"
One of the best lines I have ever seen.
*
I post this for two reasons:
The technical commentary, if one reads these comments, one sees a reaction to different aspects of the poem. In some cases offering contrasting views.

" a ghost, glued with a chameleon's skin" was in the beginning two smiliar poems, one focused on becoming nothing, the other about assuming roles, none of which I thought I was doing well.
I have seen WickedEve remove what is not necessary, in countless threads. This was the same 15-20 lines, down to one.
In my defence:
I write with a therory of "hinges" the different meaning of one word shifting the meaning of the poem. "aware" is an English word, "aware' is also a Japanese word, a literary term used here also, so fair game.
I feel like this is in two distinct parts, I have a visual image, when I write, this was of a Japanese watercolour, with kanji at the top and bottom and the picture in the middle.

a thousand times better than that mess you got an 'E' hooked onto. and this meant a thousand times more to me than" 'llusions" and your comment meant more than you know, I get so few from good "linear" poets, and you are one of the best.

The other reason, is this was attached to one of the two poems I have a very deep emotional attachment to, as they were written during a time of sharp physical decline, and I was fast running out of money. This "aware" had to do, also with someone saying something very stupid and crushing to my daughter.
Nothing that can ever be said in the future about my work, will ever mean as much to me as this set
Two of these comments, where quite "critical" in the best meaning of the word.
To those who take the time to comment, to those that supply encourgement, to my main ego-prickers( a good thing, Art, I loved your PM, lostand founder, of course Tara, YDD) also; WickedEve, with whom I have a special sniping realtionship, that is a lot of fun, best wishes for a good Thanksgiving
to the zero stomper, one bomber
the bird!...but enjoy it also.

 

[twelveoone]

Calling anonomouse, Calling anonomouse

There are none so wise in the ways of the dumb
Hmmm, there's some that calls 'em one bombers, but I calls 'em dubba-naughts
I got one...
here

LSD
03/31/05 by Anonymous in Los Angeles
This is what happens to your brain on LSD.

Can you give me an analysis on this comment?

 

[anonamouse]

There are none so wise in the ways of the dumb
Hmmm, there's some that calls 'em one bombers, but I calls 'em dubba-naughts
I got one...
here

LSD
03/31/05 by Anonymous in Los Angeles
This is what happens to your brain on LSD.

Can you give me an analysis on this comment?

Well, I'm a little leery of doing this, but despite what looks like a rather inane comment, this person shows remarkable insight here. Note, you never mentioned Dr. Tim's full name here and yet this person was able to pick up on the fact that this was about his last ride on LSD. This is important that they mention that they are in Los Angeles, I shall return to it later. Now what you perceive as a score "00" are really two rabbit tails, so this person, henceforth known as Elmer, is letting you know that the he noticed that you mutated the Easter Bunny into Bugs Bunny.
Th e Eas ter Bu nny wa s Ne X'd out
Oh, when are you going....knows *maroon*
Now due to the inadequacy of your writing, Elmer did not notice the March Hare, which you kind of made disappear like the Cheshire Cat. Otherwise it would have been a "000".
One also can detect a slight whiff of glue on the comment.
I feel Elmer is exhibiting a deep seated hostility to you and is serving notice (after all *maroon* is a registered trademark of W. Bro.) I suspect the wellspring of this hostility is rooted in a deep childhood trauma, perhaps, he was eating breakfast one day, stoned, and he imagined the Trix rabbit coming off the box and kicking his ass. Too much of the telly can do that. So he felt the need to engage in a ritualistic "kill the wabbit" scenario, perhaps triggered by the premature hare loss.

 

[twelveoone]

Wow
You're good, but what do I get out of it?